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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:58 am 
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GLTIREBITER SAID

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the scientific method is based on results that center around our senses or what we can measure. Spiritual things work on a different plane...



LeAnn touches on an important point. The scientific method uses measurements and observations of material things--matter, energy, space and time--to test proposed models for understanding that material realm. (More precisely, science does not prove the truth of those models in an absolute sense--rather it attempts to disprove those models, accepting those that continue to withstand refutation as usable models for the physical universe...but that topic would be best reserved for another thread). This means those scientific models are restricted to the realm of material, so that the model's predictions can be confirmed or refuted using those material measurements and observations. When somebody claims to apply "Scientific Reasoning" to things outside the material realm, what they are doing is not genuine science; they have taken a system that properly applies to a limited realm--that of material--and claim it applies to things outside its scope.

Those who do so often assume that the material realm is the only realm--that nothing else exists. This is a philosophy known as materialism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), which is not the same thing as science (though many materialists believe it is).

Religion (spirituality) is compatible with science; the conflict is with materialism!


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:59 am 
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GLADIATOR SAID

This is an interesting first post GLTirebiter, welcome to the forum.

I think I follow what you are saying. Science works to disprove material models and see if they hold up to scrutiny. That does not mean they dismiss the existence of other dimensions.

There is a possibility that as we learn more about the material world, concepts that we presently call spiritual may be found to be a part of the physical universe. As we discover how interconnected the universe really is, we may discover that the separation of material and spiritual may turn out to be a man made distinction. I am not a scientist and have no fixed spiritual beliefs but maintain an interest in developments.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:00 am 
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LEANN SAID

Hey thanks for joining the discussion TireBiter.. Found your comment about Scientific method insightful.

When you assume truth based on not being able to prove otherwise, it sure leaves a lot of possibilites.

Hope to hear more from you.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:00 am 
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LEANN SAID

Gladiator,

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As we discover how interconnected the universe really is, we may discover that the separation of material and spiritual may turn out to be a man made distinction



Agreed.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:00 am 
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QUENDI SAID

My own interest in science goes all the way back to my early boyhood. As early as the age of seven I read books on astronomy. From there I progressed to physics and paleontology. But my real love and passion lay with mathematics, and my love affair with it has been going on for half a century now and shows no sign of letting up. I count it one of the great blessings in my life to hold a degree in mathematics and I wouldn't trade it for anything.

I have done original research in mathematics as well and that research led to interesting discussions with my fellows. Some of them were atheists and I well remember a talk I had with one of them which was conducted in a spirit of honest inquiry and deep respect for each other's views.

My colleague could not understand how I could reconcile a belief in God with a life in science. He told me that by accepting the existence of God, a person would then have no reason to investigate anything because an ultimate answer had been reached and this was the antithesis of what science was all about.

I replied that just because I believed in God did not mean that I wasn't curious about how he created the Universe and that mathematics held the key to understanding many of its wonders. I wanted to know God's thoughts as revealed in mathematics and this gave me the drive to study and learn. My friend wasn't entirely satisfied with this reply and said, "I think that attitude would damage any mathematician's capacity to do original research, don't you?"

"Well," I said, "that belief didn't hurt Isaac Newton!"

Upon hearing that, my friend smiled, laughed, and clapped me on the shoulder and said, "That was a great answer. I understand you a little better now." We parted friends and have remained so down to this day.

Quendi
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:04 am 
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AGUEST SAID

I love this thread (peace to you, all!). Dear Quendi... peace to you and I know this is going to sound weird, but... no, wait, I will copy an excerpt from a post I did on JWN that I think speaks to what you're talking about. I was responding to NVL (EP) and GaryNeal (peace to you, dear one!) regarding something I heard when I was seeing the "birth" of the physical universe. I had mentioned being in a black void, and EP wanted more information. So he asked what I mean by "void", and I responded:

"I can only explain by sharing what I saw/experienced: I was in a "place" that was pitch black and absolutely empty. Absolutely. There was nothing in it: no air, no dust, no sound, no space (i.e., although it was vast, it felt sort of closed in on me and, well, dense). Nothing. But me and darkness. There are instruments in this world that can measure down to photons and quarks, etc., maybe even smaller, if that's possible - I don't know. If man's instruments could measure what was present where I was, besides me... it would measure absolutely nothing. NO particles, NO force... electromagnetic, gravitational... or otherwise. No sound, soundwaves... or waves of any kind. There was absolutely nothing. Yet, some "speech" came through that darkness... a voice... immediately after which (virtually at the same time, but just a mini-nanosecond afterward) came the light... immediately after which came what came after the light. THROUGH the light.

"And I heard the speech. Clearly. And it was not English... or Hebrew, Aramaic, etc. It was not in any of "earthling man's" languages at all, ancient or modern. It was not a voice "with words." Rather, the ONLY way I can explain it is that it was a language of... well, the ONLY words I can use... and these are NOT accurate... is, well, "numbers" isn't accurate. Nor is "equations." Nor is "math." But those are the only words I know of to try and explain it. It was a language that seemed to be something LIKE numbers/equations/math... but was not. It was a literal language and the speech... voice... was literal. I heard it... plainly... and was able to understand it, because by the time it reached ME... something IN me... was able to "decipher"... "interpret" it. So that I absolutely understood it. It was not loud, it was not soft, it was not booming, it was not whispered. It just was.
"

Prior to this I knew... but this totally proved it for me... that our universe is based on some kind of numbers/"math"... of some kind. My understanding is that if we understood the "math"... we would understand almost everything; however, it is "math" that is SO far advanced from us, right now, we can't know it, at least not on our own. Can a supercomputer get us there? Not yet, as far as I know.

Anyway, just wanted to share that with you and say there doesn't HAVE to be a division science and spirituality, the physical and spiritual. Indeed, there wasn't always... and won't be again, one day. Because the PURPOSE of the kingdom of God... is to bring together AGAIN... the things in the heavens (spirit realm) and the things on earth (the physical realm). So that God's will... may be done in BOTH.

For that reason only, I understand John's plea:

"Come... Lord JAHESHUA!"

Again, peace to you all!
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:04 am 
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NAMBO SAID

I never have any problem with science, its the scientists and their worldview and motivations I do not trust.

Here for instance you can read how they are becoming aware that animals, rather than just being biological mechanisms on which its therefore moral to subject to the horrors of experimentation, that as we have always known, animals are conscious beings.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/ani ... ous-beings

It seems some scientists themselves are questioning their own religion:-

The ‘scientific worldview’ is immensely influential because the sciences have been so successful. They touch all our lives through technologies and through modern medicine. Our intellectual world has been transformed by an immense expansion of knowledge, down into the most microscopic particles of matter and out into the vastness of space, with hundreds of billions of galaxies in an ever-expanding universe.

Yet in the second decade of the twenty-first century, when science and technology seem to be at the peak of their power, when their influence has spread all over the world and when their triumph seems indisputable, unexpected problems are disrupting the sciences from within. Most scientists take it for granted that these problems will eventually be solved by more research along
established lines, but some, including myself, think they are symptoms of a deeper malaise.

In this book, I argue that science is being held back by centuries-old assumptions that have hardened into dogmas. The sciences would be better off without them: freer, more interesting, and more fun.

The biggest scientific delusion of all is that science already knows the answers. The details still need working out but, in principle, the fundamental questions are settled.

Contemporary science is based on the claim that all reality is material or physical. Th ere is no reality but material reality. Consciousness is a by-product of the physical activity of the brain. Matter is unconscious. Evolution is purposeless. God exists only as an idea in human minds, and hence in human heads.

These beliefs are powerful, not because most scientists think about them critically but because they don’t. The facts of science are real enough; so are the techniques that scientists use, and the technologies based on them. But the belief system that governs conventional scientific thinking is an act of faith, grounded in a nineteenth-century ideology.

This book is pro-science. I want the sciences to be less dogmatic and more scientific. I believe that the sciences will be regenerated when they are liberated from the dogmas that constrict them.
The scientific creed

Here are the ten core beliefs that most scientists take for granted.

Everything is essentially mechanical. Dogs, for example, are complex mechanisms, rather than living organisms with goals of their own. Even people are machines, ‘lumbering robots’, in Richard Dawkins’s vivid phrase, with brains that are like genetically programmed computers.
All matter is unconscious. It has no inner life or subjectivity or point of view. Even human consciousness is an illusion produced by the material activities of brains.
The total amount of matter and energy is always the same (with the exception of the Big Bang, when all the matter and energy of the universe suddenly appeared).
The laws of nature are fixed. They are the same today as they were at the beginning, and they will stay the same for ever.
Nature is purposeless, and evolution has no goal or direction.
All biological inheritance is material, carried in the genetic material, DNA, and in other material structures.
Minds are inside heads and are nothing but the activities of brains. When you look at a tree, the image of the tree you are seeing is not ‘out there’, where it seems to be, but inside your brain.
Memories are stored as material traces in brains and are wiped out at death.
Unexplained phenomena like telepathy are illusory.
10. Mechanistic medicine is the only kind that really works.

Together, these beliefs make up the philosophy or ideology of materialism, whose central assumption is that everything is essentially material or physical, even minds. This belief-system became dominant within science in the late nineteenth century, and is now taken for granted. Many scientists are unaware that materialism is an assumption: they simply think of it as science, or the
scientific view of reality, or the scientific worldview. They are not actually taught about it, or given a chance to discuss it. They absorb it by a kind of intellectual osmosis.

In everyday usage, materialism refers to a way of life devoted entirely to material interests, a preoccupation with wealth, possessions and luxury. These attitudes are no doubt encouraged by the materialist philosophy, which denies the existence of any spiritual realities or non-material goals, but in this book I am concerned with materialism’s scientific claims, rather than its eff ects on lifestyles.

In the spirit of radical scepticism, I turn each of these ten doctrines into a question. Entirely new vistas open up when a widely accepted assumption is taken as the beginning of an enquiry, rather than as an unquestionable truth. For example, the assumption that nature is machine-like or mechanical becomes a question: ‘Is nature mechanical?’ The assumption that matter is unconscious becomes ‘Is matter unconscious?’ And so on.

In the Prologue I look at the interactions of science, religion and power, and then in Chapters 1 to 10, I examine each of the ten dogmas. At the end of each chapter, I discuss what difference this topic makes and how it affects the way we live our lives. I also pose several further questions, so that any readers
who want to discuss these subjects with friends or colleagues will have some useful starting points. Each chapter is followed by a summary.
The credibility crunch for the ‘scientific worldview’

For more than two hundred years, materialists have promised that science will eventually explain everything in terms of physics and chemistry. Science will prove that living organisms are complex machines, minds are nothing but brain activity and nature is purposeless. Believers are sustained by the faith that scientific discoveries will justify their beliefs. The philosopher of science
Karl Popper called this stance ‘promissory materialism’ because it depends on issuing promissory notes for discoveries not yet made. Despite all the achievements of science and technology, materialism is now facing a credibility crunch that was unimaginable in the twentieth century.

In 1963, when I was studying biochemistry at Cambridge University, I was invited to a series of private meetings with Francis Crick and Sydney Brenner in Brenner’s rooms in King’s College, along with a few of my classmates. Crick and Brenner had recently helped to ‘crack’ the genetic code. Both were ardent materialists and Crick was also a militant atheist. They explained there were
two major unsolved problems in biology: development and consciousness. They had not been solved because the people who worked on them were not molecular biologists – or very bright. Crick and Brenner were going to find the answers within ten years, or maybe twenty. Brenner would take developmental biology, and Crick consciousness. They invited us to join them.

Both tried their best. Brenner was awarded the Nobel Prize in 2002 for his work on the development of a tiny worm, Caenorhabdytis elegans. Crick corrected the manuscript of his final paper on the brain the day before he died in 2004. At his funeral, his son Michael said that what made him tick was not the desire to be famous, wealthy or popular, but ‘to knock the final nail into the coffin of vitalism’. (Vitalism is the theory that living organisms are truly alive, and not explicable in terms of physics and chemistry alone.)

Crick and Brenner failed. The problems of development and consciousness remain unsolved. Many details have been discovered, dozens of genomes have been sequenced, and brain scans are ever more precise. But there is still no proof that life and minds can be explained by physics and chemistry alone (see Chapters 1, 4 and .

The fundamental proposition of materialism is that matter is the only reality. Therefore consciousness is nothing but brain activity. It is either like a shadow, an ‘epiphenomenon’, that does nothing, or it is just another way of talking about brain activity. However, among contemporary researchers in neuroscience and consciousness studies there is no consensus about the nature of minds. Leading journals such as Behavioural and Brain Sciences and the Journal of Consciousness Studies publish many articles that reveal deep problems with the materialist doctrine. The philosopher David Chalmers has called the very existence of subjective experience the ‘hard problem’. It is hard because it defies explanation in terms of mechanisms. Even if we understand how eyes and brains respond to red light, the experience of redness is not accounted for.

In biology and psychology the credibility rating of materialism is falling. Can physics ride to the rescue? Some materialists prefer to call themselves physicalists, to emphasise that their hopes depend on modern physics, not nineteenth-century theories of matter. But physicalism’s own credibility rating has been reduced by physics itself, for four reasons.

First, some physicists insist that quantum mechanics cannot be formulated without taking into account the minds of observers. They argue that minds cannot be reduced to physics because physics presupposes the minds of physicists.

Second, the most ambitious unified theories of physical reality, string and M-theories, with ten and eleven dimensions respectively, take science into completely new territory. Strangely, as Stephen Hawking tells us in his book The Grand Design (2010), ‘No one seems to know what the “M” stands for, but it may be “master”, “miracle” or “mystery”.’ According to what Hawking calls ‘model-dependent realism’, different theories may have to be applied in different situations. ‘Each theory may have its own version of reality, but according to model-dependent realism, that is acceptable so long as the theories agree in their predictions whenever they overlap, that is, whenever they can both be applied.’

String theories and M-theories are currently untestable so ‘model-dependent realism’ can only be judged by reference to other models, rather than by experiment. It also applies to countless other universes, none of which has ever been observed. As Hawking points out,

M-theory has solutions that allow for different universes with different apparent laws, depending on how the internal space is curled. M-theory has solutions that allow for many different internal spaces, perhaps as many as 10500, which means it allows for 10500 diff erent universes, each with its own laws … The original hope of physics to produce a single theory explaining the apparent laws of our universe as the unique possible consequence of a few simple assumptions may have to be abandoned.

Some physicists are deeply sceptical about this entire approach, as the theoretical physicist Lee Smolin shows in his book The Trouble with Physics: The Rise of String Theory, the Fall of a Science and What Comes Next (2008). String theories, M-theories and ‘modeldependent realism’ are a shaky foundation for materialism or physicalism or any other belief system, as discussed in Chapter 1.

Third, since the beginning of the twenty-first century, it has become apparent that the known kinds of matter and energy make up only about four per cent of the universe. The rest consists of ‘dark matter’ and ‘dark energy’. The nature of 96 per cent of physical reality is literally obscure (see Chapter 2).

Fourth, the Cosmological Anthropic Principle asserts that if the laws and constants of nature had been slightly different at the moment of the Big Bang, biological life could never have emerged, and hence we would not be here to think about it (see Chapter 3). So did a divine mind fine-tune the laws and constants in the beginning? To avoid a creator God emerging in a new guise, most leading cosmologists prefer to believe that our universe is one of a vast, and perhaps infinite, number of parallel universes, all with different laws and constants, as M-theory also suggests. We just happen to exist in the one that has the right conditions for us.

This multiverse theory is the ultimate violation of Occam’s Razor, the philosophical principle that ‘entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity’, or in other words, that we should make as few assumptions as possible. It also has the major disadvantage of being untestable. And it does not even succeed in getting rid of God. An infinite God could be the God of an infinite number of universes.

Materialism provided a seemingly simple, straightforward worldview in the late nineteenth century, but twenty-first-century science has left it behind. Its promises have not been fulfilled, and its promissory notes have been devalued by hyperinflation.

I am convinced that the sciences are being held back by assumptions that have hardened into dogmas, maintained by powerful taboos. These beliefs protect the citadel of established science, but act as barriers against open-minded thinking.

Source http://www.wariscrime.com/2012/08/15/ne ... n-science/


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:05 am 
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QUENDI SAID

@ AGuest: What an interesting vision you related to us! It reminds me of what Galileo Galilei wrote: "Mathematics is the alphabet with which God has written the Universe."

@ Nambo: My friend, I am honored and humbled to have met you here. Your statement was so lucid and I will certainly obtain the American edition of your book. In addition, I would like to correspond with you in private. If you will PM your e-mail address to me, I will be very happy.

Quendi
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:05 am 
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PAULSACRAMENTO SAID

The worse thing to happen to science was scientists tying it to naturalisim or any type of "issim".
Science is about observing nature and commenting on the "how to's".
Science tells us that water is comprised of Hydrogen and Oygen ( H20) and tells us why those tow agents make water.
It doesn't tells us anything about water other than that.
It doesn't tell us what we find the beach or a waterfall a beautiful thing or why we put blades on and skate on water when it is frozen and it doesn't tell us why we have water, just what water is and how it comes to be.

Science is also limited to not only the observable world, but the observable world that is limited to our ability to perceive it.

I recall how some scientists were against the "big bang theory", even after it was shown to be the best possible solution to the evidence being presented and they were against it because it was a bit too inclined to "God".
Hardly open minded I think.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:06 am 
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AGUEST SAID

Quote:
Quote:
"Mathematics is the alphabet with which God has written the Universe."



YES, only it was much more advanced than "math", IMHO, dear Quendi (peace to you, dear one... and if I haven't stated it already... WELCOME!). It was a "language" that I can only describe in OUR [currently very limited language] as something "like" math. It wasn't numbers, or equations, etc., as we now KNOW them, but I have NO doubt that our numbers/equations/ math are [very] primitive forms of what this is. Our "language" is like "baby-talk" compared to what I heard... and perceived it to be.

Quote:
Quote:
Science is also limited to not only the observable world, but the observable world that is limited to our ability to perceive it.



Sometimes the statements that are made... no words. Except perhaps "sublime". Thank you for that, dear P... and the greatest of love and peace to you!

A slave of Christ,

SA, who is loving this thread... and the fact we can have the discussion without malice, hostility, disdain, ridicule, etc. Thank you, ALL!


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:06 am 
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NAMBO SAID

Quote:
Quendi wrote:


@ Nambo: My friend, I am honored and humbled to have met you here. Your statement was so lucid and I will certainly obtain the American edition of your book. In addition, I would like to correspond with you in private. If you will PM your e-mail address to me, I will be very happy.

Quendi



Goodness Quendi, I hope you dont think I wrote that?
I did state "Source" at the bottom and the link.

When my book comes out it wont be about science, it will be about the effects of Child abuse and my Halcyon days in a Childrens home.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:06 am 
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QUENDI SAID

@ Nambo: I followed the link but still thought you had written the material and overlooked the fact that you pointed to another source. Thanks for the clarification. I'd still like to correspond privately, so if you will PM your e-mail address, I'd appreciate it.

Quendi
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:07 am 
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QUENDI SAID

I'd like to second the thought already expressed that we have had this discussion without the rancor and bitterness that I have seen this topic excite elsewhere. I have always thought it very sad that many who have labored in the vineyard of science or have pursued it as an avocation and fought so hard for the right to espouse thinking like evolution have then denied that same freedom of expression to those who hold a contrary view.

Frankly, I don't understand where that arises. For if we have been persecuted, ridiculed or restricted in some way for holding views which others cannot or will not endorse, we cannot then practice that same intolerance and deny liberty to others. Yet we see this kind of intolerance becoming more prevalent in the scientific community. The evolution/creation/intelligent design fight is perhaps the most public, but there are other debates raging in which intolerance and the fierce defense of orthodoxy play prominent roles.

The image many scientists project is that of the impartial and dispassionate researcher, docilely going wherever fact leads him or her. The reality is often far otherwise. Some enter a research project with bias firmly implanted. Others discover that reality is not what they expect or want, thus upsetting their egos. Then there are glittering prizes to win such as fame, funding and college chairs. There are teaching/research positions at prominent universities, laboratories and scientific institutions to be had. Competition for these awards is savage and it has often been said that academic politics is far more vicious than what is seen in the realms of government and business.

However that may be, it is my fervent hope that no matter how passionately we believe something, when we participate in a discussion here we will remember that we're talking about these issues with friends and not opponents or adversaries. In the end we may find that all we can do is to agree to disagree. In a case like that, let us do so amicably and thus promote the peace we hope to find in this forum.

Quendi
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:07 am 
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AGUEST SAID

Quote:
Quote:
if we have been persecuted, ridiculed or restricted in some way for holding views which others cannot or will not endorse, we cannot then practice that same intolerance and deny liberty to others. Yet we see this kind of intolerance becoming more prevalent in the scientific community.


It is the way of man, in general, dear Q (peace to you!): to dominate his fellow man in some way, size, shape, or form. In this instance, the "[I think] I know better/more than you (and perhaps such ones does), and so [I don't think] you are worthy of discussing this with me and won't hesitate to let you know that." It's a form of power and domination... and occurs in every area, walk, and ilk. It has its roots in hypocrisy and fear... and, unfortunately, because of its dogma, actually foments more division, even hatred (perhaps of a different kind, but hatred all the same)... that many will admit.

Quote:
Quote:
In the end we may find that all we can do is to agree to disagree.



Which can only happen if one can ALLOW oneself... and others... to do this. I found elsewhere this apparently isn't easy for some to do. I appreciate that YOU wish to, though... and hope everyone else here has the STRENGTH to also do so.

Quote:
Quote:
In a case like that, let us do so amicably and thus promote the peace we hope to find in this forum.



Indeed. Amen... and amen!

Again, peace to you!
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Paz a todos!

Su sirviente, compañera de estudios, y un esclava de Cristo,

SA


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:08 am 
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? SAID

For anyone interested in seeing how the Bible can be reconciled with science this is a VERY GOOD site:


http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... _real.html


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