xjwsforChrist

LEANN SAID

wow... I am kinda glad I havent read all the accusations.. but in all honestly dont really care what they think.

I like this board because I can share my thoughts and what I have been taught in a way people may understand. Just because we may agree or had been taught similar things does not make it a cult.

Also if anyone would disagree with me, I welcome it,... I love to hear peoples thoughts and perceptions.

Those cult leaders wanted peoples love upon themselves and then to misuse that love to harm the very ones with whom had given it to them. They works to destroy love.

I see none of that here.

JUSTMOM SAID

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 5:56 pm Post subject:
Thank you for your thoughts HP

Well......The universal language I see spoken here is Love.......
We all agree and disagree on varying levels. We may or may not ALL believe in a "God"
But...The "ONLY" thing we ever owe anybody here on this forum is LOVE.
And I plan on keeping my end of the deal. Even when we may not always agree.

With Love to you ALL
justmom

SKALLY SAID

well, i tried anyway to be serious.

nothing above, as far as a reply to my exact question, helps me when thinking critically about what i asked.

it's a duh when it is stated he was a loon...same for jones....but...

THEY HEARD VOICES FROM GOD TOO AND TOLD EVERYONE IT WAS THE TRUTH SPOKEN TO THEM BY HIM AND TO GO TELL FORTH....BLAH,BLAH, BLAH AND THUSLY THEY WENT FORTH WITH WHAT THEY THEMSELVES ONLY HEARD AND 'CULT'-URALLY CONVINCED OTHERS THAT GOD WILL SPEAK AGAIN TO THEM, SO FOLLOW CLOSELY AND LISTEN....BLAH...........

Why discount what they heard to be truth spoken to them from their god, your god, our god, their god....blahhhhhhhhhhs god?? Why label them mentally dis-eased? They WERE of faith that these words spoken to them were in FACT coming straight from god, just as many here, there and everywhere faithfully BELIEVE. [MEMO: faith/belief is NOT Knowing...it makes no sense...{my god-my conscience-within tells me this everyday as protection}]

Henceforth, why are they classified as mentally ill, but, and, you and countless others are not? It's a pretty simple question I'm trying to critically wrap my brain around.

Help me out here?

sKally [[ oh and a sidenote...if i could pose these questions and such on the other forum, and get this entered into the disc, i would...but i cant...it is a critical question i'd love lots of feedback on

CHARIKLO SAID

Yes, they heard voices and yes, they told everyone it was the truth. I think you're saying there is a similarity with AGuest there....am I right?

The thing is, all those cult leaders told people, their followers, what to do, and demanded obedience. It's one of the telling signs of a cult, and one of the things that indicate that the Jehovah's Witnesses are all victims of a cult, but here? AGuest gives no indication of anything like that and if that were to happen we'd probably all just shrug and feel a bit concerned about her.

Does that help to answer your question?

AMMO SAID

Why are they classified as mentally ill.....hearing voices etc
possibly the amount of deaths may have something to do with it.
possibly the fact that they were led to remote areas with security that made it hard to get in or out.
possibly because in their own minds they became a God, and a law, and had the last say as to how to treat a person or situation.

There are many things one could attribute as to why they did what they did, and why they took live's.

None of that is relavant to this site,
no one is made to stay, post, or share details, all may leave when they want,and THANKFULLY this place seems to be able to communicate on a reasonable level with respect for an individual, that not only shows class, it shows the true gist of what Jesus msg was truly about.
We can all be tricky at time's, an honest appraisal of our motive's even just to ourselve's can be sobering to say the very least.
The men you have brought up in question clearly had no such respect for or motivation to self- honesty,or human life.
_________________
Whether you think you can or you can't - Your Right

GLADIATOR SAID

sKally


This is a fair question if you accept the notion that belief equals mental illness. This is a narrow perspective of how the mind works. The line between mental illness and sanity is a fine line. Everyone exists a fluctuating state of mind and opinion which changes and grows over time. People attribute these opinions and beliefs to various sources and influences. We share them, discuss them and seek to advance. This flexibility is only a problem to those who feel a need to force their views on others.

On this forum we strive to share, respond and watch where our seeking leads to. The benchmark is whether a persons beliefs stop a person from functioning effectively and being aware of their responsibilities to other humans that we share this planet with. Extremism is dangerous but a variety of beliefs can be accommodated if the desire to be fair is present. If the driving force is love then all things are possible.

I hope that talking with others and sharing your views helps you on your journey and helps you to enjoy peace of mind. There will always be unanswered questions and the journey may have no end.

SKALLY SAID

E for effort glad.

Yet, it still isn't close to what I'm looking for as far as a "critical thinking" reply. But thx for trying.

It's basic: how are the men i speak of in this thread any different in their faith that what they too were being told by god was truth, than shelby or others like her, that claim these things?

Am I not being clear in my quest(ion)? Again?

sKally

SKALLY SAID

I'm not wanting to get into the lethal part of these cults that these men ultimately orchestrated, that kill and killed children on a daily basis; whether it be their dead body or dead soul. It is hard enough knowing this is happening as we type and as we breathe, to countless of children in these 'groups'. Though I absolutely digress there.

Read my quest(ion) carefully. I am asking why are these men classified as mentally ill, if they too, claim such closeness to god that he spoke things to them, revealed things to them, that no other could see or hear?

Yes, their delusions, as it turned out, told the world they were an absolute fraud and corrupt and kill the most innocent of their members; the children...we all WITNESSED THE TRUTH that those voices were JUST IN THEIR HEAD.

Right? Or was it as they say, claim: god told them these things? AND HOW WOULD YOU BE ABLE TO PROVE IT WAS **not**FROM GOD? Who are we to say what he speaks to whom and to whom he speaketh to?

Is that a bit better to comprehend, or do you need more?

sKally

AGUEST SAID

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:42 pm Post subject:
Forgive my candor here dear Skal (peace to you) but I personally see two conundrums here: one is that by virtue of their false teachings and conduct tract records most "mainstream" religions are "cults"... or we're at one time. Most if not "Christian" communities had SOMEONE who claimed at some point to possess one or more gifts of holy spirit. But we can and test what is purportedly to have come FROM that spirit if we have concerns. If it pans out or there is valid corroboration then cool. If not well then it's unlikely such originated as claimed or from the source claimed.

The second thing though an this is probably closer for YOU is that whether to accept what another shares... or consider it simply cults peak... is really up to the individual. Hopefully, such one HAS developed sufficient critical thinking skills so as to be able to do this. Me for example, while I NOW have sufficient "discernment" skills to know when someone is BSing me as to things of a SPIRITUAL nature, because my Lord (and not man) has given me such skills as well as helped me to further develop them... I've really only recently learned to detect it with regard to HUMANS say. Unfortunately, I never learned how to rightfully distrust other people and so always gave the benefit of the doubt. Always, even when it wasn't deserved. I still do and will NOW but not because I unilaterally believe what the person is saying but because its the right thing to do... until THEY show me I shouldn't.

Sorry folks. Typing using phone - LOLOL

Anyway, dear Skal... I think the only one who can answer your question for YOU... IS you.

Peace to you all!

A slave sod Christ,

SA

SKALLY SAID

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:25 am Post subject:
i'm talking about THEIR HEART -CORE BELIEF. Just as you and others too BELIEVE IN YOUR HEARTS that god has spoken to and shown things only to you.

So are you saying there is no other explanation than, that they and others, yet not you, and others like you, were actually spoken to/visited by SPIRITS? And you by a truer god?

Ya know, for some reason, I've never been able to get that famous saying Judge Judy says in many of her cases, whe it comes to this subject and any subject where god and the devil are spoken of and about:

IF it doesn't make sense, it probably...isn't true. NOTE THE WORD PROBABLY.

But hey Shelby, you've had a pretty full weekend. I'll let ya slide on this one, as far as giving me something critical to go to bed with tonight. These topics produce fairly interesting dreams,sometimes. Sleep well.

sKally

SKALLY SAID

I've gone over the second part of your post a couple of times now and still can't quite get what you are saying.

Again, I'm asking about the topic of god speaking to one. Not if it's a cult, yet! Try to stay with me here and not think where I'm going to take you, okay? PEACE....

Before those guys became cultish and created a CULTure for others, they were like you Shelby. They heard god speak DIRECTLY to THEM. They saw things with their own eyes, as you did, in what god was showing them. They pro-claimed it as truth, just as you do and others like you. You say, yet, in not so many, if any words, that somehow they are different because SPIRITS were speaking to them, not god (i think thats what i'm getting as to what you are saying to me as an annswer) .

Of course it very well may have been god speaking things to jones, koresh and the heavens gate guy that you, i and the rest of civilization may not think god speaks to others. Some think god is evil and speaks such in disguise as Good. Some think god is Great. Some think god is a fantasy in ones Own Mind. Some think Ones Own Mind IS God. And some, just think. They do not Know. They think. Some think they Know.

The QUEST-ION is:

Those men THOUGHT god directed them in their Ways. How is that Sin?
How can it be even, if it was god speaking to them?

Do you get what I'm trying to grasp?
sKally

TEC SAID

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:01 am Post subject:
I can't state whether they were mentally ill or not, and I really don't know all that much about any of them. Just bits and pieces.

Hearing would not make them mentally ill.

But hearing something/someone (mentally ill or not) does not make it God (or Christ) who they claim to hear.

From their deeds and what I imagine they said God told them to do, we can discern for ourselves that it was not from God.

So perhaps they were mentally ill, perhaps they were listening to another spirit altogether (even if that is just their own 'narcissism' or something of the like); or perhaps they were liars who did not believe what they were saying at all, but got caught up in their own grandeur and lies.

But Christ (and so not God either) does not tell people to do the things that these above did. He does not give us leaders from among men, either... there is one leader, one teacher: that is Christ. We are none of us above the other. We do not have to listen to one another. The only thing we have to give one another is love. Not obedience, and not even agreement.

I hope that helps answer what you were asking, sKally.

Peace to you,
tammy

YPPUPLLEH SAID

as before it seems that you are asking a question and waiting for a specific answer. The real difference, between a person who hears God versus a person that is crazy is yourself. You choose what to believe based upon experience.

if you ask an athiest then their reply would be there is no difference.
if you ask a Christian then the reply would be the false cult leaders are of the devil it have mental illness.

tell me what answer would satisfy you sKally?
_________________

SKALLY SAID



How does anyone actually know this? They were not present when these voices were heard. True? How can one say they were not, in FACT, god? Who is to say it was not god? You can't say for sure. No one can, unless they were present.

{finishes eating her dessert}

TEC SAID

Were the voices supposedly heard by like everyone at once or something? (serious question, I do not know)

Because otherwise, no one can ever know what another person hears. One can only test what is being said.

So that is how I know.

Love and Christ... two things any message should be tested against.

Peace,
tammy