xjwsforChrist

The fact of the matter is, religion is nothing but a set of beliefs.
The moment it becomes institutionalized and organized, it can't help but go "down the drain".
See, religion isn't a racket or a snare, Corporate or Organized religion is.
One can argue that up until the Bible Students became the WTBTS they were doing OK and, from what I recall, that was the case.
They were tolerant of others and they believed in a personal relationship with Christ and that was available to ALL.
The moment that became ORGANIZED was the moment that crap happened.
We can see that pattern in all forms of religion, perhaps no more so than the biggest of them all, the RCC.
From what it was to what it became and to what it is TRYING to return to.
All because of MAN making what can NOT be incorporated: FAITH.

Not getting into the theological debates here, but did want to say that in the last 18 months or so, part of what I've done to convince myself that JWs are wrong is to see what other translations say in comparison with the NWT. Thus, I read, from cover to cover, another Bible, and when I came across something that seemed strange to me, I compared with the NWT, and many other translations. Primarily, I used bible.cc (now biblehub.com) as the way to get parallel translations. What I found was that in some cases, the NWT used the technically correct english words for either the Hebrew or Greek texts, but those words were among several that could have been chosen from.

For example Psalm 37:11 is famous among JWs to "prove" their paradise earth doctrine. The word for "earth" is the Hebrew word ares, which is Strong's 776, showing the root word to be ehrets. Nearly all translations translate this verse to say "inherit the land" whereas the NWT translates it as "inherit the earth". The NWT is technically correct. The word ehrets means "earth, land" (see http://biblehub.com/text/psalms/37-11.htm).

My point in saying this is that NWT in some cases has tried to stay true to the technically correct meaning of words, at least in the Hebrew (OT) scriptures. And by technically correct, I mean that the word used in the translation is one of the definitions of the original Hebrew word, but not necessary the definition generally agreed upon. In the Greek (NT), though, it's a very, very different story. When people say the NWT intentionally changes things, they are not lying. I've seen it myself using the JW's Kingdom Interlinear as evidence of such.

In case any of you happen to still own the All Scripture book from WTS, pages 308 and 309 or the 1991 edition shows a graphical representation the manuscripts WTS claims NWT gets its translation from. Textus Receptus is in there, but it's a fairly small portion. Most of the Greek portion is translated from Vatican 1209, Sinaitic, Alexandrine, Ephraemi Syri rescriptus, Bezae and Wescott and Hort (with, I think, the majority being from Wescott and Hort with quite a bit of eisegetical overtones).

Here's my point: whichever translation we may personally use, there is no way to be sure it stays true to the original writings. Thus, it's useless to say that Catholics have their own Bible, JWs have their own Bible, etc. The fact remains today: each translation is the work of whomever translated it and made it to say whatever they wanted it to say. We get the end result. No wonder Christ denounced the scribes of his day. The scribes since then very much did the same thing.

The question is why and the answer...

To be honest I think it is because people WANT someone to "put the blame" on if they get it wrong and/or they want the "responsibility" of salvation to be on someone else's shoulders.
I think people see it as "too hard" or "too much" work to have to "figure all this out".
So they submit to the authority of Man because "they know better".
Sad but true I think.

.....And we all got caught caught up in it...RELIGION!....some a little longer than others, some still slaves!

Amen!


Love Justmom

Sad, that, isn't it Paul?

Because thinking just to the wts... it looks like some recognized what was false in belief in the world, or empty perhaps... and tried to get back to Christ and what He originally taught and wanted... so tried to get to the truth... but then followed the steps of every other organized religion.

I think there is one thing that we could learn... is that the bible alone isn't gonna do it. Has to be CHRIST. You can have the bible WITH Christ, because He can open our eyes as to what is truly written and meant (mind you, there then comes a point where you are simply learning FROM Him, and do not need the bible... the peace and faith that thought brings is almost overwhelming). The bible can also help others to see the truth or falseness of a claim. But you cannot have the bible without Christ. There are just too many things that our eyes don't see... or as Shelby has said... our eyes tell us lies. (as well as the scribes)

That is why CHRIST is the WORD of God. The living Word of God.


Peace,
tammy

I agree with most of what you said except that I do NOT think the WT had anyone able to translate the original texts and basically used interlinear's and Lexicons to make the scriptures conform to their doctrines.
Christ denouced the scribes because they INTERPRETED passages the way they wanted to so as to manipulate and control the people.
There is no evidence that they falsified the ACTUAL scriptures.
Before the codecs were found ( Sinaiticus and vaticanus, the two oldest) what we had was based on much older manuscripts BUT when we found those two and the dead sea scrolls, the differences were so minor and NONE effected ANY major doctrines at all.
so...

You may be on to something here. Even JWs want someone else to do the thinking for them. How DARE anyone think other than the so-called "faithful and discreet slave". Deep within each person there is a sense: either a sense that something is right or a sense that something is wrong. From the perspective of spirituality, that sense can have a profound effect on a person. Coming strictly from a JW perspective, the GB does NOT allow each person to "carry his own load". This is a big mistake on their part.

So correct
Like I have said before:

The bible is a finger pointing the way to Christ, don't concentrate on the finger or you miss all the heavenly glory.

One of the scariest understandings I received is that IT IS UP TO ME to have that personal relationship with Christ and Our Father.
Not some book, not some group, not some organization, not even those that think they have my best interest at heart, it is on ME.
Scary yet very liberating.

You're quite likely right. They do that today. Just read some of the Kingdom Interlinear... it's a joke because side-by-side, there's the Greek text with the english translation right underneath, then the NWT translation to the side. Sometimes, the NWT translation IGNORES or flat-out CONTRADICTS both the Greek and English. I've seen it. Which is why I use more than one Interlinear nowadays.

YES!

As my Lord told me some time ago...

"The woman you put here with me gave me some (fruit) and I ate."


Laying responsibility at the feet of the woman (organized religion/men/etc)... and also GOD. The woman for feeding them (adam) the bad fruit, and God for putting the woman there with them.

Unfortunately these ones do not realize**... the only one God gave us to follow... is Christ.

No other 'woman'.



But man says that to himself right now... "I'm only doing what your 'representative told me to do... so it is not my fault, but theirs... and yours." Man does that RIGHT NOW, every day, and forgets that Adam 'fell' too.


Peace,
tammy


** edited to add the phrase 'these ones do not realize' ... since oops, that just didn't sound quiiiiiiiite right, otherwise!

Indeed!

Breathtaking, even. (as in steal one's breath with the very thought)

Peace,
tammy

(Smile... at the GREAT discussion - LOLOL!)

What you ALL are saying is generally true (peace to you all!). I wish to share something related... and kinda funny:

Some years ago I and a couple/few others (including dear 'Mom - peace!) were actually contemplating doing a Bible translation based on what our Lord was telling, showing, revealing, interpreting for us. We were initially VERY excited about the prospect! And so I took the matter to our Lord. His response? "Absolutely NOT, child!" Wh... what, Lord? WHY not? I will never forget (the essence of) what he said... and why:

"ALL those who have undertaken to copy the Writings, child, create copies that condemn their authors... and those who follow them. This is because they rely upon their own BLINDNESS to help them "see", rather than on me. They look to the understandings, meanings, and vernacular of MEN... rather than to ME. And so what they produce, in some way or another, is for the purpose of promoting their OWN desires, not mine or the Father's. YOU, though, KEEP LOOKING AT ME. You do not neet yet another Bible version to do, nor do my sheep. Just tell them to look at ME... and I will open the Writing FOR them!"

It was THEN that he showed me what the "scriptures" WERE (Moses, the Psalms, and the Prophets). Because it was then that he showed where Luke wrote as to him opening the scriptures to the EARLY disciples. Those had the Septuagint, but my Lord had condemned much of that compilation. He only used it when relating what was in it to the NON-believers (the priests, Pharisees, Sadducees, scribes, etc.). And to the Adversary. To his disciples, though, he more often referred to what they had HEARD, versus what was written.

Because he KNEW that what they HEARD... was based on the false styluses of the scribes... and NOT on what was originally written.

Anyway, we left off THAT idea, of doing a (more) accurate Bible translation... and quick! LOLOLOL! And have never looked back at it. Given all that I have learned as to what certain scriptures and verses mean SINCE then... I am SO glad I listened and did NOT push ahead with my OWN "desire"!

If you believe you belong to Christ... then just go to him. And let HIM open up the meaning of the scriptures to you. Luke 24:27, 32, 44, 45 All you gotta do is ask... in faith.

I hope this helps, and again, peace to you all!

Your servant and a slave of Christ,

Shellama

Paul, actually, I don't think this is quite right. It's a bit of a Protestant viewpoint, actually, and not so very far from the JW view that it is up to us to keep ourselves in God's love, as they say.

Far from it. God loves us. Each and every one. What WE need to have, ALL that we need to have, is faith, just as Jesus said.

All we need is faith even the size of a mustard seed...and a mustard seed is very tiny. I know! I have a jar of them in my cupboard!

So many people make the mistake of underestimating the all-encompassing power and extent of God's love. It's immense, and pro-active. If we have even the tiniest modicum of faith, which naturally holds the seed of love, God reveals to us again and again his great love, in so many ways, just as Jesus spread his arms on the Cross in love for the whole world.

Don't seek and yearn for mystical experience. His voice and his message and his embrace of love can be recognised in all manner of ways, in experiences, in people, for one of the most frequent ways in which we encounter Jesus is in the poor and the needy, the weak and the vulnerable...and actually even the most objectionable of people may be the very bearer of Christ to us that he places before us.

Furthermore, mystical experience comes upon a person. It can't be sought or captured. Other spiritual experiences from other sources are all too available. We need to be careful, and to guard our soul, consciously placing ourselves in the presence of God at all times, and when we fall, just picking ourselves up again and carrying on.

All we can do is try, and that is more than enough. God sees our intentions.

Hello LQ,

Two versus come to me that I was blown away with in this comparison in then Greek inter linear myself ( the wt own bible) is...

Revelation 5: 9 & 10! To promote their lie and separating the 144,000 from the great crowd in their hope, notice the Greek.

WTBS says " rule OVER the earth ". The Greek says " UPON the earth."

2 Corinthians 12: 2-4. Notice he was caught away to the third heaven.... * paradise ...
Look at the bottom of the reference NWT... * paradise, * or garden of Eden.
Sounds like paradise and garden of Eden are NOT physical. ?? But spiritual!

Just a couple ('you may already have come across this )

Love Justmom