xjwsforChrist

OUTLAW SAID

LOL!!..

You know what would be cool?..
If you wrote out memorial instructions just like you did for me ..
When you were teaching me about it..

Not a lot of people know how to properly do it..
It would be valuable for Christians on this forum..
Who would like to Participate..

.............................................. ...OUTLAW

AGUEST SAID



LOLOLOL! You know what would be coolER, dear one (peace to you!)? If you just copied, pasted, and posted those "instructions" here - LOLOLOL!

No, seriously, what I share individually is usually that (for the individual, based on what we were talking about) and so while the overall message wouldn't change, I have NO idea what I might have shared with someone specifically - LOLOLOLOL!

So, whad'I tell YOU? LOLOLOL!

Peace, my dear, dear friend!

YSFS of Christ,

SA

OUTLAW SAID

Hey Shelby!..

I have no idea where they are..
They`re buried in over a decades worth of posts and pm`s..LOL!!

I`m just talking about in General..
Like how you break the bread ect..ect..
When you went to the KH they had no idea what they were doing..
You go there to show them how it`s done..
Maybe a little infomercial like that here..
Nothing fancy just the basics..

It`s up to you..
Just a suggestion..

...........................................OUTLAW

CHARIKLO SAID

It's perfectly clear. Christ came to save us all, each one of us. His invitation to share in the gift of his body and blood is equally there to each of us, and it's for each person to choose whether they accept it or not. The Watchtower twists his words here as with so much else; all part of their wicked mind-controlling power games.

But I am puzzled. Why do so many of you feel you need or want to go to the Watchtower's own commemoration of Christ's Last Supper, when you know that everything there is warped and twisted, the true meaning obscured? As far as I can see, it really is not in any way any true commemoration at all of Christ's own breaking of bread and sharing of the cup. It's not so much bereft of meaning, but an active attempt to thwart the true meaning of Christ's words. They even deny his true nature! How can this ceremony be anything other than empty words, not even anything as positive as a direct sham? It's nothing.

Granted, God himself can do anything he chooses, and Christ has told us that he is present whenever and wherever two or three are gathered together in his name...but they are, quite explicitly, not gathered together in his name! If they are shutting the door of his universal invitation to almost everyone...and remember that Christ's own instructions were to let even the little children come to him and not to try to stop them...then as far as I can see there really is nothing in this annual ceremony that has anything to do with the invitation issued at the Last Supper.

Shelby, I do see that your motivation is to demonstrate to those present that it is for them, but by doing so are you not also demonstrating your own acceptance that it is what it purports to be? Yet how can it be, because they have twisted its meaning almost to the opposite of what is true?

Even the very fact that the Watchtower performs this ceremony annually demonstrates its emptiness, illustrates the fact that they have created it for their own ends! No other Christian group confines the sharing of Christ's Body and Blood to a merely annual commemoration.

So, I just don't understand how or why anyone would want to go back again to this. Nothing on this earth would make me do so, and I'm ashamed that I went when I did. They use it purely as a means of summarising their teachings and of exerting control over anyone who feels remotely connected to them.

OUTLAW SAID

Chariklo..

Shelby scares the hell out of them just by showing up..LOL!!
Then she does the unthinkable..She partakes..LOL!!!!!..
Then they get to watch her do it the right way..LOL!!..
There is no way those people are going to view her as accepting the way the WBT$ does things..
Trust me I was raised in it..

Shelby is probably the topic of conversation for weeks..
Shes a Freakin Jesus Lady..
Jesus is not a Hot topic in a Kingdom Hall..
I`m laughing just thinking about it all..LOL!!..

........................................OUTLAW

TEC SAID

This year I am also going to go, as long as I am permitted. I don't know if anyone will know me, probably not... but some might start to next year, and the year after. If my study conductor is there, even better, because she cared enough about me to do what she thought was right for me. I would like to be able to do the same for her, as I am able.

But really, it is to DO something that our Lord says to do... listening to Him, instead of listening to men... and showing others by deeds, perhaps even giving someone courage to do the same, even though they are being taught NOT to do it.

In any case, I too was thinking about the bread, and our Lord reminded me that He broke the bread first, and then passed it. So i think that means when the tray comes with the wafers, that I am to break the wafer, eat from one piece, and pass the other to the next person (on the tray I guess; i'm not sure about that yet).



I think that is part of the point. To help show others that the wts does not have that authority, and that people should not bow to them. That we are to listen to Christ, and not to men.

Some of those who are in the wts are lost sheep of His. Christ does not abandon His sheep. So that means witnessing to Him to these ones, even if it is just in this one small way that helps them to answer the call that they are hearing.

Peace,
tammy

CHARIKLO SAID

Thanks, Outlaw! I'm sure you're right, and I'd like to know more about the way Shelby does it!

Still, though, while I do understand the motivation, and it is very good motivation, doesn't it kind of give credence to the WT's own lying ceremony? That's how it seems to me.

But whilst understanding your actions is both important and interesting, Shelby, my puzzlement and questions were really put out there more for everyone. Nobody here, as far as I can see, sees themselves as part of the Watchtower any more. Why go?

There are so very many alternatives. For instance, here in the UK, you can go into almost any denomination of Protestant church and the invitation to take part in Holy Communion is extended to all visitors from any other denomination. The only church in which this doesn't happen is the RC church, but that's for particular reasons and nothing to do with the universality of the invitation. (Not the context to go into that here and now.) I thought the same would be so in other countries. Is that not so? Also, if I have understood you all correctly these last few months, most or at least many of you share a belief in the validity of private commemorations of your own, so why not do that? I just don't understand why anyone would want to go back to a KH for it...nor even why you would participate in Christ's gift just once a year, when that in itself means inherent acceptance of the WT's own twisted interpretation.

That's where I'm coming from with this. The rest, for me, will have to be tomorrow, it's way past midnight here and I need my beauty sleep!

CHARIKLO SAID

Tammy, yes, I take your point, especially as far as Shelby's concerned, and her motivation, but still, as I said, by going isn't a certain amount of validity then inherently granted to the Watchtower?

Sorry if it seems like a non sequitur, I think you and I were writing at the same time!

AGUEST SIAD



Then that is all that should matter, no, dear Char (peace to you!)? My motivation? I think that if folks considered the SOURCE of my motivation they might understand a bit better.


But I DO accept what it PURPORTS to be, dear one, the same as you do for that which you share in: celebrating the death of Christ and demonstrating FAITH in him... and his flesh and blood. What I DON'T support is their mockery of that. I DEMONSTRATE my lack of support for that mockery by doing exactly what CHRIST said I should... not what THEY say I SHOULDN'T. I am doing what there ceremony PURPORTS to be; THEY, for the most part, are not.



What religion hasn't twisted what Christ meant in some area or another, dear one? For example, and please forgive me because I don't mean to offend, but I could say the same thing of catholic confession: Christ never directed us to confess our sins to any clergy... or anyone except God Himself THROUGH him... and to whomever we may have sinned against. While Israel may have brought their offerings before the priests... which could be viewed as a kind of confession... Christ condemned that system or worship... and its features of worship. He virtually replaced them all with a SPIRITUAL fulfillment. And so if we don't understand how it should work now, if we can't hear Christ on it, we have James' words that say we are to confess our sins to one another. But again, that is to the one sinned AGAINST. Because we have no leader except Christ, right, and none is greater than any other, indeed, we "are all brothers," and so each one must be a lesser one, yes? And ALL who have received holy spirit have authority to forgive sins, right? Yet, some have been taught that only a certain class of men can even hear sins... let alone absolve others of their sins.

Even so, how are the people still in THIS group to KNOW that what they've been taught HAS been twisted, if no one ever tells them... if EVERYONE there simply goes along with what they DO... and no one has enough LOVE... TO tell them? Or at least SHOW them? Christ said "Do as they SAY... but not as they DO." They SAY what we are to openly profess our faith in Christ, that it's between the person and God, that no one can say who should or should not partake, etc. Yet what do they DO? DISCOURAGE open profession of such faith, whether in word OR in deed, make all manner of comments about those who DO partake, etc.



Dear one... ALL religions... and particularly all of those who profess a union with Christ do that. Every one of them. ALL of their ceremonies and "solemn assemblies" are empty and a insult to God. I am sorry but that IS the truth. NONE are acceptable to or approve by Him. Yet, people still participate in them... NOT in protest of the error but in SUPPORT of them.

Should not LOVE compel us to share with them ERROR of their empty and solemn assemblies? Yet, most are too afraid... too concerned with rocking a boat or causing themselves or others discomfort. What, though, of trust in Christ... that if one puts HIM first and does HIS will... HE will take care of the rest?



Which is what makes the practice of these the most reprehensible. But goodness, dear Char... do you think they all KNOW what they are doing? Aren't most of them merely blind sheep... blindly following blind guides? And should we not have pity for the blind? Did not Christ have pity for them? Are we NOT our brothers' keepers, really? Even if we are not, if WE want to be shown mercy should we not SHOW mercy? If I treat THEM like an unclean thing... although I know they are... so that I have absolutely NO pity for them... how am I any different then they are? How can I ask for mercy? And mercy has already been shown to ME. Would not love say that I should at least show them SOME mercy... starting with the TRUTH about this matter?

Even so, their's is just one error with reference to the body and blood of Christ, dear one. Some not only allow others to partake but do so WITH them, while KNOWING FULL WELL that such ones are engaging in conduct that profanes the flesh and blood of Christ, among other things. I can't say I see folks running from those in droves. And if we think those aren't unclean... we are truly fooling ourselves.


You can't... but I can... because our motivations are different. Mine compels me not to leave them entirely... until that Door IS shut. It is not. If my entering in among them and partaking of the flesh and blood of Christ causes just ONE to do gain the courage to do so, as well... which can perhaps lead to them hearing so as to be led OUT... or perhaps seek me out later to ask me WHY... and again, start listening so as to be led OUT... then that's all that should matter.

The temple worship at Jerusalem was RIFE with corruption and uncleanness, was it not? Long before Christ came in the flesh. Yet, he went there, did he not? The synagogues were havens of hypocrites and false prophets. Yet, Christ not only went there but read from Isaiah, yes?

They use it purely as a means of summarising their teachings and of exerting control over anyone who feels remotely connected to them.


I realize that you don't understand, dear Char. But you have to understand that some don't understand why you do what YOU do. Yet, it might not be FOR them to, right? As long as YOU know why you're doing what you do then no one else really needs to understand, do they?

My motivation is correct, dear one... because it is borne of love. Love for the One who I am professing, which I am demonstrating in obedience to HIM... and love for the sheep who belong to him who may still be enslaved in that harlot. Just because I recognize what the religious leaders are about doesn't mean I completely write off the sheep. Even Paul and Timothy still engaged in certain rituals (washing and circumcision) that Christ no longer required in order to go back and try to win some still hanging around and in the temple, yes?

I am not "touching the unclean thing" because I do not worship with or in her. I do not engage in her songs and prayers, or say "Amen" to anything her leaders say. If, however, they say that they believe the bread represents the flesh of Christ, and the wine his blood... then I will most certainly partake of it because I KNOW such is the means for life. Christ going to the temple did not constitute his agreement with what the temple system and worship had become. Indeed, like Noah and others, HIS presence and conduct CONDEMNED the systems rejected by God during their days.

It is a public meeting which they SAY "anyone" can attend. My Lord says "anyone" can eat of his flesh and drink his blood.

I am "anyone," dear one.

The ONLY system of worship approved by God is the one that is done in SPIRIT... in and THROUGH Christ... and NO ONE else. It is not done in or connected to a church built with hands... a clergy class established by men... or a religious institution developed and fomented by man.

I realize what I've shared here may sound... "hard." Believe me, I am not being so. I am just stating the truth... and it with regard to ALL religious institutions, dear one. ALL of them.

That some seem to be "right" NOW... does not erase their past and the treatment of God's sheep. I cannot imagine that should the WTBTS change its doctrines and practices at some future time... even perhaps allowing all to partake of the Tree of Life... that would change YOUR mind as to what they truly are... and truly aren't. It shouldn't. With them... or with any religion. There is no "reformation" for them: you cannot put new wine into an old wineskin. The skin will burst. Always has, always does. Always will. Even now.

Again, peace to you!

YOUR servant, sister, and fellow slave of Christ,

SA

JUSTMOM SAID




YES!!!! How can we not WANT to. Our families, our loved ones are still trapped inside that harlot and city.
For myself we will be returning to our home congregation, the one we were disfellowshipped from. It is where most all our family is and EVERYONE always talks and gossips about us so its actually like we've gone to all the surrounding congregations. It will be a 5 hour trip this year as we have just moved down to the Bay Area.

We could go here yes. But as LOZ mentioned no one knows us and it would not have the same testimony or impact. ( they will think we're just invited worldly people who don't know what their doing...REALLY)


It is sorta like the verse that says " A prophet is never received in his home territory." THAT may be so....but we never know. It could be a Nineveh city and most ALL " GET IT" !!! So we go to our hometown in hopes that at least maybe one sheep may receive the message of CHRIST.

I am reminded from the spirit that whenever we are to share a message or go to the memorial, it is to show that as one of their own people Israel... how they are denying their own savior who invites them into a covenant for life....
Instead of actually being PROUD to pass that body and blood over thinking they are still owed life.

The versus I am given are in Ezekiel chapter 3 .....
This is where I am told to " Enter in AMONG THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL who are an exiled people. To speak to them or in this case to show them how they have left JAH. How they are a stiff- necked people, stubborn and rebellious and that they will not listen because of their hearts.
But notice he tells me to GO IN. Not to worship with them but to show them their error and sin.

Also this is where a watchman is sent into the house of Israel. Where they are warned as to their rebelliousness. The watchman because of obeying does NOT have the blood on his hands as being responsible or blood guilty.
So in going in among them and either SHOWING or SHARING it is in order to save lives.

So for me and my family, although the flesh may be uncomfortable, the spirit rejoices that we have the privilege to be able to be called by His name and sent so that mercy may be shown and they come to understand that their salvation comes through one. Our Lord and savior Jaheshua.

Wanted to share
With love JUSTMOM

AGUEST SAID

Thank you, ALL... for your comments. Dear Char, Tec, Sher'f, 'Mom... I know you understand... or will (SA winks at dear Char). The GREATEST of love and peace to you ALL! May the undeserved kindness and mercy of MY God and Father... and YOURS... the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies... and the love and peace of HIS Son and Christ, the HOLY One of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah)... be upon you ALL... AND upon your entire households!

Dear Char, again, we all have our motivations for what we do. That such may not always be understood by others is no reason to deviate, yes? I know you understand. May JAH bless you and yours, dear one... to time indefinite!

Again, peace to you ALL!

Your servant, as I am servant to ALL those of the Household of God, Israel, and those who go with... no matter WHERE they may have been "scattered" to in the four corners... and FELLOW slave of Christ (who will, without a doubt, gather HIS chosen ones AGAIN, from those "corners")... and NO ONE else,

SA

CHARIKLO SAID

I've read with interest and close attention all the overnight comments and I'll respond to them a bit later, when time better allows. But first, I just want to answer yours, Shelby, on the subject of confession.

Just as I can see that my own puzzlement, as I expressed it last night, is born of my inadequate understanding of the JW position...I tend to forget for how long and how thoroughly so many of you were immersed in the WT ...so your view of so much that is part of the R.C. Church springs likewise from insufficient understanding.

You described beautifully the common misunderstanding of the sacrament of confession. You're quite correct. The only person to whom we should confess is God. You understand and believe that, and so do I. So does the Catholic Church. The only person we DO confess to is God, and you might think that all we need to do is just say sorry to God, and that's true! The Church too teaches exactly that! And every Catholic child is taught that too!

You have in your mind that when a person goes through the process of Confession they go into that box you see in the films and they are telling the priest. It looks like that, doesn't it? But the person they are talking to is Christ. In this particular instance, though, they are doing so aloud, THROUGH the person of the priest. They speak TO Christ THROUGH the priest.

"Oh!" You probably say, "they don't need to do that, they only need to tell God inside their head, privately."

True. That's the most important thing, and that's what they DO do...FIRST. That's all they HAVE to do. BUT not everyone finds that easy, and not everyone has the insight to understand themselves and their own heart. Many people, indeed, condemn themselves and suffer agonies of totally unnecessary guilt, either for things they needn't blame themselves for or things they can't forgive themselves for. That's why psychiatrists do such a roaring trade!

The priest assures the person of the totality of God's forgiveness. When a person has gone through the ritual of confessing through a priest, he KNOWS he is forgiven. The priest hasn't forgiven him. God did that, Christ did that before he ever began that process. God forgives us the moment we are truly sorry. But, especially for those who have a hard time forgiving themselves, once they've gone through that process, they KNOW, deep down in their heart, they're forgiven. There is a profound experience of great joy and release. Also, the priest is unshockable and very experienced, and can often give very good advice. It is very often a very very valuable healing experience, and totally, completely private. The encounter is, in every way, for both participants, with God. Naturally, as one would expect, it's been the subject of much simplification and caricature in movie after movie. Those who are Catholic understand it, and those who don't and have their own existing theological objections don't.

BTW, the confession box, while it still exists in most places, is very far from being the only place it takes place. Next week our parish, like so many all over the world, will have what's called a Penitential Service, half a dozen priests will come from neighbouring parishes and will sit in various places round the church, one in the "box", one in a separate room, and the others just sitting quietly out of earshot round the church. People choose firstly if they want to go at all, and secondly where and to whom they'll go, if at all. I shall go to one who will just be sitting on a chair, with another chair next to him. He's a young man and I am a grandma! But I know him as deeply spiritual, with insight and intelligence and kindness, his advice is very sound, and he has been of immeasurable help to me in coming out of the trauma of the WT.

For me, as for so many, the whole process is just another grace from a loving God. For you, with different life experience and different theological education and understanding, it's something that seems anything but. Yet here we are, I believe and am sure, the very best of dear friends! that's how I feel and how I see things. I rejoice in my faith and in yours, for we both...indeed ALL of us here... know and love God our Heavenly Father and Christ his Son.

Oh! One last thing! Please don't think the sacrament of confession is exclusive to the RC church. Far from it. All in the Catholic tradition have the same facility. It's all done in the context of forgiveness, and has none of the punitive condemnatory culture of the Watchtower.

TEC SAID



I put this on jwn, so I'll put it here to, and hope that helps explain a bit.

I am going to the memorial... TO partake.

The invitation to life is open to all. Christ speaks to all, calls all, invites all, hopes for all to answer.

But there is another voice (the voice of a stranger; the voice of the harlot) telling people that Christ is NOT speaking to you. Christ is NOT inviting you. Christ is NOT calling you. His invitation to life is NOT open to you.

All of this is a lie.

I know there are some who think that by going you are showing those present that the wts must be right.

But those present already believe this.

By going and partaking (say yes to Christ and to life), then they are a) proclaiming Christ before men, and b) rejecting the false teaching of the wts, and listening to Christ instead.


They are actually witnessing to the Truth (and to those who do not know and so need the witnessing), and sometimes that is all that is needed to help someone else answer the call that they are hearing... even if that call is very faint due to them also listening to the 'loud voice of the boisterous woman'. Christ does not abandon His sheep, including those who are in the wts.

Peace,
tammy

CHARIKLO SAID

es, I understand, Tammy.

Thank you. I was genuinely puzzled, I meant no offence.

TEC SAID

I know you meant no offense. I would not even think it

Peace to you,
tammy