xjwsforChrist

SABASTIOUS SAID



I wanted to make a thread on this subject, Shelby. I wanted to start off with the Scripture in John 5:



How exactly did Moses "write of Jesus"? Nowhere in the text is the messiah mentioned explicitly, yet this Scripture affirms that it was so.

This is reminiscent of the beginning of John where it speaks about the very nature of the Word in relation to God. It shows that the Word, or Christ, DID NOT HAVE A BEGINNING. Yet, was ALWAYS present with the Ancient of Days. Therefore, he SHOULD be accounted for in Genesis 1 where it speaks of the Beginning.

If the Torah contained truth about the Son of God, why was it allowed to be corrupted? I for one believe that the document was not corrupted. Sure, it has been tampered with, but only by people who didn't know what they were doing. The messages Moses created and placed into the Torah were never completely understood. In order to change something you first have to know what it is that you are changing. Otherwise you might only THINK you are changing the text, when in fact you are actually leaving the hidden in tact.

How can you deny the Torah when Jesus said it was written about him? Why was it not safeguarded through time?

-Sab

AGUEST SAID

u

Greetings, dear Sab, and peace to you! Moses did mention my Lord, dear one:

"'JaHVeH your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers—it is to him you shall listen— just as you desired of JaHVeH your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly, when you said, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of JaHVeH my God or see this great fire any more, lest I die.’ And JaHVeH said to me, ‘They are right in what they have spoken. I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. And whoever will not listen to my words that he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him. But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.’ And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the Lord has not spoken?’— when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that JaHVeH has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him." Deuteronomy 18:15-19

(NOTE: In a sec you will see a very good example of the false stylus of the scribes, in how the part about the false prophet is misplaced. Per my Lord it WAS stated, but not here.)

That prophecy was fulfilled when:

"... behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, 'This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him.” When the disciples heard this, they fell on their faces and were terrified. But [Jesus] came and touched them, saying, “Rise, and have no fear.” Matthew 17:5-7

And in:

"I have come in my Father's name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him." John 5:43



This is inaccurate, dear one. The moment the Father uttered him into existence, was that One's beginning. The term "in the beginning," however, is not with reference to a commencement, but to a place. "In the Ark" (the womb of the Woman, Jerusalem Above). In that light, you are correct: "In the womb (of the Woman) was the Word... and the Word was with God." That's because God was/is in the womb, as well. Because that womb (of the Woman) is the spirit realm. "Sarah", the free wife of... and "woman", who brings forth children for... the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies. Now, of course, it could be said that he was always with God (the Ancient of Days)... in that He came forth FROM (out of) God, yes. As you came forth from YOUR father... and mother.



Because the time would come were Israel was to walk by faith... not by sight. And so the written Law would no longer be necessary. When was that? When Christ came and fulfilled all that "bore witness" ABOUT him... in the Torah/Writings. From THAT time... holy spirit is what is to guide Israel... and the Law is no longer written on tablets/paper... but on hearts. That is the FEATURE of the NEW Covenant.



I disagree. One came to "open" the meaning of the Torah and did so for those who belonged to him. And, by means of his holy spirit, has done so all the way until now... for those who belong to him. (Luke 24:27, 32, 44, 45; 1 John 2:26-28)

In order to change something you first have to know what it is that you are changing. Otherwise you might only THINK you are changing the text, when in fact you are actually leaving the hidden in tact.

Oh, I most certainly agree with that! MANY things that some thought they were intentionally corrupting they actually served to clarify with their pen. But how do WE know which is which: which is now accurate and which is not? Again, Christ answered:

"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life."John 5:39, 40


Because I heard from that One, the Holy One of Israel, the same thing that Paul did (indeed, it's how I even understood what Paul was speaking about when HE shared it with the congregation in Corinth in his third letter to them):

"Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses' face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory? For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory. Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it. For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.

"Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end. But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts.

"But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed.

"Now the Lord[d] is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit. 2 Corinthians 3:7-18

Why was it not safeguarded through time?

Because it didn't NEED to be, dear one. As Jeremiah was told to write:

“Behold, the days are coming, declares JaHVeH, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares JaHVeH. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares JaHVeH: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know JaHVeH,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares JaHVeH." Jeremiah 31:31-34

The Torah was and is for those who were under... or still adhere to... the OLD Law, dear one. It was the TUTOR... leading to Christ. Once that One CAME, however, and not only "opened" the Torah to his followers... but FULFILLED it's LAW... he made way for a NEW Law Covenant, the terms and provisions of which are put NOT in a temple made with hands... but in the "temple" that is God's PEOPLE... because it is written on THEIR hearts.

As Paul also stated:

"... YOU show that YOU are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts." 2 Corinthians 3:3

I hope this helps, dear one... truly. In all sincerity.

Again, peace to you!

YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

SA

PSACRAMENTO SAID

Sab,
You asked why God would "allow" for the Torah ( in effect the bible) to be corrupted.
You ask this as if God needs the written word to be perfect but I ask you this:
Outside of God, is there ANYTHING perfect ? and more importantly, is creation perfect?
The answer is, of course NO.
So, if the bible, the written word of God in Man's words, is part of creation why would we expect it to be perfect?
The written word of God, like creation, is in need or saving and redemption and that is done through the LIVING Word, the Incarnate Word of God, Christ.

The bible, my friend, is "good enough" for what it is for, to point the way to Christ.

SABASTIOUS SAID

Thanks Shelby for that response. I get the feeling that you are describing the superiority of Christianity over Judaism. The Scriptures you cited of Paul clearly indicate that he was not for Judaism at all. I can't help but feel my critical thinking meter go off on this one. Of course Paul was trying to get rid of Judaism, he was shedding it like a hermit crab. Therefore discouraging reading the Torah would be in his best interests.

Judaism is a fine religion, even today. The essence of the religion IS the Torah. To me it doesn't make sense that God made a covenant with the Hebrews and then give it to the Christians. That sounds like funny business to me.

So far I have to say I disagree with Paul on this one. Reading the Torah is an enlightening experience, not a darkening one. There are uncovered truths in it even today. From where I stand, there is just no way that God would allow this document to be corrupted. It's too important. The New Testament is more fishy than the Torah, especially this veil business. It appears to be a power play on the part of Paul.

Thanks Shelby for pointing me to these Scriptures. I have a lot of work to do now.

-Sab

AGUEST SAID




Oooh... I LIKE that, dear P! The greatest of love and peace to you and yours!

YSSFS of Christ,

SA

SABASTIOUS SAID



Hey Paul, I am not speaking about errors, but more of conspiracy. The claim is that the Torah has been "tampered with." In order to prove this we would need to establish the original contents of the document. I don't think this is possible. I think it's safe to say that God would not allow the Torah to become corrupted meaning purposeful lies written into it. If we establish that the document contains human error we don't have to call it bold face lying. It just doesn't seem feasible to me that fleshly men could attack a document created by God and win.

I am not saying the Torah supersedes the Spirit of Christ, I am saying they work in conjuncture and the errors are just mistakes rather than a conspiracy to challenge the word of God. Judaism and Christianity are friends, not enemies.

-Sab

PSACRAMENTO SAID

Within the bible itself there are warnings about scribes altering the Law ( Jeremiah) and laws given that were not good ( Ezekiel).
Now, I wouldn't go as far as to say as "corrupted" in the sense of a conspiracy or anything like that.
I think that the expect the bible, books and letters written, edited and copied by man, to be error proof is just plain wrong.
The bible must be and always has been interpreted by believers under the context of their own time.
We must always remember that the bible may have been written of us (believers) but it was not written TO Us.

AGUEST SAID



Dear Sab... peace to you... and this is an error. Paul was the very one who wrote that "ALL scripture is inspired and beneficial for teaching, reproving...", etc. He wasn't trying to discourage reading the Torah - he was pointing out what trying to adhere to the Law IN it would do.

I read the Torah, dear one, to the extent I am trying to share what it says as to some things with others. For example, your assertion that Christ wasn't mentioned. I shared with you where he was mentioned. But Paul isn't the only one to mention Christ in relation to Moses. As the writer of the letter to the Hebrews (who was not Paul) wrote:

[color=blue]"By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw that the child was beautiful, and they were not afraid of the king's edict. By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter, choosing rather to be mistreated with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. He considered the reproach of Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking to the reward. By faith he left Egypt, not being afraid of the anger of the king, for he endured as seeing him who is invisible. By faith he kept the Passover and sprinkled the blood, so that the Destroyer of the firstborn might not touch them."[color] Hebrews 11:23-28

Now, please know that I am NOT trying to dissuade your desire to read or confidence in the Torah, dear Sab, not at ALL. I only responded to a comment you made, as fully and completely as I could... using the Bible. YOU have to decide what you can/will accept... and should/must reject... based on either what you know/feel... or how YOU are moved by the Spirit.

So, please don't think I am "against" you in what I shared here. It truly was only a sharing, again based on what YOU shared.

As always, the greatest of love and peace to you, dear one!

YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

SA

SABASTIOUS SAID

Q

I think it was written for the sage first, and the individual of the future second. A common person with the internet is as well or more equipped than any sage of old. That's why atheists know the most about religion, because they have access to SO MUCH data. To look at the document purely from a secular perspective is a mistake, however. And that's what you make it by saying it's NOT written for you and I specifically. The words are for every single human being and they are not just any words, they are specially arranged to induce divine epiphany.



Putting a veil over your face would serve to shroud the details so to speak. What Paul seems to be saying is that without Christ you will not understand the words of Moses. It says that God would send a prophet like Moses which we are assuming is the Messiah. In what way is Jesus like Moses? Did God speak THROUGH Moses as this future prophet is described?

I didn't go to the Torah for answers, I went to God first and then he directed me TO the Torah. Then as I read it I understood it's words. The Watchtower does the opposite. They say that the document can only be interpreted by men who are chosen which is heresy. In reality the document can be interpreted by ANYONE who chooses to read it with the power of the Spirit. You just have to get the Spirit first and then go to the book. If you approach it the other way around you get gobbledeegook. It's the choice to go to Him first which seems to be the forefront of Paul's message, imo.

So, he IS discouraging reading the Torah at face value and not as intended which is probably what most people mistakenly did. It really is a SPIRITUAL document and if it's not recognized as such it will always be wrongly interpreted. Such as when scientists try to do an interpretation. They always end up with a very wrong idea. That's because they didn't believe in what it actually is, which is a living document that works with the Spirit of Truth. It's A word of God which is Scripture.



I was right that Christ was not mentioned explicitly. The text just says "a prophet like Moses" and there were MANY prophets that came after Moses and before Jesus. You could even call Mohamed the prophet if you wanted to. It's up to interpretation because it's not explicit.



I have never thought dissuading to be your motivation. However, we disagree that the Torah was falsified because there is no way to know since we don't have the original. What we see IS what we get on this one. However, if we read the text with the Helper, it will become easier to understand. However, the Helper was used to create the document in the first place and there were errors. Any interpretation can also have errors.

-Sab

PSACRAMENTO SAID



There is a difference between knowing religion and understanding it.
Most atheists have what is called a "sunday school" knowledge of religion, in short just enough to agree with what they think religion should be.

The bible is a collection of books and letters, all of different literary genres.
They were written TO the people they were written to BUT they were also written FOR the benefit of every believer.
What we must always do is remember that God accommodated himself to whom He was speaking to and that the writer(s) accommodated His message to their audience.

That is why Genesis is what it is and not a lesson in the science of the universe.