xjwsforChrist

AGUEST SAID

Crud... "hope many threads do... and "while" we try and get to the bottom of some things. Gotta remember the edit function is gone - rachafracharachafracha...

Peace!
_________________
Paz a todos!

Su sirviente, compañera de estudios, y un esclava de Cristo,

SA

SABASTIOUS SAID



I do have a source, but I didn't want to come onto your forum simply proclaiming that the Torah and the I CHING are deeply connected. I would rather make my case by establishing points thread by thread and building from there. In the beginning I will sound chaotic, but it will eventually refine, I assure you. Simply stated I currently believe that at least the first 8 chapters of Genesis profoundly mimic the first 8 hexagrams of the I CHING. The 4th Hexagram correlates to Genesis 4:



MedewtySenu gave us some wonderful information that shows the modern theory of Cain and Abel is well established. I take that theory (with my own tweaks if need be) and affirm it with the idea that the I CHING was created either by the same foundational system that created the Torah, or the I CHING was crafted FROM the Torah (or possibly the other way around, but that seems unlikely).

If you notice at the end of Genesis 4 we have the birth of Enoch that is a direct cause and effect resulting from God's mercy for Cain. Since Enoch "walked with God" he should be regarded as an extremely important figure.



The Torah is very secretive as it would seem about this man even though he is shown to be very instrumental in the progress of human kind. This, again, shows evidence that God's choice to have mercy on Cain was because Cain had godly traits. It was not until Jesus did fruit become mainstream symbology.

A group called the Fugurists believe Enoch to be the Chinese folk lore character Fu Xi, who was attributed to the writing of the I CHING.



Interestingly the myth of Fu Xi is yet another flood story that is shown as the "entire world." I wrote a thread on why I believe the flood of the Torah could not have been global. The same could be said for the Fu Xi myth but in the Chinese desert this time (which means TWO floods and TWO families).



Scholars of the I CHING admit that the document was of foreign origin to the Chinese people. Chinese mythology says it came through a "Yellow River" delivered on the skin a Dragon Horse. I believe it to be allegorical. I got this idea from a man named Joe E Mccaffree who wrote a book on the subject and was educated by a great master. His claim is that it was actually the Tribe of Dan that traveled to China, possibly back and forth, through the river system bringing their religion with them with intent on influencing the Chinese society. He says that Dan actually went and became a figurehead in the Chinese community as "Duke of Chou." He says that he was one of three Holy Sages that created the I CHING or progressed the writings of Enoch. The I CHING has problems similar to the Torah and the Bible in general because it has to be translated. It's a deep mystery that I find irresistible.

A man named Wilhelm from Germany did a final translation by keeping in touch with a local Chinese community that is now LOST IN TIME. His and a few other translations are all we have left in the internet age. Interestingly China removed the I CHING from their governmental system and are now totally secular (see The Three Principles of the People).

It could be that Dan was using the writings of Enoch (Fu Xi, the flood survivor) which included the Trigrams which make up most of all the eastern religions. They take them in vastly different directions, but Christianity has tens of thousands of denominations so it's the same thing.

The Book of Enoch seems to be a total fraud and a misdirection. Enochian Magic (The Masons are big on it) is also a fraud and may be a misunderstanding of the Torah/I CHING relationship creating a "magical art" which ends in being dropped into the Mouth of Satan. They use imagery of "4 Watchtowers" and the I CHING can be broken up into four equal parts (side note).

So the reason why I am saying all of this is that while I trust you and your Lord and deeply respect you, I have my own source and I am perfectly happy with it as I believe we are both working for the Son of God, the Firstborn over all creation. Frankly I would like to refine my ideas for preaching, but only if they are worthy of such a campaign. Which is why I am here, to be challenged because I don't want to believe something that is not actually correct. But I don't want to not believe the truth because I am ignorant.

I also don't want to put up my method against any other. Just know that I DID ask God for direction and he HAS given it to me. You seem to imply that I am lacking in direction as I could just "ask" and lack faith. I don't think I lack faith, I think I lack the time to explain all this, but that just means that it will be spread out. Please have patience. Asking and doing are interconnected because without doing the questions can never be answered.

Call me a rationalist, but I need to have a method that I can wrap my head around and show others, because without that I basically have to ask for faith in someone else and I do not want that. I don't think you ask for faith either, Shebly, but that's what it boils down for me when you say that Isaiah 45:7 has no known accurate translation. You could be totally right, but I cannot reproduce your method so I cannot give it the same weight as you. I asked God to direct me to the inter workings of the how the East and West are connected because I had faith that they were. He lead me to the water and I am attempting to drink, but that's just the first metaphor in an endless stream of conscious thought. Because that's what true freedom truly is, freedom of the mind.

I still have not satisfactorily answered the question as to why there is suffering because it still greatly agonizes me that there is and has been so much. One thing I have learned is that anxiety means that you are pushing through something, and it should not always be run from like the plague. Everything is always changing, or TRANSCENDING towards God and that process is painful, yes, but how painful does it HAVE to be? I think that's a noble pursuit, whether you want to join the Peace Corp, or be a medical doctor. That inner need to make our community a better place is what will propel our world into a future that we can all live with.

-Sab

AGUEST SAID

My apologies, dear Sab (again, peace to you!), as, yes, I did misunderstand. I am sure that you can understand that your... mmmmm... "process" lends to some confusion because we don't know where you're headed. Until now, there didn't seem to be the... mmmmm... "connection" you state is there, so I can only respond to what you post in the moment. So I hope you don't take my responding to what you are posting as impatience or haste. If you wish to have others wait until you have completed your thought processes BEFORE responding, no worries - you only need state that at the start. Then we all can sit back and watch you on your journey. If you engage... and invite engagement... however, one can only respond to what you've stated at the time. Again, I cannot read your mind so I don't know where you're headed.

As for the potential connection between the I Ching and Torah, I have no doubt - I have posted several times regarding the connection between the Hebrews and the East. Indeed, Abraham, the progenitor of the Hebrew belief system, came from the East/Orient... and carried many of the same beliefs of that region with him. He and his father were called OUT of the East... to a land that the Most Holy One of Israel was to give them (Terah didn't make it, unfortunately)... because those IN the East had left off from following the true God. They had created multiple deities for themselves, etc., and gotten caught up in idol worship, etc.

So not only are you going to find many similarities between the Torah and I Ching, but between the belief as to dragons, spirit beings, counting years, etc.

I will wait, though, and see where you're taking us. Until then, again, peace to you!
_________________
Paz a todos!

Su sirviente, compañera de estudios, y un esclava de Cristo,

SA

SABASTIOUS SAID

I much enjoyed your take on Isaiah 45:7, Shelby, I believe it will help me a great deal down the road. It brings up the touchy subject of personal revelation for me, however. I just recently ended a study I was having with the Mormon missionaries in my local area. I studied with them on a weekly basis for about 3 months as well as engaged with them in social activities. It was a very rich experience. At first the missionaries had no idea how to deal with me, as it was very apparent that I was extremely different than what they usually expect. Exasperated after a 2-3 hour session, they turned to a Bishop who then sat in on many sessions. This guy was a powerhouse of theology and a worthy opponent, but even he could not convince me that theirs was the true church. He had an unyielding faith, however, that I could not deny. Nothing like the faith that of a JW, nothing at all.

They have a similar explanation of personal revelation as you, Shelby. They said that each family has a spiritual head and that head decides how the personal revelation works. So if it's a voice, then it's a voice, if it's a burning feeling while researching and coming across what would normally be a trivial fact then it's that etc.

The I CHING works entirely differently, as it is based on "casting lots" so to speak. In fact, I would go as far as to say it's a superior system of divination to that of the Mormons. Simply put the I CHING contains all the possible outcomes of any given circumstance in anyone's life in any time and culture. It always directs you where you are destined, never less, never more.

Consider what etymonline.com has to on the word Oracle:



So the Mormon church essentially teaches that the head of the house IS an Oracle for their family. These heads pay keen attention to what the Mormon Prophet and his Apostles say, which are other family head Oracles. But it's against the rules to dictate to another Oracle, or another family head. This is what YOU seem to be, the spiritual head of your family and you are given divination. You hear a voice, which is probably that way because that's the way you personally like it. I, on the other hand, would freak the f*** out if I heard a voice in my head that said it was the Son of God. I'd rather another approach be given. In fact, I have actually told God specifically NOT to speak to me audibly as it would probably just ruin my life.

I debated this with the Mormon's on LDS.net which turned into a lively conversation.

The I CHING can be used AS an Oracle system, as can the Torah and the books based off it that make up the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament. Using the I CHING and the Torah together requires high understanding of both. The Mormons are really not OK with any members using the I CHING specifically as they essentially called it outdated (they also don't acknowledge the connection). They claim similar to you that the Christian way is superior (praying, reading the Bible, gathering together with out Christian's, getting revelation from Christ etc). The I CHING as an Oracle system has literally transformed my life in a positive way. It basically does psychology with you informing you on what you DON'T want to hear about yourself. Like a friend that will never sugar coat things for you, but will never tear you down and only build up (Isaiah 9:6). Such experiences have been reported by MANY Christian's and this is because this side of the world has written Oracle systems too. To account for the PREFERENCE of how people want to communicate with their Creator (but if you want to be a Druid? Or Jedi? They have systems too and should not be judged).

I have always had an extreme interest in China even as a JW kid. Each year I would eagerly await the WT issue that had the preaching work report numbers by country. The first one I would always look for was China because I knew there was so many people there and I worried about them because we were consistently NOT there. I was always taught that God never leaves stones unturned and a billion plus people is a lot to leave behind. The answer is that he doesn't leave anyone behind, ever. We are worth more than many sparrows.

So basically, what I am saying is that I don't want to challenge your system of communication with your Creator, but I would love to show you how mine works, because without knowledge of the options, our true preferences are not being availed to us.

To me the I CHING is a missing volume to a collection of Jewish Scripture. The reason why China did their own thing was because they had it taken care of for the most part BECAUSE of the I CHING. Just like the Jews, only when they strayed from their Law and succumbed to legalism did they falter. If you follow the direction of the I CHING you will have nothing but prosperity and influence to society to look forward too. If you don't do what it tells you, disaster is not far away.

It's interesting that Enoch is this mysterious character in the Torah is it not? Because we KNOW that humans are prone to prejudice and do not want to be affiliated with each other. They will even go to lengths to CONCEAL the fact that they were affiliated, due to the hate of maybe only a few who assume power. Since Enoch was the son of Cain, the outcast, how would people have treated him, even though he was the brilliant beginning of one of the greatest empires to even reign the earth?


I have a lot more to say on the sibling rivalry of Abel and Cain, but I will have to work on that tomorrow. Good night and thanks for listening.

-Sab

PSACRAMENTO SAID

The Book Of Enoch ( known as 1Enoch or the Book of the watchers) is a fascinating book.
Typical of the apocalyptic genre and shares much with revelation.

AGUEST SAID

Good morning, dear Sab... and peace to you! Okay, let's continue (but, again, I can only respond to what you post... not what you WILL post as things become clearer to you - LOL!).




Not sure how this is similar, dear one, except perhaps the potential to hear a voice. Other than that... But I would like to address the "spiritual head" matter. Per Paul, the head of the household is the husband, as Christ is the head of HIS household. As interpreted by the WTBTS and others, then, women have a place of some level of subjection/submissiveness to such head, particularly in matters of faith and spirituality. I understand that to be a belief within the LDS system, as well. This is totally an error, though, which was borne of the previous Jewish system and its misogyny.

Christ himself made no distinction between men and women when it came to the matter of FAITH, however, as evidence by his speaking to the Samaritan woman, assisting the Phoenician woman, healing the Jewish woman, etc., and commenting ON the faith of these (which apparently exceeded that of his male disciples at the time).

I say this to say that, contrary to what Paul SEEMED to be saying, there is no "spiritual head" in a family, per se - ALL have the opportunity to hear... and receive holy spirit. Male AND female, husband AND wife, parent AND child, young AND old. That receipt would constitute one a "priest"... and thus, any one who would perceive themselves as a "head' would, in obeisance to Christ, make himself/herself a LEAST one in that household... a SERVANT to the others.

The true manifestation of a spiritual "head", therefore, as Christ showed HIS household.. is seen in Job, who offered up prayers and sacrifices on behalf of his children... just in CASE they had sinned:

"Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings [according] to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually." Job 1:5

In this regard, Job was not acting as a spiritual "head"... so much as he was acting as the family PRIEST, which some might interpret to mean spiritual "head" but is not really so, as Christ is the ONLY "head". Even so, Job's WIFE could have done the same, as could any one of his children. The account helps us to see, however, that it was Job who revered the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, and not his wife. (Job 2:9)




But this isn't different from the Hebrew tradition PRIOR to the outpouring of holy spirit, dear one (except as such related to the apostles). Indeed, Matthias was chosen to replace Judas by a casting of lots:

"Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles." Acts 1:26

Again, this was part of Jewish worship and tradition, included even in the ancient priesthood as purposed by the urim and thummin (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urim_and_Thummim). That it has similarities with Eastern worship is, again, not surprising given where Abraham came from... and the beliefs he took with HIM when he left the East for Canaan. Prior to the establishment of the Law Covenant and its related priesthood, including the ephod and urim/thummin, it was back TO Canaan that the Israelites were sojourning.



Personally, I'm a bit flabbergasted to know that the LDS still adhere to that system of divination... while claiming a union with Christ. Why not simply listen to HIM? Why not simply allow him to SPEAK through holy spirit?? Personally, I don't get it, other than to say they don't... because they haven't received such spirit. Yet. ("Lord, Lord, didn't we do... in your name?")



I have no doubt, dear one. Unfortunately, though, the I CHING is a form of divination that constitutes another "door" by which "thieves break in and steal." So, I would have to refrain from using its powers to gain access. There is only one Door for me. Could I perhaps get the same information from the I CHING as I would from my Lord? Perhaps. However, the I CHING, while perhaps telling me my future as to THIS life... cannot give me everlasting life in the NEXT one. Only One can do that... and so I'll just go through him. If there's something I don't know then I have to conclude that (1) either I don't NEED to know it; or (2) I WILL know it, in his due time, because he would never withhold something from me that I needed. I am more than happy receiving what HE knows I can "bear" at any given time, then, and waiting for the rest. He never fails, so...



Interesting... and way to... mmmmmm... "protocol-ish" for me, dear one. And dangerous, IMHO, as if no one can question what another "oracle" states, then the opportunity for others to be misled is quite high. I would even question the Most Holy One of Israel Himself... if His edict/revelation didn't seem right. Abraham did. Moses did. Even my Lord did ("Eli, Eli, lama sabacthani?!"). I mean, I would do it most RESPECTFULLY, with my body prostrated and face to the ground... but I would do it. Because I don't believe the Most Holy One of Israel WANTS us to just sit back and let Him proffer unrighteous edicts simply because He IS the Most Holy One of Israel. He isn't that exacting. We, humans, are.




Everyone in my household hears, dear one: my husband AND my children. None of us are head of any others of us, though; to the contrary, we all serve one another. I tend to hear MORE... because, apparently (1) I listen more, because (2) I love him more, because (3) I am grateful for what he has forgiven ME. This was the explanation given me when I asked. I would personally add to that that I listen more because I can HEAR more because I am able to be less distracted by outside influences/stimuli. The things that concern most people (i.e., that which is seen with the eyes) don't really concern me so I am not distracted by them... in my thinking OR my hearing.

I should not forget to add these very important truths, too, that perhaps I have a bit more faith but if so, its only because he gave me more... because I asked for it... and because he has NEVER lied to me, not once, and so I trust him... completely and explicitly. I don't have the fear that some have ("What if I'm wrong?"). I don't have that because I KNOW who is speaking because what he says ALWAYS make sense as to other things he has said. He would not, for example, tell me to love even my enemies... to FORGIVE them... then have me pronounce a calamity/curse on someone. Never.



Well, I mean, I DID freak out, initially - LOL! Although, that's not exactly what he said - LOL! He said, "I am the Christ." I almost had a heart attack when he first showed himself to me "plainly" - LOLOL! I mean, it's not for the faint of heart, no. Neither: hearing OR seeing. Hence, we can't be cowards about it.



Ah, dear one... you don't know what you've asked for, truly. You have shown yourself afraid to receive one of THE most valuable gifts a human could ever receive. BUT... that only tells me that you truly ARE Israel. They, too, weren't able to take God's voice speaking to THEM:

"You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom and storm; to a trumpet blast or to such a voice speaking words that those who heard it begged that no further word be spoken to them, because they could not bear what was commanded: "If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned." [/b]Hebrews 12:18-20[/b]

Because of this, Moses was appointed by the people to speak with God FOR them. You, now, are asking that even the One appointed as YOUR mediator not speak to YOU. One should always be careful what one asks for...


I bet that was an interesting interchange - LOL!


I do not disagree... but WHY? Why do things the HARD way? Why try to figure out what someone meant... or others meant as to him... when you can simply ASK... and RECEIVE... from HIM? Work smarter, not harder, you know?


Yes, and since I don't have that high understanding myself, I must rely on One who does. Of course, there are many HUMANS who claim such understanding; I would venture, however, that no matter the height of their knowledge... they would still fall short of the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies... and thus, His Son, the Holy One of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah). So, I put MY money on these two.



Ummmmmm... wait. No, I make NO such claim, dear one. You're confusing me with someone else, sorry. Most who call themselves "christians" don't even KNOW the christian "way"... and it is one: through Christ. Sure, prayer is good, gathering from time to time is good, reading scripture and other writings can help if one lack faith. But the bottom line is listening to Christ... whose voice isn't always manifested in revelation (as most perceive that word). The christian way is only superior if the Christian acknowledges that Christ IS that Way... and that it is by means of God's blood that is in HIM... holy spirit... that he teaches and leads those who belong to him.


No one here judges you, dear one, for your choice, dear one. Indeed, I have wished you well on your particular journey. Which is what my Lord has taught and told me to do. And I didn't even have to toss any black and/or white stones to hear that - LOL!



I agree... and have never thought otherwise. Israel is only a small flock, a small part of God's holy nation. They initially were offered the opportunity to be the ONLY nation so chosen... but that changed. Now, people of EVERY nation, tribe, and tongue... including China... whose number cannot be stated by man... have that opportunity.


Please don't take this the wrong way, dear one... but I know how divination... urim/thummin... and casting lots works. I understand ying/yang, good/evil, life/death, go/stop, yes/no, cause/effect, etc. Because I asked about some of this many years ago, as well as was told without asking by my Lord. To that end, I don't think there's anything I NEED to know that I don't at this time. Even so, I believe that if there's anything I don't know... but need to... my Lord will provide it. If that's my belief, then, why "insult" it with looking to other "doors" to access knowledge? Perhaps we will arrive at the very same destination, you and I... but I my current... mmmmmm... "vehicle"... is serving me quite well. It ain't "broke"... so I see no need to "fix" it, at this time. I'm sure you can understand that.


Well, now, see... here's the thing: one, I personally am not seeking prosperity OR influence in society; to the contrary, actually, as such things tend to be a distraction and among the main reasons most DON'T hear when my Lord speaks to them - they are too "busy" pursuing prosperity and influence in society. I AM seeking prosperity... my means of a place in the kingdom of the God... and influence, such that perhaps I can offer up sacrifices (my prayers) and have such heard by the Sovereign of the kingdom, the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies... through His appointed king, my Lord, the Holy One of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah). Two, I already get very appropriate and timely "warnings" to help me avoid "disaster" from my Lord. And he's pretty GOOD, too! When I listen - LOLOLOL!


Enoch is not mysterious to everyone, dear one, but only to some.




I'm sorry, but I'm not sure we're talking about the same "Enoch." You apparently are speaking of Enoch, son of Cain (Genesis 4:17). I mean the Enoch who was born of the line of SETH, Cain's younger brother: Enoch, son of Jared (not Cain) and father of Methuselah (not Irad), great-grandfather of Noah (Lamech). (Genesis 5:3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18-29). While it is true that in some instances only one person portrayed in the writings goes by a certain name (i.e., Noah, David, Adham, Abel, etc.), but some names were given to more than one, which was the case here. Perhaps THIS confusion (between the two Enochs), though, is the source of some of YOUR confusion, dear one, as to what was going on with Cain? I mean, I can see why one would ask, "Well, if Cain was SO bad, how is it his son, Enoch, was favored by God? But you only need to look to Adham and Abel to see the exact same dynamic: Adham disappointed; Abel, his son, did not.



I look forward to it, dear one, although I am curious as to whether this clarification as to Enoch will have any bearing on what you ultimately conclude.

Again, peace to you!

YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

SA

SABASTIOUS SAID



I do not have a lot of time today, but I must address this. The I CHING is NOT, and I repeat, NOT a future telling device. It's a measuring stick of Cause and Effect which relates to ALL living things. Consulting it will always try to correct you into your natural flow (the Will of God). No one, no matter how great or small, is perfectly in union with the Will of God, that's why we discovered Sin within all humans (which starts at the molecular level). The I CHING is NOT concerned with the future, as such CANNOT be predicted in such a personal way without very strong equalizing effects (which are usually extremely negative and not worth it). Fortune telling is wrong and condemned by God. The I CHING used as a "door" as you say, is not it's purpose, just as the Torah is not supposed to be a door. "Things written" are for our benefit, not to fortune tell or set up shop.

-Sab

AGUEST SAID

The I CHING is NOT, and I repeat, NOT a future telling device. It's a measuring stick of Cause and Effect which relates to ALL living things.

My apologies, dear one (again, peace to you!): I did not mean it with regard to, say, prediction... but as to "effect"... which IS future (i.e., after/the result of "cause"). I wasn't trying to say it was, like, Tarot cards, etc. That is yet another "door."


As does consulting my Lord...



Well, there was/is One... but we can agree to disagree on that...



Unfortunately, Israel DIDN'T discover it... which is why it had to be written out for them. I am Israel, dear one, and so at one point needed it spelled out for me. No longer, though...



Okay...



And, yet, our INCLINATION is to use these as such. Can I truly say that I wouldn't be... wait for it... "tempted"? No, I could not. Why even test it, then? Seems foolish, to me (for me - each one must decide for himself/herself what they will/will not do).

But thank you truly for the clarification. Please note that I have NO problem with the I CHING and actually looked to it for some guidance, etc., as a younger person (what "wordly" young person doesn't look into some manner of the eastern thinkings? Look at the whole "Tibet" thing these days! LOLOL! Oh, wait - I live near Berkeley, so it may be more prevalent here than elsewhere in the US - LOL!).

Really, dear Sab... I'm cool. I don't knock the I CHING... OR the Torah. I refer to many scriptures in the Torah when sharing what I do. I just don't believe I NEED either... to see my way on MY "journey". My Lord's voice is enough for ME... to guide me through this world and into the next. I am really quite comfortable with that. But, again, "do" you, dear one... however YOU need to. It will have absolutely no bearing on my love for you.

Again, peace to you... and looking forward to your next post.
_________________
Paz a todos!

Su sirviente, compañera de estudios, y un esclava de Cristo,

SA

SABASTIOUS SAID



Thank you for pointing out that error, as it does change things for the theory. This is a good example of my dyslexia at work, which is why I can't just rely on my own thoughts and conclusions.

So it appears that the two Enoch's represent a dichotomy created by the actions of Cain. Enoch II is the grandsonx5 of Seth, who was the replacement for Abel. I found this information about the subject:



With this information I would need to change the "Fu Xi Enoch" to Enoch II, not Enoch I.

Jude has this to say about him:




This scripture offers insight into WHY Fu Xi (Enoch II) was saved along with his sister in a great flood. It was a judgement from God on his people which included his salvation. Because he was a "preacher of righteousness" just as Noah was referred to in 2 peter 2:5 he was saved.

In regards to saving both Noah and Lot, Peter says:



So, within the Fu Xi theory, the same can be applied to Enoch II in Genesis 5.

This doesn't really change the compassion argument I make for Cain, which involves him being a victim of the natural pull of sibling rivalry.



^ The reasoning as to why Abel chose flocks and Cain chose soil is because they didn't want to do the same thing. They wanted to use their free will to impress their father. One succeeded and the other did not, both were acting youthfully, however. This is a natural tendency of all humans, one that needs to be internally challenged, which is why God said to Cain:



Now lets go back to Jude and read a warning he gives AFTER painting the difference between Cain, Korah and Balaam and Enoch II:



For both Noah and Enoch II (with Fu Xi connection) they lived in a world where adversity plagued their people. They were wise enough to see that change needed to take place. That's why they are referred to as preachers of righteousness because they offered not only warning, but offered solutions to the INTERNAL conflicts that were happening within the populace which was creating their own adversity unbeknownst to them (Matthew 24:39).

In Genesis 6:5 we see the word "rah" again:



This paints a picture of INTERNAL CONFLICT that leads to pure evil and wickedness. Essentially a spoiled society of which needs to be done away with. However Noah was considered "blameless" among his people. This did NOT mean he didn't sin, but was being applied forgiveness based on a "sin curve." 2 Peter 2:5 says that he was trying to help, and that was the reason why God favored him. He saw the adversity that even HE was in and was making effort to change it. He loved his neighbors even though they were evil because he UNDERSTOOD why they were there, because he had the same "disease" so to speak. It's that EFFORT that we put forth that proves our faith.

-Sab

SABASTIOUS SAID


Sorry, I mean no HUMAN. The Son IS in perfect union which is why we have the opportunity to benefit.

-Sab

AGUEST SAID

Peace, chile!
_________________
Paz a todos!

Su sirviente, compañera de estudios, y un esclava de Cristo,

SA

SABASTIOUS SAID


Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:54 am Post subject:
I made a thread discussing the death of the ancient prophets in modern day where I said this:

Q

At first I became very angry at this thought. Their survival would then be the cause of my suffering growing up and everyone's suffering on this forum. For them? Really? But when I really think about it they are victims too because there is suffering in this world and some people just only know one way to deal with it. Just like the father that sends his kid to boarding school and sees it through to the bitter end, if need be. Because he has faith in a system, but what happens when that system passes away or becomes corrupt? Will the father change with the winds or will he stubbornly hold onto tradition at the potential cost of his whole generation becoming soiled? The Watchtower says he won't change, in fact, they bet on it.


A similar line of reasoning could be applied to the choices of my own biological father. In my adult life he has given me no aid even though in many junctures I desperately needed it, not even emotional support. He comes from a hard family of farmers who believe no pain no gain and that love is not something you express visibly. I still resent his choices in the matter to this day, but I do understand it from a biological standpoint. He is trying to help me by allowing me to suffer and learn. From a moral standpoint, however, watching your son suffer is not ALWAYS the best decision as he might just shrivel up and die. To say that it is to take a godly position which will result in failure because we are NOT God (Isaiah 47 : .

In the eastern religions the 8 Trigrams are representative of an eight person family including a father and mother. Here is a table that shows that:



Jude mentions these "natural instincts" that rule most of the world. God told Cain that he was to "rule over them." This seems like part of the ultimate plan of God. Family is a double edged sword. On one hand the bond of love is strongly related to family, but what are the dark sides? To every Yin there is a Yang.

The rivalry between Cain and Abel is apparent because they freely chose starkly differing trades. BOTH, however, had the WRONG intention as BOTH wanted (keyword) their father's approval. This put the father in a precarious situation as THEY made HIM choose by using THEIR free will. Injecting desire into free will effectively neutralizes it. Letting desire affect your choices is like giving your choice to Satan, or the Serpent. I know many people look at Abel as this innocent person, but there's ALWAYS two sides to every story. We are just given Cain's perspective in Genesis 4 because he's a main character that sacrifices his brother for his own values. Just a few scriptures back we had another issue regarding God as a father and his children and rebellion.

Notice what God decreed to the Serpent after the choice was made to deceive Adam and Eve:



This, to me, is showing that God is responsible to use the offspring of "the woman" to crush the head of the Serpent securing victory. This is honoring the SERPENT'S choice which was allowed (free will is a huge theme in Genesis). However the Serpent will strike the offspring's "heel" which is depicting a fall, but an eventual victory despite challenges or DIFFICULTIES. Abel didn't know what was coming because he was youthful and didn't realize that he was contributing to the bitter jealousy of his brother. All parties have a measure of responsibility.

We cannot escape our natural tendencies, we can only "rule over them." This is what God warned Cain to do because he still had a choice to break through the resistance that was holding him back, which was his natural tendency to compete with his brother and seek his father's approval. This story is screaming at humanity to not let our instincts override our morality. When it does we become a Shakespearean Tragedy, because we COULD have chosen otherwise, but we didn't because it was TOO hard for us. God created the Serpent with free will as a DIFFICULTY level which we are to master or falter.

This gives insight into Jesus words recorded in Like 14:




We have to HATE the pull we naturally have towards our family because it's worthless. If an entire family "transcends" then they won't have to break up, but if only a single person transcends the group will break apart, which is BY DESIGN. Genetic family leanings creates codependent relationships, which we have to rule over internally. We all have to be independent of each other so that we can use our God-given free will to CHOOSE each other instead of having genetics do it for us (sin "desires" us).

So basically what I am saying with all of this is that our free will as individuals on this planet is what it's all about. In regards to the Lord's Evening Meal and how often the ritual should be performed, Jesus speaks of personal free will:



So he is saying that whenever YOU chose to do this, do it in remembrance of him and what he accomplished. This to me indicates that the sacraments are not as important as people might think. The remembering of Jesus is the most important aspect so it could be said that any change to the ritual would be acceptable if the original message is safely preserved.

TEC SAID

hat blueletter site is a great site for things like that, Shelby. You showed me it once before, and I forgot it. We also see in the next verse, that He speaks about raining down righteousness, and salvation springing up... and that HE created those.

Peace,
tammy

PSACRAMENTO SAID


Quote:



We have to HATE the pull we naturally have towards our family because it's worthless. If an entire family "transcends" then they won't have to break up, but if only a single person transcends the group will break apart, which is BY DESIGN. Genetic family leanings creates codependent relationships, which we have to rule over internally. We all have to be independent of each other so that we can use our God-given free will to CHOOSE each other instead of having genetics do it for us (sin "desires" us).


Well...
COntext is everything my friend and taking a verse out of context can make us think things that, perhaps, were not intended.
In that passage, Jesus is speaking of the tests that those that follow Him will face/have faced.
For a Jew to make such a statement about direct family goes to show how intense the situation was/would become.
Look at the whole of the dialoge:

25 Now large crowds were going along with Him; and He turned and said to them, 26 “(O)If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple. 27 Whoever does not (P)carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28 For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it? 29 Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him, 30 saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’ 31 Or what king, when he sets out to meet another king in battle, will not first sit down and (Q)consider whether he is strong enough with ten thousand men to encounter the one coming against him with twenty thousand? 32 Or else, while the other is still far away, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace. 33 So then, none of you can be My disciple who (R)does not give up all his own possessions.

34 “Therefore, salt is good; but (S)if even salt has become tasteless, with what will it be seasoned? 35 It is useless either for the soil or for the manure pile; it is thrown out. (T)He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”

What we have here, IMO, is a warning as to what it will mean to be a disciple of Christ and a plea to consider well the cost.
As we see in history, those were prophetic words indeed because persecution did indeed come from family and friends, even before it came from enemies.

I don't think it was a plea to sever ties with family, Jesus himself provided for his mother on his deathbed ( the cross), but it was to help them understand the importance of what was to happen, what they would be going through.

Jesus and His Father share a perfect relational love that can't be described in human terms ( though the trinity doctrine, the correct one, comes a bit close but is not perfect, not by a long shot) and it is this relation that has been so since ever there was "God", that is the perfect union of love.

Love is NOT the denying of anything but the fulfillment of everything.

AGUEST SAID

I have to "second" what dear P stated here, dear Sab (the greatest of love and peace to you, both!). Neither God nor Christ break up families - if there's any such breaking up, it comes from within the family. For the most part, an entire family is granted righteousness on the basis of ONE (think, Noah, Lot, Abraham, Joseph, David... even our dear Lord). As Luke recorded Peter stating:

"The promise is for you and your children... ." Acts 2:39

But there is something even more: the "law" that Christ reiterated that one is to "honor" ones mother and father... the only law that comes with a promise. If one must honor one's mother and father, that "honor" would include offering up prayers for forgiveness for these, too, wouldn't it? In the hopes that such can also be saved? And if such ones didn't personally oppose/deny God/Christ... but did good toward his/her child who belonged to Christ... given that the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, IS merciful... why would He grant one who belongs to Him life... and deny life to their loved ones who did good toward them just because such ones didn't belong to Him? Wouldn't mercy be borne out in giving these life, too, but perhaps as subjects, rather than kings/priests, in the kingdom?

Think Joseph and his brothers: because of THEIR love for HIS father (although perhaps not so much for HIM)... Joseph showed mercy to them in the end.

The WTBTS falsely teaches a similar fate on the basis of the verse you quoted, dear Sab: the ultimate breakup of families. Indeed, they are SO sure of the destiny for some... that they engage in breaking up families NOW. As such, they "judge" things BEFORE their due time.

The Body of Christ is not to be like that, however, but to continue in our HOPE... for ourselves AND our loved ones who did good to us. That, actually, is part of our priestly function: to offer up sacrifices (prayers) on behalf of these. Even for those who did NOT do us good... because our Lord set that example, forgiving those who even showed themselves to be our enemies. If we are to follow in HIS footsteps, then, this is what we should be doing... and never giving up hope.

In the end, it is up to God and Christ, however... and not us or what WE think "should" occur... for ANYONE. And, again, since God is MERCIFUL... our HOPE should always be toward that mercy. For ALL... and particularly those WE love.

I can't really respond to your other post, yet, though - I need to read it over again, as well listen to what my Lord has to say about it, neither of which I've done, yet. But I hope the above helps you understand as to the breaking up of families - to imply something to God/Christ (which you may not be meaning to do, but kinda are)... is to attribute unrighteousness to them. I don't think you mean to do that, though.

Again, peace to you!
_________________
Paz a todos!

Su sirviente, compañera de estudios, y un esclava de Cristo,

SA