xjwsforChrist

John 5:22: Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,
Rom 2:16: This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

John says the Father does not judge. Paul says He does (albeit through Christ). Which is it?

Men are actually judged by their own words and deeds. And by the measure that you use, it will be used against you.

Want to be shown mercy, then SHOW mercy... type thing.

There is no judgment at all for those who are in Christ, because His blood covers them.

For the rest, Christ separates the sheep and the goats, yes... inviting the sheep into the kingdom and casting the goats outside. Though their own words and deeds have judged them. (As He also said, those who did good and showed kindness to even the least of his brothers is invited into the kingdom.)


At the second resurrection, when the dead are brought before the judgment... again their own words and deeds, as recorded in their books, have judged them. (their words - because out of the hearts abundance, the mouth speaks - and their deeds)


The two verses that you listed though... seem to be saying the same thing. God judges mens secrets THROUGH Christ.


Peace,
tammy

The mistake is in thinking that you can have one without the other.

The perfect union of Father and Son means that all the Father does, the Son does and all the Son does, the Father does.

I agree. I see the two versus referring to the same thing.

But,

In the separation, they stand before CHRIST and receive life or not based on now they TREATED his brothers. Their own actions or their words determined their salvation as Tammy mentioned.

But in Revelation 20 11-15 they stand before Jah at this point. Being resurrected back to earthly bodies, they are judged by Jah based again on whether they were written down in the lambs book ..
(By their own actions and words while they were alive) and therefore receive a different body by being given a white robe and inherit the kingdom OR ..

Were NOT found in the lambs book of life and then JAH is the one that throws BOTH body and spirit into eternal death.
That is only reserved for Jah.

But in either account, it is by the individuals own actions that determine how they would be treated.
And always remembering that Jah can still show mercy to whom HE chooses. He knows the hearts!

Love
Justmom

I disagree that their SALVATION is based on what they did, that is works based salvation and not salvation by grace.

If our salvation is based on what we DO, what did Christ die for?

JOHN 5:



Those who believe and hear The Word are NOT judged, this is salvation by His Divine grace so all that hear Him may have eternal life.

Judgment and salvation based on works is for those that do NOT believe in Christ.

Hello Paul,

This is reference to those that are NOT in union with CHRIST, NOT of His body. They did not have a covering from CHRIST based on FAITH in him. Their covering or access to gaining their salvation was on the basis of how they treated Christs brothers.
Deeds! This is why he said what he did. " To the extent you DID or DID NOT do such things."

Just wanted to share
Love Justmom

Mat 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne.


Mat 25:32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.


Mat 25:33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.


Mat 25:34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.


Mat 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,


Mat 25:36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'


Mat 25:37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?


Mat 25:38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?


Mat 25:39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'


Mat 25:40 "The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.'


Mat 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.


Mat 25:42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,


Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'


Mat 25:44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'


Mat 25:45 "He will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'


Mat 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

We are saying the same thing, Paul. There is no judgment for those who are in Christ. His blood covers them. (grace)



But for those who are NOT in Christ (those who do not believe in Him... and some of those who THINK that they belong to Him but who are not known BY Him)... such as the sheep and the goats, and all the dead who are resurrected at the second resurrection... these ones are judged according to what is written in their books - their own words and deeds judge them - (and they are given life if their names are written in the lamb's book of life), or if He invites them (the sheep) into the Kingdom.

And as JM said, God may have mercy upon whomever He will have mercy upon.

Peace,
tammy

Loz x

_________________
"This is my son. LISTEN to Him!"

Great question, dear LQ (peace to you!)... and I am in union with what dear tec and 'Mom posted (peace to you, both!). This is also a WONDERFUL opportunity to help those who wish to do so better know my Lord... and the kind of person he TRULY is, which personage he learned from the Father.

Like the man Joseph, ALL power and authority has been given my Lord, the HOLY One of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah). ALL power/authority, except over JAH Himself. Lamb that he IS, however, my Lord, although having receive the AUTHORITY to judge... the living AND the dead... judges NO ONE. Rather, he turns the judging BACK over to the Father!

Imagine if you can, the kind of HUMILITY and meekness it would take for man (even a woman!) to have been given ALL authority... in heaven AND on earth... gracefully and graciously rejecting that honor... and power... and giving it BACK to the one who granted it to him! Most of us would... could... not do that. WAY too much glory to be had! Oh, the "things" we would "fix" and do!

My Lord, though, rather than doing what most of US would do and say:

"Oh, wow, REALLY??!! You mean I get to say who gets to live and who get to DIE??!! I'm all WORTHY like that??!! Oh, man, some heads are gonna ROLL!"...

... said, INSTEAD:

"Thank you, Father, but no... the kingdom is YOURS; I am YOUR servant... and a FELLOW slave of those who worship YOU... so no, here: I give it BACK to you for YOU to judge... for YOU are greater than I am and YOU are the One worthy do to it!"

This, even though he was DEEMED worthy!

But we can know that this is how it will because both Daniel and John TELL us that is the Father who judges. First, from Daniel:

“I watched till thrones were put in place, And the Ancient of Days was seated; His garment was white as snow, And the hair of His head was like pure wool. His throne was a fiery flame, its wheels a burning fire; a fiery stream issued and came forth from before Him. A thousand thousands ministered to Him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him. The court was seated, And the books were opened.

“I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

“I was watching in the night visions, and behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him near before Him.
Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His kingdom the one which shall not be destroyed." Daniel 7:9-14

Then from John:

"Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works." Revelation 20:11-14

These two saw the SAME event: the Judgment.

In Daniel's vision, he sees the MOST Holy One of Israel sitting down on HIS throne, given scrolls/books, and the "court" (Judgment) taking place... AFTER which he saw my Lord, the HOLY One of Israel, coming on a cloud (Matthew 24:30)... and being given the FULL kingdom. In John's vision, he sees the MOST Holy One of Israel sitting down on HIS throne, given scrolls/books, the general resurrection... and the Judgment (taking place).

We KNOW that neither of these men saw CHRIST judging... but JAH's throne... because they saw the SAME event and in Daniel it was the "Ancient of Days" who took HIS seat and was given the scrolls/books... AFTER which the Son was brought forward TO Him... and given the kingdom. Christ was king BEFORE this event, true, in that he was ruling in the MIDST of his enemies... including the last enemy, death. That part of his rule was him subduing (teaching peace) to his Body. He was ruling, however, from the RIGHT hand of God. Once the LAST enemy, death, was destroyed... the ENTIRE kingdom was given to him:

"JaHVeH said to my Lord, 'Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.' JaHVeH shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion. Rule in the midst of Your enemies!" Psalm 110:1, 2

"Then comes the end, when he (Christ) delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He (the FATHER) puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For he (Christ) must reign till He (JAH) has put all enemies under his (Christ's) feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. For “He (JAH) has put all things under his (Christ's) feet.” But when he (Christ) says “all things are put under him (Christ),” it is evident that He (JAH) who put all things under im (Christ) is excepted. Now when all things are made subject to him (Christ), then the Son himself will also be subject to Him (JAH) who put all things under him (Christ), that God may be all in all." 1 Corinthians 25:24-28

JAH gave ALL authority to Christ... except as to Himself. In TURN, for purposes of the JUDGMENT, Christ gives ALL of that authority BACK to JAH... so that even Christ's LAST enemy... death... is destroyed. After which JAH gives the ENTIRE kingdom... BACK to Christ... and He, JAH... THROUGH His king, Christ... becomes all things... IN all... and NOT just in Christ. THEN, Christ inherits the FULL kindgom and doesn't rule from JAH's right hand... but from JAH's throne itself! JAH, then, gives it ALL over to Christ... and basically "retires"... becoming in ALL.

But this drama aside, we can also know that Christ does not judge (although he is given all authority to do so), but his own words:

"For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son." John 3:17, 18

“But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set." John 5:45

"You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. But if I do judge, my decisions are true, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me." John 8:15

“He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me. And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me. I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness. And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak.” John 12:44-50

THIS is the King the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies, chose for HIS people! And among many other things, this should show us WHY!

PRAISE JAH, you people... for NO ONE except the Lamb has been found worthy!

I hope that helps, dear LQ, and again, peace to you!

YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

Shellama

AH yes, I apologize, I seemed to have missed this part of Justmom's post:


My bad.


* gets spanking and loves it*

(Shellama ducks, looking for shadow flying overhead... )

Peace and LOLOLOLOL!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama, thinking, "Oh no he di'n't!" LOLOLOL!

Thank you ALL for your insight.

Well, nearly, but not quite. The emphasis is wrong.

Quite explicitly, it is Jesus Christ who will come again and judge everyone, the living and the dead. That's what we are told. There's no two ways round it.

It certainly isn't a question of us being judged by our sins, passively, as if by magic or some kind of permeable influence or anonymous force. No. Jesus will judge us in His mercy, and if our humble approach is "Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner", then so much the better for us.

Very, very wrong and an insult to God is the Watchtower teaching that it is up to us to "keep ourselves in God's love". Such arrogance! No matter how good a person may seem or even may think he is, not one single human being is or will ever be perfect, because there has only ever been one perfect man, Jesus himself.

HOWEVER, we know that when He comes He will exercise mercy, so we know that He will take everything into account when He does so. And that He sees not as men see but as God sees, because, of course, we know that Jesus Christ is God.



I keep reading that on this forum. It is very very wrong. Is that an interpretation of the concept of Jesus' death being a propitiation for our sins, as Saint Paul puts it? That's a misunderstanding. Christ died once for all upon the Cross for our sins, yet to think that that meant that any sins we commit are therefore all wiped clean before we even start is both smug and nonsensical, as well as being the ultimate in arrogant folly, though basically at root it is a major error which those holding to it would be very wise to abandon, humbly and in penitence, as fast as they can.

There again is the wrongness of this thinking. "Those who are in Christ" will receive no judgement? Nonsense! It's the arrogance of the Pharisee who said "Thank God I am not as other men are." This attitude of assuming one is saved while looking down one's nose at those who will be judged, in our own minds, is folly of the highest order. Jesus makes it clear that it is those who repeatedly come to him in penitence and sorow but with faith in his mercy and forgiveness are those who will be received by him with open arms. Hence the tale of the Prodigal Son.

It really does worry me that there are people who will read this and think to themselves that they are all right because they are "part of the Body of Christ". The Body of Christ is the Church of God, which is not a building but the body of all believers. That does not mean those on this forum and a few more. That means ALL believers, those who believe in One God, the Father Almighty, and that Jesus Christ is his only Son. He is our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate and was crucified, dead and buried, yet on the third day he rose again, ascended into Heaven and is seated at the right hand of God the Father. And that from there He will come to judge both the living and the dead. And in the Holy Spirit, the forgiveness of sins, the Resurrection of the body and the life everlasting.

That is the sum of Christian belief. While this declaring that certain people are part of the Body of Christ is true to a certain extent, it is true only insomuch as it is true of all believers who are part of the universal (catholic) church, the body of all who believe.



Yes, provided it is understood that this will be on the final day of judgement.

Remember, there is no "who judges, God or Christ?" Because Jesus is God. The Father and the Son are God, united in union with each other, with and in the Holy Spirit. So there isn't really any "either, or". They are separate Persons in one God.

One who loves spankins I see!!!,

okay then...

Justmom.

The letter of Jude is where the phrase "keep yourselves in God's love" comes from. It's an interesting read, and there was a reason Jude wrote it, apparently. Unfortunately, WT uses this as fear-mongering instead of what it was intended for, which was to watch out for the deception of those who deny the Christ (Jude 4).