xjwsforChrist

AGUEST SAID


(Smile) I'm sure I didn't say it well, dear one (again, peace to you!), so no worries; I will try again!




I'm certainly not meaning FOR spirit-led christians, dear one. Such don't NEED such laws... because GOD'S law is already written on their hearts. So, they would be engaged in conduct that would CALL for some other laws. What I'm asking is whether, in say an instance where a government finds no other "way"... and nothing else has worked... and it seems that such WOULD work... for those who NEED such in order to BE "lawFUL." Say, they (the offenders) would say, "YOU can't tell ME what to do, and so if I WANT to steal, I WILL... unless GOD says I can't steal, then I WON'T!"

What, THEN?



I agree. But I think some... perhaps many... miss a pretty valid point: not all CAN live as a free people. Think of it as like "incorrigible" criminals. Or unrehabilitative pedophiles. Etc. If the ONLY thing such ones FEAR... IS "God"... what THEN?



Okay, now I'm confused, but MY confusion is probably the result of YOUR confusing as to what I meant in the first place. Because I agree with you, here.

I am NOT saying there should be a Bible-based government - SHUDDER!!!!! - good Lordy, NO!! I'm just stating that I think the TRUTH is that perhaps it DEPENDS. On what "controls"... the otherwise "uncontrollable." Now, the issue would be "uncontrollable" in what WAY. Adultery? Not my business. Fornication? Not my concern. Homosexuality? I don't care. Murder? Hmmmm. Pedophilia? Hmmmm, some more. Random and unbridled pillaging, plundering, rape, etc.? Hmmmmmmmmm...

I just don't see everything in such "black and white" any longer, dear one. Again, that might be my legal training, where the response to almost anything is... "it depends." For me, it is the same as with God and Christ... and would I serve them if I didn't know them as I do NOW: it depends. IF JAH had turned out to be the kind of "person" depicted in the OT... I think perhaps not. He isn't, though... and I understand this, now, because His SON, whom I KNOW... is not like that and has shown me that the Father isn't, either. When I was able to accept that... and could "see" the Father for MYSELF... I knew fully better. And so, yes, of COURSE I would serve Him!

So, again, MY response would have to be... "it depends."

I hope that helps, dear one! Again, peace to you!

YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

SA

PTERIST SAID

Bibical Theocracy as in the OP is not just imposing Judeo Chritians laws and regulations on ALL but also imposing the consequences of breaking these rules and regulations.
Have you got a good supply of stones handy ????

No we don't want this type of theoracy !!!
In USA most like it as it is, a plurist society !
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Shalom

TEC SAID



Of course. I'm not sure that it is always a choice that people make though. More of an accept or don't accept... based on evidence/experience. But if one were to choose one way or the other, then it is of course your right to do so.

Q

LOl... I think there are a few elements in that question

First part: As I said, I think no one has the right to make you believe in God. I also think that no one has the ability to make you believe in God. Deeper than that, no one else can make you KNOW God (except Christ, because if you see Him, then you see God... but He does not MAKE you see Him either)


Second part: All people, whether they believe in God or not, are capable of doing good and doing bad. (no one is good except God... and the meaning of this 'no one is good' is not as dire as men have made it out to be. Good... is an absence of bad. I know of no one, most especially myself, who is absent of bad - else no sin/bad would ever be done by them. Hence... no one is good, but God himself. The understanding of this was not revealed to me by my Lord until just now.)

Believing in God does not make one 'good'. Not believing in God does not make one 'bad'.


If your question pertained to love... and doing good... then no, you do not need to believe in God (or be made to believe in God) to love or to do good. Some have that law (of love) written on their hearts, and so do the things required by that law (of love) naturally.


Hope that helps, but please more if you want/need to.

Peace to you!

tammy

PTERIST SAID

Pluralistic politics require a base of social diversity in order to succeed. Pluralists feel that although not every individual will want or try to have a voice, special interest groups will represent the opinions of all people. Interest group leaders have more knowledge regarding the inner workings of government than ordinary citizens and therefore are able to channel democratic voices to the politicians in power more effectively. In a Pluralist Democracy, there will be a special interest group for almost every different opinion held by the populous, so even without the people taking an active role, representation for all will be achieved. Politicians seek to please the special interest groups, supposing that this will lead to more support among the electors. In a Pluralist Democracy, government policy will be a juncture of the ideas held by the various interest groups representing the population. While the United States incorporates elements from all of these models, America most resembles a Pluarlist Democracy. The Pluralist model, one in which representatives speak for the population, developed after political and social scientists observed the apathetic view of people toward the government (Lewis; Hudson 15-19).
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Shalom

CHARIKLO SAID

"Do you believe that everyone should be allowed to choose if they believe in god or not? What if I said I was an atheist? Do you think I must be made to believe in god in order to be "good"?"

But this is silly, isn't it? A complete non-question, a nonsense, a linguistic impossibility.

No-one can MAKE anyone else believe in anything. Surely, to believe in something is to accept it as true, not just to say one accepts it, but to accept it heart and mind, to know that out of all the options available, this is the on that one chooses to take as real and true.

How can you force someone to accept within themselves something to the extent that it is found true, sometimes against all other options.

You can require and force someone to agree not to oppose something, to agree to abide by something, even to declare that you will follow along with something, but believe? With inner conviction?

That cannot be forced.

AGUEST SAID




This. And what dear Tec said. And what dear Char said. But a LOT of this... which is what many DON'T understand as to what who is a christian is SUPPOSED to get.

It is NOT the vocation of a true christian to MAKE anyone else DO anything. Because we know (1) we CAN'T, and (2) it isn't up to US, but to the person... and God. All WE can do is share OUR experience... and perhaps what is given us TO share... which I have found is related to TRUTH and LOVE... and not "law."

But since all don't GET that... both among those who claim to BE christians as well as some who don't... "law" MIGHT be necessary. Not saying it IS... just saying... might.

Peace!

A slave of Christ,

SA

NONI SAID

AGuest wrote:



No, I don't think you should be made to not believe in god to be a "good" person. I actually respect others beliefs and rights to those beliefs. What bothers me is when christians and other religions try to preach to me and only see there own views as being right or having meaning. It also irritates me when people who believe in god in what ever form they choose, say that atheists hate or are angry at god and that is why they don't believe. I often wonder how one reasons that a disbelief in god is related to a hate of god. If one doesn't believe in god then how can one hate god? Personally, I am neither angry with, nor upset at "god". It's orgianized religion I hate.


I was explaining it the other day to a friend. I don't believe in the exsistance of unicons, I have never seen any scientific evidence that proves the exsistance of unicons, so how can I hate unicorns if they don't exsist? It make no sense to me at all to say I hate god, if I have no belief in god.

I also don't for one second believe that a person needs a belief in god or religion to make them a good person. A good person, regaurdless of religion, is still a good person. For instance, it doesn't take a law or a religion to tell me that killing is wrong. Every person has potential and to kill a person is to take that potential away. I have no right to take away from the world the person who might one day cure cancer. Even if that person made me angry for whatever reason.

People say I am a weird atheist though, mostly because I have superstions and believe in karma and a few other non-atheist type things.

YPPUPLLEH SAID

Does a law become a religious law when it is found in religious texts ?
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Love is a warm rubber puppy...

CHAPPY SAID

Nah. I think it's more the tone, etc. All religious texts have admonitions against murder and such. But Noni is talking about the OT and the NT.

For me I have no problem simply saying, no. No matter what the situation. I don't need to think there could be a good time. I don't feel like stoning homosexuals or young women that weren't virgins on their wedding nights. Don't want to stone anyone for picking up sticks on the Sabbath either. I can say, without a doubt, that it would NEVER be a good idea to live by that code.

AGUEST SAID



I have always perceived that about, dear Noni (again, peace to you!) and so I hope it didn't appear like I was pointing a finger; I wasn't.



The first bothers me, too; the second is of no consequence to me, any more than those who believe that their views of, say, human evolution or NO God is right or has meaning. As to the first, that is the beauty, IMHO, of the Internet. Like my front door, I don't HAVE to open it to those I don't want to. I can simply CHOOSE not to, say, open a thread/read a post.

Even better, I unless something is specifically addressed TO me... I don't really have to assume it is FOR me. Indeed, I shouldn't assume that, should I? Just become something is posted on an Internet forum doesn't mean they're talking to ME. And so, I don't have to assume that anyone is preaching TO me. I truly don't where one has said they AREN'T. For me to take offense, though, at a message meant for and so addressed to OTHERS... as IF it were addressed to me... when it is NOT... seems arrogant, if not outright rude, IMHO. Certainly is seems mistaken.

I marvel, then, that if, say, someone came on a certain forum and posted something they say they heard from "Mohammed" would be ignored, if not outright dismissed... but if someone says it is from God/Christ, even those who claim absolutely NO belief in either assume it's at/to/for them. That makes absolutely NO rational sense to me.

Not to say that YOU do any of that, but your commented caused me to reflect on this dichotomy.

.


See, now, I'm not sure what that is... unless it misapplies to YOU. Because some DO hate/are mad at God. That they can't/don't/won't admit it doesn't make it untrue. Calling oneself an atheist doesn't necessarily make one such... any more than calling oneself a christian "makes" one a christian. I can understand your being upset when some say that ALL atheists are such (hate/angry) - that would upset me, too... just as it upsets me (not much, though), when SOME atheists say that ALL believers are delusional, making things up, etc. THAT's what bothers ME... about BOTH camps: I see NO difference.

I also can't see the difference when individual atheists, who deign to opine/state as to whether an INDIVIDUAL christian "is" or "is not"... while decrying that that individual christian might say about THEM. They wish others to believe THEIR words are true... but the other's is NOT... and take issue when the other says their words ARE true. What, pray tell, is the DIFFERENCE? Why put burdens on others than one cannot carry oneself? Isn't that hypocrisy?


Usually by the "fruits" exhibits toward the one saying it. If one believes God is love (and I do!), then one can, in some instances, equate another's hated for THEM... with a hatred of/for God. Certainly, if the basis FOR such hate is the RESULT of the hated one's relationship WITH God: "You hate ME because I love GOD, which love prompts me to speak/share with you things I received FROM God, and since God is LOVE... and you lack LOVE... you hate ME... and therefore, you hate God... who gave me the things I speak/share." See?

That... and what some of these SAY about/as to/and TO God. I mean, we don't put words in anyone else's mouth... or heart. And it is out of our HEART'S "abundance" that we speak. So...


EXACTLY!! A question WE ask: how can you be mad at/hate something/someone YOU say doesn't exist? If I say, "Well, then, you're mad at me!" and YOU say, "NO, I am NOT mad at you!"... yet, you're mad... at WHOM are you mad? Now, most would say that the TRUTH is that you're mad... at yourself. But... who curses himself/herself? So, no, you (and I don't mean you, personally or specifically, dear one!)... you curse the "one" you're mad at. Which turns out to be God. Yet, you don't believe God exists. Yet, you curse "Him."

What those who DO that, though, are DOING... is cursing... themselves! As my Lord said, "Out of your OWN mouths... you judge YOURSELF."

Because when it ALL comes down and is said, dear one... WE... ARE God. Because we are a piece of the energy/life that comes FROM God. So, when we curse "God"... or curse our brother... or our fellowman... we curse, literally, ourselves. Which is why we really wouldn't want to curse ANYONE. But some can't see... or hear... so as to get and understand this. So, they run arounding curing... all manner of things and people. EVEN... God.



And THAT is our COMMON ground... the one MOST of us went to another site to "celebrate." Somehow, though, we... here... have become the "common enemy." Of both organized religion (well, at least one institution of it)... and those who hate it. Who, though, foments, and allowed THAT? WE don't view folks like YOU as enemies. Well, didn't. Until you showed yourselves "against" US. He that is not AGAINST us... is FOR us. In the endeavor not to be for THEM, though, some have turned against US. Was that a "natural"... evolution? Perhaps. Didn't have to be, though. Almost like a Judas thing, though, isn't it?



Okay, I can receive that. But let me ask you: do you go all out to take issue with those who DO believe in unicorns? If so, WHY... since YOU don't believe in them? If not... why NOT?

Quote:
I also don't for one second believe that a person needs a belief in god or religion to make them a good person.


Nor does any true christian. Because such one would remember people like Rahab... and Ruth... and the many, many others who, although not being Israel... or a Jew... showed themselves to be BETTER than Israel or certain Jews. MANY have... and DO. That is NOT what the message of a true christian about, though... that we are "better" than anyone else - to the contrary, it is about we are NOT... and so are in NEED of salvation... and anyone else who recognizes that about themselves... that they are "Israel"... or "contenders with God"... and so believe THEY have such need... well, there's a Way to GET it. Because in and of ourselves we are NOT righteous, good, perfect, etc., nor CAN we be, in and of ourselves.

Unfortunately... many so-CALLED "christians" have, for several millenia... been preaching and teached a DIFFERENT "Christ"... to the great detriment of MANY... technically AND literally... physically AND spiritually! And because of THEM... we are being persecuted. But that's how it was supposed to go! If one is a true christian, one would know that and not expect a "welcome" from the world, whether from non-believers or those who profess to be believers (but truly are not!).



Anyone TRULY joined to Christ would agree! I certainly do!



Not YOU... nor ME, no. But surely, you realize that it takes one or the other... or both... for SOME people.

Q

I am not sure what you mean by "potential." People who kill come from ALL walks of life. From the premeditative murderer... to the army soldier... from the jealous lover... to the beat cop. If I am understanding you correctly, those WITH potential can and often DO kill... just as others. So, I need to get clarification as to what you mean by "potential."

If you mean "potential" as in, to be a son of God, as some might, then I have to say that even killing another doesn't necessarily take THAT potential away. I look to people like Cain, Moses, David and Saul of Tarsus (Paul) to "see" that truth.



Not all killings are done as a result of some perceived "right," dear one. There is accidental killing. But let me ask you: what is your position on abortion (I have none, personally - I am no one's judge)? What if the person who WOULD have found the cure to cancer has already been aborted? What if several of them have been? How many of them? If your argument is that, well, another will come along, wouldn't that apply equally to YOUR scenario? That, well, another will come along... so what's the big deal? I think it does.



LOLOLOLOL! People "say" all manner of stupid and untrue things, dear one. People "say" I'm a weird christian because of MY beliefs! LOLOLOLOL! But so what? You don't sound like you CARE what people "say" in this light and if that's the case, GOOD FOR YOU! Because I don't care what people "say" about ME in this light, either!

Bottom line, dear one: if I style myself a christian, but treat YOU with hate... then am I TRULY a christian? How can that BE? God makes it rain on the righteous AND the unrighteous... and through His Son tells ME not to judge. As an atheist, you wish ME to believe that YOUR love is a "good" as anyone else's. Yet, if you "hate" ME... simply for what I believe... and say as a result of that belief... how can you truly be "better" than me?

The only people I am sent to, dear one... is those of the Household of God, Israel, and those who go with her. IF you ARE of that Household then you can consider my words directed to YOU... and receive or refrain from them. If you are NOT of that Household... and by claiming a lack of belief in God are pretty much claiming you are NOT... then the message is not FOR you. It is not FOR everyone: never HAS been.

And THAT'S that gets the goat of most of the atheists I have come to have acquaintance with: how can there BE a message that is NOT for THEM? But that is due to THEIR arrogance, is it not... versus MY "delusion"? Because why would a message originating with God be FOR someone who claims NO belief IN God? It is arrogant to assume... desire... such a message IS for such one... or to take issue that it is not.

I hope this helps, dear one.

Again, peace to you!

YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

SA

AGUEST SAID



If Israel could have seen Christ, they WOULDN'T have lived by it, dear Chaps (peace to you!). They couldn't SEE him... because they were too busy LOOKING AT THAT LAW... so as to judge and condemn their fellowman. Which is what those who still look at it today, do.

If, though, they turned to CHRIST... so that HIS glory shined through... they not only would no longer LOOK at the Old Law... they couldn't even SEE it... if they tried.

Because the Light that is Christ... would "blind" them TO it... and obsure its view FROM them.

Peace!

A slave of Christ,

SA

CHARIKLO SAID

Er...just one minute...can we have a bit of honesty here, please?

Noni says "What bothers me is when Christians and other religions try to preach to me and only see their own views as being right or having meaning."

Uh? Come again? What? Where did I say any of that? Where did Tec? Shelby? Paul? Outlaw?

What have I been missing here?

Chappy: good to know you don't feel like stoning homosexuals or virgins on their wedding nights.

I suppose...never thought about it.

I'm assuming you don't tar and feather people and set light to them. Nor do you pull toenails out and subject your grandmother to the Chunese Water Torture.

But...forgive me here...bear with me...what the HECK has that got to do with anything?

No-one here does any of that. No-one here is preaching to you. Nobody gives a hoot or a duck's whistle what you believe.

WE. DON'T CARE

So...what on earth are you doing here?

I mean, stay around if you want but we usually find that conversations work better here if people say something that had some relevance somewhere to something that is actually going on.

Meanwhile...

One thing I really hate about atheists is when they suck their thumbs and line up in rows on telegraph wires unable to think what to do next.

What's that? You don't?

I know.

Sauce for the goose...

SAB SAID

The US Constitution and it's amendments, the Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence takes the Old and New Testaments into account. The former supersedes the latter in regards to official law. It's a just system that was penned by God as the OT and the NT were. To go back to the Bible as the only Written Law would be like going back to 1980's computing. It wouldn't make any sense at all.

-Sab
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It only ends once everything else is just progress - Jacob, LOST

YPPUPLLEH SAID





I don't think they were specifically pointing out the people here but more like the ones who do behave that way.

We can't control them and more than likely have little to nothing to do with them. But people like that are indeed out there.
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Love is a warm rubber puppy...

CHAPPY SAID




I mean, stay around if you want but we usually find that conversations work better here if people say something that had some relevance somewhere to something that is actually going on.

Uhm---well. Let's see. Noni asked if we would want to live in a Theocracy that included OT laws. I listed some OT laws and said I didn't think that would ever be a good thing. Since I actually answered her question, I kind of thought it was relevant.

Uhm, grandmother's toenails? Chinese water torture? I didn't address those because they aren't in the OT, and the OT was mentioned in the opening question. I tried to keep it relevant, but if you throw them out there, I'd say they are a bad idea too.

As to nobody preaching to me, I never actually said anyone was preaching to me. ????

And as far as nobody giving a hoot what I think, thank you for speaking for everybody. I'm sure they appreciate that.