xjwsforChrist

OUTLAW SAID

AnnB..

In the 1st instance
The people who were there..
Forgot what they preached for years..Instantly

In the second instance..
The people who were there..
Forgot what they preached for years..Instantly..

In both cases that would be the Majority..

For the sake of argument we can leave out small children..
People who just joined ..And..
JW`s who had brain damage from a car accident..

The people who do remember..
Either get with the program,or they will be DF`d..
Accepting New Light means you won`t Lose your Family and Friends..

It`s a Cult..

..........................................OUTLAW

TEC SAID

All that I did was a once a week study, and once I accepted that, then my own study as well. But that once a week study reinforced everything so... absolutely... that the personal reading and studying in between those sessions got set back every time the once a week session came along.

So I can only imagine how little time one would have to think or reason or study and reflect on their own... when there are 2-3 meetings per week, nightly reviews of the wts material, AND, going out in service to teach (which is just a question supplied with the answers... no thinking involved, unless one is going to think AGAINST what has been given by the wts)

It is constant, constant reinforcement... with no room to breathe or think otherwise. Something specific has to happen to WAKE people up (and that is different for different people).

Peace,
tammy

YPPUPLLEH SAID

I've read the article about the woman who lived in China for a few years. I'm reminded if similar accounts from Christian missionaries who would smuggle Bibles into the country.

I believe that people who are outside of certain groups and do not share the beliefs of that group will cry brainwashing. People who grow up Mormon? Brainwashed. People who believe in God? Brainwashed. People who are members of PETA? Brainwashed. People who believe that the Holocaust occurred? Brainwashed. People who watch tv? Brainwashed. People who grew up in the Atomic age and built fallout shelters in their backyard? Brainwashed. People who are Americans? Brainwashed. and so on.

My original intent in creating this thread is that the JW system works for some people and some families. Many are quite happy with it. Many outgrow it and move on and many outgrow it and stay in. To call all of them brainwashed seems harsh and excessive. It also insults the intelligence of people.

What does the term "brainwashed" really mean? People who are less enlightened? People who believe certain things that we ourselves do not believe? People of faith? It's a horrid term when used loosely

I know I take the unpopular view here in that I have to respect those who believe in the Watchtower system. The system didnt work for the members here and the results are very saddening. I consider all of the exJW's ive interacted with as my friends and as such i'm always on your sides and supportive.
_________________
Love is a warm rubber puppy...

CHAPPY SAID

Yeah, I'm not sure what it means. If a JW or a Mormon has a child, they are going to teach them their worldview.

Same as Hindus, Muslims, Jews and Christians.

Some people think of it as indoctrination, but it's actually enculturation. It's how cultural info is passed from parent and other responsible adults to the children.

Social pressure, such as ostracizing and gossip, are pretty typical ways we all use to keep others within the cultural norms.

With the JW's, I think of it more as Information Control, even thought control. They put external social pressure on members to get them to think in conformity.

One is not free to honestly investigate, and doing so could lead to losing your parents, children, friends, siblings, uncles, aunts. When I was a JW, it made me very uncomfortable to even think about talking to an apostate. They told me the apostate would pull me away from God. That they were like poison, and one couldn't walk away without effect. If you didn't die (spiritually) then you would be made very ill (spiritually).

In fact, I never listened to any 'apostates' until after I became an atheist! I stayed away from them on the television, papers, radio, internet and real life.

If I thought about a doubt I had for too long, then I would get uncomfortable. What if my doubt was valid? What if I was being misled? Would I lose all these friends of mine? It was more comfortable to just not think about it anymore. Seriously persuing such was very scary to me.

You should see how very new posters on JWN often post their first post. They admit it makes them scared. It's a line. If they post, are they apostate? Are they ready for the consequences? Even my first post ended with, 'okay, I'm going to hit the submit button now. I really am." *squeak*

And I was an atheist. It still made me feel scared for some reason, and it wasn't rational.

If a group is able to instill that kind of fear in it's members, fear of information, then they are doing something. Some people call it brainwashing, others call it indoctrination, but whatever it's called, it is definitely a LOT of control over a persons thinking---thus the term brainwashing.

Thinking critically about the organization was called 'independent thinking' and it was to be avoided at all costs.

I told you the routine. It was mentally and physically exhausting. It doesn't leave much energy or time to truly question. They call it keeping busy in spiritual matters and it is highly encouraged. They say if you miss meetings, you will start to have doubts and grow weak. Why? Because it gives a person a moment to take a breath and think! They frown on that.

And they positively reinforce keeping yourself so busy or so close minded you can't think.

The kids have it the hardest, because they know no other way. I admire the ones that wake up, because they have a lot more steps and usually a lot more at stake than someone like me.

But here is the thing. We really understand they have the right to be part of that religion if they want to be. However, we don't think the WT has the right to hide information from them, and then forbid them to seek it out.

AGUEST SAID



I agree, dear HP (peace to you!) that the term should not be used loosely. So please trust me when I say that I don't use it loosely as to JWs. They ARE brainwashed (and I was, as well, at one point) for this reason:

They THINK they are believing in something that they are NOT because others, who KNOW they are not, have made it their MISSION to CONVINCE them that they ARE. Brainwashing, then, it not merely someone believing in something false. We all do/have done that. Think boogeyman as children. Or Santa Claus, etc. The difference here is the INTENT behind the DECEPTION: convincing people that they are following Christ and serving God... and that if they don't listen to these folks they're not listening TO God... and so will be "rewarded" with SEVERE punishment, even death/destruction... which is meted out NOW in the form of shunning, ostracism, slander, and loss of family, loved ones, livelihoods... and lives... ALL TO SUPPORT THE FINANCIAL GOALS AND INCREASES OF A PUBLISHING COMPANY... and so having NOTHING to do with GOD... OR Christ (as can be shown by the Memorial event)... at ALL. Not REALLY.

THAT... is brainwashing. Not telling a child that the tooth fairy will leave a quarter. Why not? Because at some point that child will learn, heck, YOU might even tell them... that there really is no Tooth Fairy. Why not tell them at the start? Well, you can... but little kids usually want to do/have the things/fun their peers are having. So, if they ask one CAN be candid and say something like, "No dear, it's really Mommy, but you'll still get your quarter." Whatever.

What ones does NOT do, however, when that child learns, hears, figures out that there's no Santa Claus is say, "Oh, yes there IS and you had better keep believing it AND telling others that there is... or you will be disfellowshipped and so lose practically everything dear to you! Because WE say/teach that there is and we can't have someone among us saying/teaching differently. If you do, you are EVIL (i.e., an apostate) and are going to DIE. Indeed, God is going to KILL you. So either continue to believe... or risk everything."

THAT is the difference. I mean, imagine your wife/mother/child saying to you, "Well, I still believe in the Great Pumpkin and if you don't I can't have anything more to do with you." Why not, "Well, okay, 'hon, YOU don't believe, but I still do and so let's make an agreement to not let it come between us?" Versus others TELLING you that, "Uh, hey, HP, if you're still gonna be married to your wife/let your child live with you... and she/he doesn't believe in the Easter Bunny, well, you can't 'serve' as one of our servants and I can't associate with you any more."

See?? BIG difference, dear one.



And that's fine. I don't DISrespect ALL of them... because ALL of them are not full on putzes. But I have to PRAY (and work) to have respect for the ones that ARE putzes. And while they may not be the ones who come to one's door ('cause they can't let a householder know what they REALLY think about them, those "goats")... they are often those in one's family. You know, the ones that HURT... which is why so many who leave ARE hurting.

The system didnt work for the members here and the results are very saddening.

Now, see, I am not so sure that that is the case, dear one. The SYSTEM... SHOULD have worked for, say, me. I did EVERYTHING they said to DO. Down to a "T." Which is what got me in trouble: I was supposed to do it as to everyone ELSE... but not THEM. When I read the scriptures, I was supposed to see how everyone ELSE was misleading God's sheep, not them. I was supposed to see how only the OTHER religions were false prophets, not them. I was supposed to defend and give a reason for my faith to OTHERS... but not them. I was supposed to SEEK the TRUTH... with regard to whatever everyone ELSE said... but not them. I was supposed to expect love... forgiveness... and mercy... from everyone... EXCEPT them.

EVERYTHING they "warned" me as to others... I received... from THEM. Why? Because I WAS following THEIR system. THEY weren't... and aren't. That the entire POINT about attending and partaking at the Memorial. Christ said that ANYONE can eat his flesh and drink his blood. THEY say it's not between anyone except the person and "Jehovah." Yet, they utterly DISCOURAGE one from (1) listening to CHRIST's words as to the matter, as well as (2) listening to THEM as to it. Out of one side of their mouths, it's nobody else's business. Out of the other side, however, it apparently is EVERYONE else's business... except the one partaking! The ONLY one who has NO say... IS THE ONE PARTAKING. LOLOLOLOL! How IS that, exactly??

I consider all of the exJW's ive interacted with as my friends and as such i'm always on your sides and supportive.

Dear HP, let me give you this to consider: I did not leave the WTBTS - they asked ME to leave. Because I spoke the truth, initially about Judas being at the Memorial. I COULDN'T lie... and I was initially confused that they even wanted me to. And yes, they wanted me to. They said that EVERYTHING I showed them WAS in the Bible, but that I needed to stick with what the WTBTS was teaching, even if it WASN'T true or in the Bible... because otherwise I was "going ahead of the things written" (in the Watchtower). Now, how was I supposed to do THAT... while adhering to their whole "thing" about "being clean before 'Jehovah'", etc.?

Even so, MY love didn't stop for THEM: I would still give any one of them the shirt off my back and food out of my own cupboard. I still speak to THEM - they don't speak to ME. THEIR love failed, dear one, not mine. Which is why I go back, among them, at least once a year: because that is what mercy and forgiveness DOES. It does not "keep account of the injury." Rather, if I have/know of something that COULD mean life for them... where is the love if I keep it to myself? How can I say I love them... if I "shut the door of my tender compassion" to them?

I can only speak for myself but I am not their enemy - they constitute themselves as being mine, by constituting me as theirs. You, I, and other dear ones here don't believe all of the same things or agree on all things. Yet, we can associate with one another and DISCUSS our different beliefs, etc.

That cannot happen with them, dear one. Their leaders won't allow it.

I hope this helps, truly, because I don't want you to think I/we hate JWs. Sure, I hate the institution that created their beliefs... and the "leadership" that foments, induces, and demands it. But it is what they DO that I hate; not those who do it.

Again, peace to you!

YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

Shellama

JUSTMOM SAID







Hello my sister AnneB

I really appreciate this example you brought out about how a cast or splint can serve its purpose, then its time to shed its support. No longer needed!
This reminds me of my experience in the WTBS and my Lord showed me these verses to help me understand when I asked "Why, so long?"
He shared with me that in addition to my stubbornness and hard-heartedness towards him because of my programming from the WT and allowing the "brainwashing" to continue, he said that it had served its purpose.
Now it was time for me to come to HIM! Allow Him to lead and guide me by means of holy spirit, not a system of man-made rules and doctrines.
That I was to follow "His voice" and no longer the voice of a stranger.

And he shared these verses with me as to WHY?


Galatians 4: 1-7
"Now I say that as long as the heir is a babe he does not 'differ' at all from a slave, lord of all things though he is, 2 but he is under men in charge and under stewards UNTIL the day his Father appointed beforehand. 3. Likewise we also, when we were babes, continued enslaved by the elementary things belonging to the world. 4. But when the full limit of the time arrived, God sent forth His Son, who came to be under law, 5 that he might release by purchase those under law, that we, in turn, might receive the adoption as SONS. 6 Now because you are sons, God has sent forth the spirit of His Son into our hearts and it cries out: "Abba, Father!" 7 So, then, you are no longer "A SLAVE" but a SON; and if a SON, also an heir through God."

So YES AnneB, that system worked for a time, and then it was time to shed.
The problem is and was as you mentioned, when we tried to leave and follow our Lords voice and allow Him through Holy spirit to guide and lead us and take us IN...and demonstrate our faith "in him" by confessing union with him by partaking of his body and blood, they were
"NOT GOING TO HAVE IT!"

The only way out of this "gang" was death to them. In their eyes spiritually by disfellowshipping and labelly us the worst of criminals and eventually physically, death at Armageddon.

Their reaction was very similar to Pharoahs when Moses and Aaron pleaded on their behalf and on behalf of the Hebrew slaves when they asked of him "Let us journey on out into the wilderness with my people and serve our God in peace."

Pharoah "WAS NOT GOING TO HAVE IT"
At least in HIS eyes without making their lives a living "hell."

But we all know the ultimate outcome.

This post reminded me of this
Thanks for sharing it

Love Justmom

YPPUPLLEH SAID

am very glad with how this thread has come along
_________________
Love is a warm rubber puppy...

OUTLAW SAID


How do you figure Pup?..
You walk away from the WBT$ and your JW family will turn on you..Your JW Friends will turn on you..
Just like they`ve been Brain Washed to do
Theres no thought involved,only Blind Obedience..
There is no just moving on,there`s a Price to Pay..
It starts with your Own Family..



The Watchtower system is nothing more than Extortion,Real Estate Scams and new ways to Generate Cash..Disguised as a Religion..
They`ve Publicly said..
They can`t Kill People like us is because the Law won`t Allow It..




You have absolutely no Idea what your Taking Sides with,or what your Defending..
I`m not trying to be mean or hurtful..
I`m just telling it like it is..

...........................................OUTLAW

ZOE SAID

Pup you were never a JW, believe me if a person is a bonafide all in JW you will know its a cult if you want to leave or disagree.
_________________
*ZOE*

AGUEST SAID

Somehow I'd forgotten that dear Pup was never a JW (peace to you all, this rainy morning!). So, I have to agree with dear Zoe and the Sher'f, dear HP - gotta walk a mile in them JW moccasins, bro... and then perhaps you will understand why some LOSE respect for them. Trust me, it really is a chore KEEPING it. Praise JAH, some of us manage to do that.

For some like me, it's only because of Christ showing and teaching US how to love. Left to my own feelings, I would most probably have great contempt for most of them... based on what I KNOW they do (as individuals)... whether in obedience to the Borg... or just because of their own darkness and hypocrisy.

Because, lemme tell you: if you're the KIND of person who is vengeful in heart and so WANTS/LIKES/NEEDS to "hate" others... and NEEDS to justify why you would not help another ('cause they're an "enemy")... rather than readily, openly, and fully forgive... and show mercy and tender compassion... it is the absolute PERFECT environment to cultivate and foment that kind of "heart." So, it ain't THAT hard to be "like" them, if one has such tendencies to begin with.

It's only hard if you're NOT that kind of person. In that case, something is ALWAYS not going to "sit (quite) right" with you. There will ALWAYS be some kind of "gong" in the sound... or "bitterness" in the taste... of their teachings and mentality. Something will ALWAYS "bother" you. You just may not be able to "see" it right away, for whatever reason (including being forgiving of and merciful to THEM, as while TRUE faith is NEVER blind... LOVE... can be blind, dear one!).

I am glad, though, that you are "receptive" to the comments here. We can't give you our experiences but perhaps our comments can help you "see" them a little better.

Again, peace to you... and to you all!

YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

Shellama... going dark for a bit...

ZOE SAID

I used to hate the JW's but now I don't, I feel sorry for them that they wasting their time being self righteous.

I know there is a lot of really good and nice people stuck in that religion and I know I was responsible for one lovely lady becoming one. I still to this day worry that she might still be in it and that it ruined her family life. Unfortunately when women change their marital status they are often hard to find because of name changes.

When I delivered my 3rd baby who is now 34 years old my hospital room mate was a lady who I made fast friends with. We met up and talked on the phone for several years after meeting and I witnessed to her when she asked questions. I never pushed it on her though and I was a weak witness as I had a unbelieving husband. Anyway one day she phoned me about 5 years later and said she was studying and was going to get baptized. She said she got interested because of me and what a good person I was (OMG) and because my message was so appealing, living forever in Paradise. Ironically the timing was bad because I had just decided to disassociate myself due to the lack of love and hypocrisy and wanted to discourage her but it was too late. Her husband was very angry about it and she had 2 little children so it was not a good thing.
_________________
*ZOE*

YPPUPLLEH SAID

AnneB and Chappy seem to understand where I am coming from . Obviously the religion has not worked for those who are no longer in it due to personal decisions to leave or by being "kicked out". But for those who remain and are active and are quite happy with their decision it works for them.

This isn't a debate on whether or not the JW religon is good or bad. That is a very subjective matter. There are former members with huge chips on their shoulders and rightfully so for what they perceive the religion has done to them and their families. But then I see families that are still in the religion and they are happy with their choice and as I've said before "it works for them".

I was waiting for the "walk a mile in our shoes" and "you were never a JW" comments to surface. This isn't necessary as this thread is not about whether I believe the religion is positive or negative to me. It's about the membership numbers that indicate quite a few families and individuals embrace the teachings and are satisfied with them. That some families who are members of the JW religion are transgenerational. Are my opinions and observations less valid simply because I've never been a JW? Can I not understand a person or situation without having gone through the experience? This argument strategy always seems to come up as an "Ace up the sleeve" type of response. I do not have to have been a method addict to tell someone that quitting drugs is good for you. If a mother adopts a child because she is unable to have children does it mean that since she's never given birth that her motherhood is less valid than others? I know it is very tempting but please do not dismiss my opinions and observations for "lack of experience" on my part .

I knew this would be an unpopular view here which is what the thread title reflects. But Hellpuppy doesn't shy away when it comes to expressing views that may be controversial or unpopular especially when it comes to giving a voice to those who are not around to provide counterpoint. I'm sure there are quite a few here who can relate to that ;P
_________________
Love is a warm rubber puppy...

YPPUPLLEH SAID

And to let you all know ;P I'm not offended but am purely debating
_________________
Love is a warm rubber puppy...

OUTLAW SAID



No it`s not..
Theres plenty of people who stay so they don`t lose their Family and Friends..
The WBT$ is very capable of taking your entire life away..
You may as well say people are happy with a cruel dictatorship,because they don`t want a bullet in the head..



In a word,Yes..


No..
Your not even grasping the basics..



If the woman is a JW ..
She`s Brain Washed to turn her back on the child. if it doesn't agree with WBT$ ideas..
Normal parenting goes out the window when your a JW..
You parent the way your told to parent by the WBT$..
If that means turning your back on your children (as teenagers or adults) for not agreeing with the WBT$..
So be it..


Given your lack of experience on the subject..
You should be learning,not teaching..
Until you can eat,breath,sleep,think,talk, the JW Cult 24/7..And..
Do it for years..You will never understand our World..


.............................................OUTLAW

AGUEST SAID

Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:00 am Post subject:
I hope you didn't get from ME that the topic... or your position... was "unpopular," dear HP (again, peace to you!). Indeed, this is the VERY place where such should be discussed/debated. I totally get what you're saying, but I would counter that families ensconced in the Mafia or drug cartels most probably feel such "works" for them, as well, while others of us would disagree on the basis that while such families may be "okay" with it and "doing good" as a result of it, there is great and insidious harm to others, as well as to society in general.

But I hear you. Just like all money ain't good money, though, all beliefs ain't good beliefs. As dear Zoe (peace!) posted... and I keep repeating it because I believe it is SO appropo in many threads:

"A lie is a lie, even if EVERYONE believes it."

I would wager, then, that in contrast to, say, the first part of the last century, more JWs/JW families are NOT doing good than are. Such ones just don't know "where else" to go away to if they left the WTBTS. Very few would leave and join another religion as the WTBTS really is the "end of [religion] line for them." 'Cause they aren't a "religion," right? At least, that's what they SAY. And so most JWs would never leave a non-religion (uh-huh, yeah) for a religion.

And neither would most of us here, where still believers or atheists/agnostics. Once one is done with the WTBTS, one is usually done with institutionalized religion of ANY kind.

But that's what WE'RE here to tell them: ain't no "where" else to go away to. There is only a Whom. And neither That One, the HOLY One of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah)... nor His Father and Ours, the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies... dwell in handmade temples. Nor do they need vast groups of people to gather in order to be present.

No, they dwell in the "temple" that is the people who make up the BODY of Christ... and only needs two or more to gather in his name. And in some instances, there doesn't even need to be two... or a gathering in his name.

Even so, what you might not realize is that WE... are only doing what THEY taught us and said we were to do. They just said it was as to all OTHER religions... and not them. We have learned that, no, it was with regard to them. They just can't "see" it. Which is another reason why their hypocrisy is SO great.

I hope this helps... and I am enjoying the discussion/debate and so am more than willing to continue if YOU wish. If not, no worries, at all.

Again, peace to you!

YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

Shellama