xjwsforChrist

VOICES SAID

I may not have all the answers to your question, but this is my current understanding.

I just got back from partaking at the kingdom hall of Jehovah's Witnesses. The part that bothered me a lot tonight was that the individual that was on stage giving the talk very clearly and specifically stated to the people in attendance, that ONLY 144000 partake. And made it pretty clear that the rest of us here tonight do not. I never felt so horrified over this, and i've gone previously.

This is a very serious misleading statement. As AGuest has pointed out about John 6:50-51 that ANYONE may partake and that UNLESS you eat and drink the flesh and blood, you have NO LIFE in yourselves. It begs to question: how do Jehovahs witnesses expect to live forever ....lets say hypothetically...on a paradise earth.... if they have no life in themselves?

I was shocked at how much my perception has changed in the past 3 years. I havn't gone to a kingdom hall in 3 years to do communion. I went prior to that though. Infact, i've been doing it privately, 'behind closed doors' so forth. And I must say, I'm really shocked at some of the things I heard the gentlemen say. I'm not a perfect human being, and The Father and Christ, and even some here know how I am but..I had to say this:

First he tried to tell everyone that the covenant is only between Christ and his disciples and 144000. Then he tried to convince us of the 'earthly paradise ' reward that await us (anyone ever see that old movie called The Island?' It sadly reminds me of that movie), which kinda confused me for a while, which I confess, but soon found love as a source of my understanding to clear out the confusion. Then he carefully selected the revelation scripture of the 144,000 standing before the throne, but didn't show the great crowd also standing before the throne. Then he didn't even explain what the 'leaven' is....and why it's not suppose to be in the bread. He called 'leaven' sin....and although that may be somewhat accurate, the real accuracy is that it represents hypocrisy. Although hypocrisy is a sin, leaven is not sin ONLY itself. It is the rising of hypocrisy that develops like yeast. There were more things that I found disturbing that I began to see why it was so manipulative. And the sad part is he doesn't even know he's doing it.

We go to remind them that this is what they're suppose to be doing to gain everlasting life. They are one of the few religious organizations that actually prohibit people from eating, telling them out-right that they are not part of the people that can partake of the flesh and blood of Christ, even though Christ specifically stated 'ANYONE' can and 'UNLESS you eat...drink...you have NO life in yourselves' I went to show publically my unionship. Not out of pride, but to conquer my fear and feeling that I needed to.

I'm not perfect. I was very nervous. The previous times, 4 years ago or what not earlier, were easier for some reason. But this time, I was very nervous. I didn't know what they were going to do. (they didn't do anything) although the brother that passed the bread handed it to me and as i reached for the plate with my left hand and then reached across with my right hand, he immediately had a panicked flinch and tried to take the plate away but realized he couldn't do that and let me eat.) Have the UNLEAVENED BREAD gotten BIGGER? I mean seriously, i had to take like a 3 inch by 1.5 inch up and eat that whole thing. I felt like I freaking was shoving food in my mouth or something cause of how big it was, cause I didn't want to break it in the plate (there were other pieces), nor did I want to 'nibble on it' while they continued passing the bread. Both of those seemed incorrect actions.

The second time was even WORSE. I was waiting and waiting and waiting watching the glass pass from one person to the next and the next...and there was this little kid 10 years old (i know this because he came up to me and started talking to me EARLIER prior to the beginning of the talk). When the wine came. I was wondering if the brother was going to flinch it out and try to take it away from me and have it spill and I was going ot have to get up and ask for the cup again or something in front of other people. But he gave it to me, and the little kid turns and looks at me drinking and goes *GASP* and I passed it. Both times after I had passed the wine and bread...the wine and bread were suppose to be passed back in my direction to give it to the usher...and the person intentionally (I could be wrong) handed it DIRECTLY to the usher, instead of handing it to me to give it to him. Anyway....my experience tonight. Does anyone feel disgusted ..like this disgusting feeling in the pit of your stomach when you enter a kingdom hall?


Me
Who?
Me!
_________________
(*sigh* ahhh...feels so right...and "Voicey")

CHAPPY SAID

I'm sure you were nervous, and I'm sure you had strong reasons for doing so, but couldn't the same be said of every other church and religion?

I guess my point is that I come here to visit. I'm an atheist. I don't particularly like religion, I don't particularly like many of the things discussed, but this is YOUR place where you wish to feel safe. So I behave myself, and really am careful not to stir things up for you out of respect.

I try to keep not only within the rules, but within the culture and expectations of this board. Everyone says they want a place to feel safe with their beliefs, so I don't really debate major things.

I suppose I feel I would give that respect to anyone, in THEIR place, and I don't know why the same is not being extended. I see it as me coming here to stir up a little bit of atheist hell on this forum.

Maybe I could tell myself that I have to enlightened those that are being misled (not saying this, but apparently, that's behind what is happening here). I could see this as a place where those I want to reach are congregating, so it's only right I bring the debate here.

JW's have their beliefs, just like every other person out there. This day is very important to them, and they have expectations for how it would go. You disagree! Well so do I. But even as staunch an atheist as I am, I just would never target JW's and go in and disrupt their thingy.

It's just another way to look at things. You are no longer JW's, and some were never JW's. So why not just leave them alone and engage them in a more appropriate place?

VOICES SAID

Please allow me to address a few things:

The first thing I want to say is I am a former Jehovahs Witness. I felt compelled to go to this religion this time. I have gone to baptists and other religions and spoken to the pastor(s). But this time (when the memorial comes) I particularly know somehow I'm suppose to go. I confess I have not gone the past 3 years ...(before that I was regular). My brother is a circut overseer, and my mom is a regular witness. My brother loathed me for partaking and my mom questioned me thinking I was being 'disrespectful' for going and partaking. Its where the Spirit within us tells/compells us to go that we should go. I have gone to, like I said, other religions. This is not the only one I have spoken to.

God doesn't do anything without forewarning us as AGuest brought out in other conversastions. This organization cannot say 'we didn't know.' Why? Because of the individuals/people who feel 'compelled' to go to show them what they're suppose to be doing.

I cannot speak for the rest here, but after tonight and the talk, I kinda understand a little more as to why and what Jw's are doing. I mean imagine a grown adult, leading a child who is sick with a disease to NOT take his medicine, which will cause the child to DIE.

Now imagine that there's a group and organization that's INVITING people into their location (anyone) and doing just that to EVERYONE and TELLING them, that GOD doesn't want them to take the medicine! Not only that, but implanting that BELIEF system into the subconscious mind of individuals that you're NOT suppose tot ake the medicine, and GOD hasn't chosen you to have this medicine, and in order for you to LIVE all you have to do is be part of that organization. When God sent his son to say 'If you want to live, eat and drink this and come follow me no one else' Why would I, or you, want to sit there or at home and not do anything? For respect of their 'building/organization/house/church/congregation?'

Please understand, I am not trying to argue or debate. I understand you stated your an atheist, but you asked why, and I answered. I feel like you're coming from a 'to debate or not to debate different viewpoints' ....and because you can debate something, you choose not to debate to a certain level 'out of respect.'

On the other hand, that's a different view point than 'to live or not to live.' I'm pretty sure if you felt just as strongly about whether someone were to live or die (say.......from a blood transfusion of your own son/daughter /mom/dad/person you love the most.....but there was an organization saying 'you'll live you don't need that' But the doctor (Christ) was saying 'YOU NEED TO EAT/DRINK THIS') you would probably speak up and say something no? To save their life? Likewise there are many here that feel very strongly about how important it is for people to live. And of course the medicine/blood-transfusion is the flesh and blood of Christ. We and others are Children with the disease (sin) which will cause us to die (death) and the only remedy is Christ and his flesh and blood (medicine)

hope that helps. I need to sleep.
Me

Me
_________________
(*sigh* ahhh...feels so right...and "Voicey")

CHAPPY SAID

I understand you feel very strongly about this, and perhaps even see it as a life and death issue. I too feel very strongly about things. I just don't bust into their homes and disregard what they have set up.

I don't know that this is a debate, but it does puzzle me very much.

If you believe that people are from the house of Israel, and that they are all over the place, in all churches, countries, religions, and whatever else, then why the focus on JW's? Why disrupt their thing?

I don't know. I guess belief gives one certain entitlements, and who can argue with a god? JW's feel that way, and apparently that is the prevailing attitude here too. I suppose suicide bombers, abortion doctor murderers, law makers legislating their religion, missionaries that helped colonize the world, and the town that made Hester Prinn wear a scarlet letter all feel the same. They have the truth, others are wrong, and boundaries be damned, they will intrude without consideration.

As an exJW, I just feel no need to disrupt their night in their house.

I'll leave the thread, because I can anticipate the reaction.

TEC SAID

Didn't realize this thread was to share as well, so I will repeat my post here:


I agreed with Kassad on the other thread... and you too Voices... It was like constant warning against partaking AND damage control to teach others that even if someone does partake, that this does not mean that they should.


I think that makes it even more important to give witness to Christ, among those who are being so inundated with talks that they should NOT partake of Him. Especially since they do insinuate that the '144000' should pretty much be full. No one else partook that I saw, other than me.


Some of the people there remembered me. My friend/study conductor was there as well. She doesn't live here, she just came in for something about her son... and so happened to be here this year. She sat with me. I believe I upset her, but she knew that I was not doing it because I was some stranger who wandered in off the street who didn't know the teachings.

The bolded part is one of the reasons why it is important Chappy. No other church is teaching that people cannot partake. No other people need that kind of witness.

So it is not about disruption. It is about giving witness to Christ... in front of those who are taught that they CANNOT partake, when the invitation is open to everyone. Most if not all don't know that, because the wts does everything it can to shut up the kingdom for those who are seeking Christ.

It is a non-disruptive witness to Christ.

Peace,
tammy

SHIRLEYW SAID

"Therefore, let ALL who are wishing and thirsting COME! And let all who are HEARING... SAY come!"
Come, dear one! Take life's water! It's FREE... and there is NO pain added with it!"


That part of your post put that Song in my head from the KH, "Hey there all you thirsty ones come and drink lifes waters free (or whatever it is) now I wonder how long that song is gonna be stuck in my head, Ugh !!

CHAPPY SAID



I was a JW. It was disruptive. they knew you, so they knew you were making some kind of statement. They will feel persecuted, or gossipy or whatever. Everyone thinks they have the TRUTH, and apparently, it gives them privilege that they would not have in other circumstances.

TEC SAID


Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:18 am Post subject:
What about the ones who are seeking Christ? Should these ones be abandoned, left to those who are telling them that Christ is not for them? Those ones are jws, too. Seeking Christ.

My study conductor told me when we were studying, that if I knew something that had to do with Christ and God and Life... she would want me to tell her... even if it meant that she had been wrong.

(I am paraphrasing... from years ago... I wish that i had remember that to remind her of those words before I left there tonight; but she did take my number and e-mail; I can only hope for another chance)



They have a song that says that, Shirley?

I guess they just don't notice that this song says that life's water (Christ) is for ANYONE who thirsts. He who thirsts... come to me (Christ).

Peace to you,
tammy

JOCHY SAID


Voices, thanks for share your experience. I understand your feeling. I posted my experience in the topic "To partake or not partake", just in case you want to read it. Blessings.

OUTLAW SAID


Quote:
It's just another way to look at things. You are no longer JW's, and some were never JW's. So why not just leave them alone and engage them in a more appropriate place?.....Chappy


The Memorial Invitation is a Public Invitation..
Millions of invitations are printed..
Then JW`s go from door to door,to distribute them
JW`s Knock on your door and even get a little grumpy..
If you don`t accept the Printed Memorial Invitation..

That doesn`t include the friggin harassment we suffer from JW family,to go to memorial..
I told my family I wasn`t going,every year for decades..
They never stopped..

Why would it matter to anyone,if Christians go to a service they`ve been invited to?..
Then show JW`s how it`s done?..
How is it disrespectful to participate in a Christian Service, you`ve been given a printed invitation to?..

If the Christians here got an invitation to a WBT$ Memorial,they aren`t crashing the party..
Regardless of how JW`s want to complain about the guests they`ve invited..
Thats on them..

Now I have to go fix my back door..
Which won`t shut because the lock is broken in the locked position..And..Spring is here..
Which means Large Bears are Waking up and Hungry..
Big Cats are out at night looking for lunch and Raccoons are looking for anything they can get into..
Like the cats food dish in the hallway...

Lucky me..
House repair at 15 minutes to midnight..LOL!!

..............................................OUTLAW

CHARIKLO SAID

I merely wish to remind you all that most churches celebrate Holy Communion regularly, some weekly and some daily. Many Catholics and denominations like the Church of England receive it daily. Some weeks I do. I always do on a Sunday.

I am not special. All Catholics over about seven years old may do the same.

No further comment.

LOZ SAID

Thank you for sharing, Voices. I can identify with a great deal in your experience. As for the Kingdom Hall, to me it seemed so absolutely EMPTY of any Holy Spirit that it was shocking. The oppression of the bros and sis felt almost tangible too, they looked so 'absent' from the whole thing, somehow. And yes, the bread was huge this year, enough to put anyone off!

Loz x
_________________
Don't let anyone put you down, and don't do it to yourself.

YPPUPLLEH SAID

Seems like this thread is sorta merging with the thread on partaking

I'm assuming that "partaking" is in reference to communion with the bread and wine?

I don't think that the Eucharist can be compared across the religious board as each belief seems to have its own take on it.

Some believe there is a physical transubstantiation where the bread and wine actually turn into the flesh and blood.

Some believe its a spiritual transformation.

Some limit the act only to their own church members

Some limit it to some ephemeral number of living people.

It seems that the Watchtower has made it a highly exclusive club as to who is able to recieve Holy Communion. So much that some people take part as some sort of protest.

Rituals are for groups and traditions. The motivations behind them differ from group to group.

Heck in some Prorestant churches they use cut up pieces of wonderbread and not unleavened bread but the symbol is the same.
_________________
Love is a warm rubber puppy...

YPPUPLLEH SAID

Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:35 am Post subject:
"Spiritual Family"
_________________
Love is a warm rubber puppy...

CHAPPY SAID



I haven't read all the comments, but this caught my eye.

As far as the Catholic communion being different, yes the understanding on the finer details is different, but it's all based on the same idea, so it is a comparison. How its done, where it's done, by whom, varies from religion to religion.

My Protestant church used croutons!

Anyway, that is the point I was making. Yes the invitation is public, as it is for all churches, as it was for this site, but if the invitation is accepted, I just think that those that invited us should not be disregarded. As I said, I would not take communion in a Catholic Church, because this is a ritual they greatly love with rules around it and according to those rules, and in their house, I don't take it.

I went to a Protestant church that passed the bread (croutons) and wine (grape juice) once a year, but they would announce that ALL were welcome to partake regardless of faith. So no issue there.

This is a ritual with certain expectations that everyone is aware of, and if they weren't, they are carefully laid out by the speaker. It's their night and their thing. They prepare for it, they try to invite everyone, it is public, but there are still certain expectations.

I can tell you from having been a JW that when someone partakes of the emblems, it's a very big deal. It's very important to them and it is their religion. They will talk about it for months. They will feel upset that people came to protest, and they will feel disrespected. That's why it is disruptive. It was their thing, but they were targeted and their very important ritual was used to make a point.

Pup, it's a BIG deal to them. I just need to impress that on you. I hate the WTBTS, but there are some boundaries. People should be able to have their ritual in peace. There are plenty of other opportunities to protest and make statements. And we aren't talking about JW's making an internal protest, but outsiders and exmembers coming back to disrupt this ritual.