xjwsforChrist

MEDEWTYSENU SAID


Peace Be With You.

For a month now I've been homeless and preaching to the downtrodden. I have often wondered though if I am preaching to the right crowd. More often than not I am finding that people are so wrapped up in what a particular person teaches or what a particular verse says that they miss the "meat" of the subject.
I'll give an example of what I mean for those who haven't preached in a while to non-Witnesses.

Revelation 20:11-15


11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


These verses are familiar to many of us as they concern the final judgement and also the doing away with of Death and the Grave (rendered "hell" in the KJV) by being cast into the Lake of Fire.
Even though the scripture itself says what the Lake of Fire is (symbolizes the second death, no resurrection, everlasting cutting off) I'm having an issue trying to get people to understand that Yahveh does not punish people twice for their sins.

They INSIST that the Bible says that when you die, if having lived an immoral life, you go to Hell and then at the Judgement, you're judged again and cast back into Hell, though by doing so Yahveh would contradict his own judicial decisions plus punishing a person twice for the same sins. These people accept this with no problem (which tells me they really don't understand God at all or even know anything about him). Even though I point out how Jonah was in "hell"/Sheol, for 3 days/nights or how Job asked Yahveh to send him to Hell/sheol until he was called out. I tried to point out that "hell" was likely worse than anything that Job had yet endured and still people had no problem with inferring that Hell is a just punishment for those that have sinned.

Now here is a teaching I have never heard. Supposedly when Jesus died he went to Hell and preached to those there and those who listened to him will receive a favorable judgement, but they have to stay in hell until he calls them.
So if this is true, then where does the 1,000 year reign fit in?
I know the answers to these questions, basically the people have been misled. Unfortunately the King James version of the Bible seems to be the real culprit. I have met a few Southern Baptist preachers who readily admit that the Lake of Fire is not Hell, but lack understanding as to what it really is and so default back onto the old hellfire teaching (which is really irresponsible) or at least they don't admit to their flock that they don't know or have insight.

I suppose I have taken for granted the insight I have been given and not really understood how spiritually blind people are. I'm kinda at a loss to understand how to preach to these people. I get people telling me how they're intimidated by my knowledge. I'm not trying to brag on my self, just saying that I don't see myself as that smart at all, but apparently others see me differently and it's impeding my commission because they seem to feel they cannot relate to me and are intimidated.

Most of the time I preach to anyone who will listen. More often than not though I'm directed to a particular person and sometimes they listen and we have a nice discussion, sometimes not. At least I did what I was supposed to do.

I ask the Master for help but I get the same reply most often. "You need to figure this out on your own. Having me spoon feed you everything will not help you learn."
Since I'm at such a loss I figured asking for some help wouldn't be wrong..."as iron sharpens iron" and all that.

YS and FSofC (Your Servant and Fellow Slave of Christ)
Morgan
_________________
"Those that matter don't mind and those that mind don't matter"--Dr. Seuss

PSACRAMENTO SAID

What's your question?

DING SAID

There's also Luke 16 (rich man and Lazarus) that needs to be considered in any discussion of this topic.

JUSTMOM SAID





Dear Morgan

I broke up some of your post so I could mention a couple things that may help as it has me. You mentioned early about it seeming that Jah contradicts himself if he punishes people twice for the same sin. Hebrews 9:27 helped me "And it is reserved for men to die ONCE for all time, but after this a judgement."

You asked a question about those that have died that Jesus preached to and some receive a favorable judgement and where does the 1,000 year reign come in? These will be part of the resurrection that you quoted early on in Revelation 20:11-13. They are resurrected after the 1,000 yrs to either life or judgement.

As to who you are preaching to. Like you mentioned you are at least doing what we ought to be doing and that is to share what has been given to you freely. But remember it is those that our father is leading to the son and not us so sometimes preaching things that may be "meat" is not for them. Thay may not be asking for anything but a kind word and sometimes things spiritually that seem "generic" to us.

Hope this may help
Thanks for sharing
Justmom

DING SAID

I think part of the challenge of figuring out what the Bible really teaches is that we have years of indoctrination in WT definitions and spin. It's hard sometimes to get past this when studying the Bible for ourselves.

When interpreting the Bible, we need to consider all the passages that bear on a subject rather than latching onto one verse or partial verse as a proof-text, defining its terms however they make sense to us (or to the Governing Body), and then interpreting everything else in the Bible in accordance with the conclusion we've already reached.

The WT turns isolated proof-texts into mantras that stop all further thought, reflection, and inquiry.

Here are some examples:

1. "The wages of sin is death..." (Romans 6:23)

The WT defines death as the death of the body and teaches that there is nothing of a person beyond the body. There are many passages in the Bible that they have to ignore in coming to this conclusion. Several have been quoted or referred to in the posts above.

2. "The soul that sins shall die." (Ezekiel 18:4, 20)

This is not a statement about what happens after death. The context shows that it is talking about in this life God holding people personally accountable for their own sins and not the sins of others.

Ezekiel 18:20: "The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son; the
righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

21 But if a wicked man turns away from all the wicked sins which he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is right, he shall surely live; he shall not die."

3. "It is appointed to men once to die and after that comes judgment." (Heb. 9:27)

The WT equates "judgment" with the millennial reign of Christ and so defines "judgment" as a 1000 year testing period in which the resurrected person either progresses to perfection and receives everlasting life or doesn't make it and is annihilated.

But "judgment" isn't a testing period. It's the announcing of a decision -- a pronouncement of a sentence.

John 5:28-29 contrasts the "resurrection of judgment" with "the resurrection of life.": "28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment."

So "the resurrection of judgment" is not a testing period some people may pass. It's a day of decision at which evil ones receive their just punishment from God.

Those who have repented and trusted Jesus Christ as Savior do not come into judgment at all. Jesus said in John 5:24: "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."

LEANN SAID



That is the problem when it comes to explaining things to ones who have their entire life based their beliefs from a text. It can always be manipulated or debated. Unfortunatly it could continue for a life time, no matter what version of the Bible is used, or whose doctrine is used, even our own.

You are doing a good thing reaching out to those who our Lord would also 'feed and cloth'. Your covering for them is love, and food is that they are also loved and valued. This message may seem 'generic' as PaulSacramento said but it is truth and real, and does not need a text or doctrine to speak to their hearts about the Father you are speaking for. There is truth in simplicity.

Most people who have faith in God worry that he is going to destroy them, that their judgement, no matter what they do will, be negative. Many people serve him out of fear of destruction, instead of love. Would we ourselves want someone to love us because we have the power to destroy them, or would we much rather them love us for who we are, and that they desire to spend time in our company. Tell them why he is to be love, what is so wonderful about him, tell them how he really is, and then fear can be tossed aside, and focus on a judgment will become much less siginifant, for if they truely knew him, they would know how he feels about them.

Much love and peace to you
LeAnn

PSACRAMENTO SAID

The bible was never meant to be read "by verse".
Each book and letter is to be read within its proper context.
The bible has many different literary genres.
There are historical books, parables, "myths", letters and even "divine revelations".
Within these types we have the writings of various authors with different styles and purposes and aims.
Some are to be taken literal, some hyperbole, some as literal AND concrete while others are just beautiful poems.
The bible is a PROGRESSIVE revelation of God's word THROUGH HUMAN words.
It is infallible in the sense that, when used for its intended purpose it doesn't fail to get across what God intended.
It is inspired in the sense that those that wrote it were inspired by the HS to write what they saw, and at times, what God had spoken to them or to one of His prophets.

The bible points Us to God THROUGH Christ, it is NOT a substitute for them.

JUSTMOM SAID




Yes Ding


This is so true. They pride themselves on quoting Revelation 21:3 &4 ...about a new heavens and new earth and that there is no more death outcry and mourning that the former things have passed away...and then during the 1,000 yr reign the so-called resurrected if they do not conforn they are zapped on earth so they do not bring wicked influence to mankind. So....death is not done away with! THEN....at the end of the 1,000 yr. reign when Satan is released from the abyss you have Gog and then they are destroyed forever. Soooo...death REALLY wasn't a former thing that passed away.

And as far as interpretation as mentioned....the bible can be a tool to lead us to our Lord and Savior, but it is NOT a substitiute. So when in doubt the best way to be sure is to go to the source himself and listen and put faith in it. [b] John 5:39&40


Thanks for all the comments
with Love Justmom

Quote:

AGUEST SAID

Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:51 pm Post subject:
I LOVE this discussion (peace to you, all!) Dear MS (peace to you!), I know YOU know that our goal isn't necessarily to have others listen to US... but to our Lord. And... for US to be obedient and SERVE. As dear 'Mom stated... we don't know who or who will not respond to the calling - not our concern, really. Our concern should be whether we who HEAR the call "KEEP" saying "Come!"

"Let anyone HEARING say 'Come!'" Revelation 22:17

That is our work... not deciding who responds and who doesn't... or whether, in the face of NO response... we should continue. Ours is not to wonder why; ours is just to herald the call.

Our Lord told Peter to "feed" his sheep. Yet, he didn't say... "And everyone you speak to is a sheep"... or that everyone Peter spoke to would listen. To the contrary, actually, right?

The issue is whether we let others apathy to, or misunderstanding/rejection of our message discourage US... and move US to leave off from our work. The only one we are to be concerned with in this regard is ourselves. Think Noah... and how he would have fared had he concluded that since NO ONE wanted to hear his message... NO ONE listened, got it, or joined him (excluding his sons)... NO ARK should have been built. What if Moses had concluded that since none of the Israelites really believed [in] him... even after seeing the plagues AND leaving Egypt... that he should just stop, leave them out there and go his own way.

It isn't about how many listen to US, dear one - we're nobody, just servants. We HAVE to keep that in mind... while we keep our eyes... and ears... on the One we "work" for. We have not been sent to entire nations, nations that consider themselves the "chosen" of God. We have not been asked to be nailed to a pole on behalf of people who don't listen to... or even perhaps hate us. We have simply been asked to tell others of the WONDERFUL GOOD NEWS... and blessing of holy spirit!... that WE have received.

And that's really all we CAN do. Whether they hear... or refrain. As our Lord said, "In the world YOU are having tribulation. TAKE COURAGE - I HAVE CONQUERED the world!" He's not asking us to do even an iota of what he did, dear one. So we shouldn't easily be discouraged or moved from our course. And we WON'T be... if we remember: it isn't ABOUT us.

The greatest of love and peace to you all!

YOUR servant, sister, and fellow slave of Christ,

SA

MEDEWTYSENU SAID

The thing that I have tried to impart to people when reading any scripture is this: God is Love.

If there is any scripture that seems to contradict this one unifying principle then it is we (not God) who are in error. We have the wrong meaning of the text and the burden falls upon us to research the matter further, not just blindly accepting what is said or what we think the text means.

However I do get the occasional response that God can do whatever he pleases for his ways are unknown to us and what we may see as injustice is in reality quite merciful.
So in other words people will accept that God is love, then read a passage that seems to indicate that we're punished twice for the same sin, then they will say God has the right to do that because he's the Creator.
They just don't seem to get that God would seem to be a hypocrite by taking such action AND if such a thing were true he could have simply smote Adam, Eve and Satan and started over because he has the right to do so just by virtue of being the Creator.
I chalk this type of reasoning up to the listener simply not knowing/understanding God. He MUST follow his own judicial decisions, for if he didn't how could he expect anyone else to love, listen or obey him? If he were capable of discarding justice then everything since Adam (all the suffering of humanity) has all been in vain. He could end it at any moment, and wipe out anyone who disagreed with him because after all He's the Creator.

I shake my head sometimes at people's blindness.

Your Servant and Fellow Slave of Christ,
Morgan
_________________
"Those that matter don't mind and those that mind don't matter"--Dr. Seuss

AGUEST SAID

Amen... and amen, dear MS (the greatest of love and peace to you!). I, too, often shake my head... and then I hear our Lord say, "Have pity for them, child, because you once where blind, as well. I have opened YOUR eyes. Should you not want that theirs' are opened, too?" And he is right, I DO want that! Imagine, if you can, if EVERYONE GOT IT!!

Of course, some will ask, "Well, why doesn't he just OPEN everyone's eyes?" I am smiling because I did ask that. And he used another to give me understanding:

Picture, if you will one with his hands clamped tight over his eyes so that not even LIGHT can get it. Then, someone comes along and gently removes his hands. Well, then, he can see NOW, can't he? No, he can't. Not if he won't open his own eyes!

Our Lord can remove one's hands, dear one... even give them eyesalve, if their eyes are "diseased". But even after these things... he can't make them open their eyes, if they don't WANT to. Only they can do that... and only if they WANT to.

Take heart, though: you wanted to!

Again, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

SA

JUSTMOM SAID



YES Morgan

I too agree!

It is ALWAYS us who is in error. With Jaheshua as the perfect mirror of our father Jah he reminded me of the little bracelets that were so popular for a while that said "WWJD" (what would jesus do?) If you don't see him doing it because he TOO is Love as his father IS lOVE then.....he didn't DO it or SAY it! And we are always to keep our eyes on Him (the copper serpent)

Thanks for sharing
Love Justmom