xjwsforChrist

Thank you Shelby for sharing this.

I do remember you telling us this vision. The rest, deep sleeping, no knowledge in Sheol, is confirmation that Jah is not a father that would torment nor burn his children or anyone.
They will come back through the resurrection in Revelation 20 ( the second resurrection)
And be judged accordingly in the flesh. And if they are to go to the lake of fire,(as a second death) it is eternal destruction.
Eternal in that they will never live again.

Thanks again
Love to you
Justmom

I thought you said you were EX Jehovah's Witnesses?

I vividly remember a Circuit Overseer sitting on my settee telling me EXACTLY the same understanding, in almost EXACTLY the same words.

Weasel words. Not in any way whatsoever what Jesus taught. "Today you will be with me in Paradise" he said to the thief on the cross.

Clearly, you can take the JW out of the Watchtower but you can't take the WT out of the JW.

Yes Char you are right. We are XJW. Think you do not remember as much as you thought as to the organization and their teachings. The CO would not have said exactly the same thing as JW do not teach that the resurrection to life or judgement is at the end of the 1,000 reign. ( the second resurrection ). They teach Char that it begins immediately after Armageddon which has been around the corner for decades.

As far as to the theif on the cross being in paradise that same day?....I believe I read here from you or PaulS that the RCC doesnt teach that the resurrection ( to paradise) has begun.

Sure it was said!

Somebody needs to get ALL Catholics at least on the same page as to what they believe. Because most dont know what or why they believe what they do, they just do it.

Sound familiar???

Just sharing Char
Justmom

Shelby,
Your visitation/vision has some of the common elements of many of the NDE stories I have read and seen.
The difference being that in some NDE there is a "punishment" for SOME and that, according to the stories, AT TIMES ( and this isn't always the case) communication with the dead BUT it is mentioned that is NOT the norm (typically).
What strikes me at times is when I read the NDE of atheists, athiest that become believers ( typically Christians).
One that got me the most was that of an atheist doctor that had no belief and then had a NDE and became a Christian.

The thing is, what "converts" the atheist (typically) is the over whelming feeling of LOVE in "heaven".
Sure some get converted from the fear of the punishments they see BIUT even they feel that Love that is far greater than ANYTHING they have ever felt before.

The doctrines of purgatory and paradise don't have anything to do with the resurrection.
Purgatory is the "equivalent" of Sheol/Hades and paradise would be where the spirit goes to await the resurrection.

Thank you Paul,

But isn't Purgatory a catholic teaching and that individuals pay large amounts of money to have priests pray them out of this place?? So that they can go to heaven and not burn? Somewhere where I believe unbaptized babies go as well??

And my understanding is that it is Sheol/ Hades is where the spirit goes to await the resurrection. That is what it is mentioned in Revelation 20: 13. ( death and Hades giving up those dead in them) resurrected then they were judged accordingly.

Just a thought
Justmom

Purgatory is the place in "hell" were spirits/souls go that are not quite ready for Heaven.
It's a "limbo" of sorts, where they "sleep" and wait for the resurrection.


and:

Dear Char... peace to you and, again, your misunderstanding of what the WTBTS teaches/JWs believe is manifest, dear one. A CO would not have told you that for two (2) reasons:

1. As dear 'Mom (peace to you!) stated, they believe that (since 1914) those ANOINTED who die are immediately resurrected to heaven;

2. As for EVERYONE else, they believe the SPIRIT dies when the BODY dies. They do NOT believe the spirits are sleeping. They base this on their misunderstanding of the verse that states, "The soul that is sinning, it itself will die." They confuse the soul (body, which does die) with the spirit (which does not die but sleeps awaiting resurrection).

Again, I fear, dear one, that you didn't listen anymore to THEM... than you listen to Christ now. Because you truly do not seem to have a real inkling of what JWs believe/teach... or what Christ taught and teaches. In that light, perhaps you should consider ASKING first, in both instances... rather than making blanket statements and false accusations? Might save you some chagrin.

Again, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama

We need to understand what brings about "doctrine".
Questions are asked about what is no explicit or even what may appear to be contradictory.
They are asked of those in authority and while there ONCE was a time that those in power had enough "faith" and those asking questions had enough faith in them that they could answer with "The HS says...." or "Our Lord says..."
As time went on and that wasn't enough for the population of followers, some that had NO experience with the HS and as time went on that outsiders and rebels from withing point out that "hearing voices" wasn't good enough when the answer to a question would effect 10's of 1000's or more, what did they do?
They organized a council and debated and used the bible to answer these questions as best they could for the multitudes.
Imagine trying to explain the nature of the HS or the nature of original sin or Genesis and the only thing you can use is the bible AND traditions and writings passed down by the Apostles and their disciples and their disciples and so forth.

It is easy for us to "point the holes" and even to say, "Ask Christ", and maybe that is because we don't have the burden of our answer effecting millions of people.

It's easy to pint fingers, I know I do it, but to be honest, I don't envy them their job...

Paul quotes...

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

But doesn't the bible say for "those that are union with Christ, there is no condemnation." Romans 8:1
Wouldn't their spirit/ life go under the altar after being given a white robe, ( cleansed spiritual body) and then told to sleep and await our lords return and resurrection?

And " achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven"... When?
If it is after they are purified supposedly and then go to heaven, what is the purpose or need of a resurrection then?


1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification


So it is a church name.

Quote:
1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.84


Romans 6:23 says " the wages of sin is death" and that ALL sin and fall short of the glory of Jah.

So if the wage for sin is death....and we ALL sin therefore deserve nothing but death....how does one differentiate between " grave sins" and " lesser sins" ? Sin is sin isn't it? All sin, All deserve death!
Only one unforgivable sin isn't there?



Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611


Well, I do not underestimate the power of pray and mercy on Jahs behalf but...Jobs sacrifices of purification were for his children that were LIVING not dead.

" offerings bringing the dead some consolation "..??? In what way? Not sure what you mean.

Just asking. Thank you
Justmom

If I may, dear, dear P (again, peace to you, luv!)... and I mean absolutely NO contention, but just to understand... there are many things here that just don't make sense, not when held up to the Light that is Christ. Let me show you:



A few things don't make sense with this perception:

1. What of those under the altar? Are they in Purgatory, too? If so, that would mean that under the altar, which is in the temple, which is in the spirit realm... is also in "hell"? How can that be?

2. Why would a spirit not be quite ready for heaven??

3. In the account of the Rich Man and Lazarus, Lazarus was in heaven, in the bosom position of Abraham (thus, reclining next to Abraham at our dear Lord's table). The Rich Man, however, was in the "other" place... and Abraham SAID to him:

"... between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ Luke 16:26

How, then, can one go from "hell" TO heaven... WITHOUT resurrection... which has not occurred yet, for ANYONE, other than Christ (Moses and Elijah were not resurrected, by were changed "in an instant")? We KNOW it hasn't occurred for anyone besides Christ because (1) he has returned to trigger the first one, yet; (2) the 1,000 years have not even begun, let alone ended so as to bring in the second one; and (3) at the time of receiving the revelation, John only saw the spirits of those executed for bearing witness to Christ under the altar and such ones were told to rest LONGER... until the number of the rest of their brothers and fellow slaves (who would ALSO be killed) was filled.

I would also like to address the Catechism excerpts you included, as they are most concerning (to me):



Ummmm... were/aren't those who die in God's grace... ALREADY purified... by (1) faith in what Christ told them, AND (2) Christ's BLOOD??

"You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you."

Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. (John 14:6) As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified."

"And so [Jesus] also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood."

What OTHER purification/sanctification/cleansing/holiness would such ones go through?? Was not Christ's blood ENOUGH?? I truly do not understand this teaching.



That "cleansing fire," dear one... is HOLY SPIRIT... the "living water" (life's water)... God's BLOOD... by means of which Christ BAPTIZES those who belong to them... which BAPTISM is what cleanses/purifies/sanctifies them:

"Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. And I myself did not know him, but the One who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with holy spirit.’ I have seen and I testify that this is God’s Chosen One.”

Does it not concern you that the CHURCH not only formulated a doctrine and gave it a name, but based it on their VERY erroneous misunderstanding of what that "cleansing fire" is?? Dear one, they have taken the blood of God, holy spirit, which cleanses those who receive it... via an anointing, which serves as a TOKEN of the ETERNAL life they WILL have... and turned it into something that folks have to endure in order to get out of "HELL"?? That concerns ME, dear one. Greatly. I had NO idea.



There IS. While folks are ALIVE. It is called... baptism with HOLY SPIRIT! Pursuant to an ANOINTING. When one dies, ones sins of the FLESH ("lesser faults") are PAID for. Because death is their PRICE. However, that their sins are paid for doesn't grant them LIFE. It just pays the price. They remain dead. UNLESS... they RECEIVE life... the free gift from God. That "anointing" and cleansing by holy spirit... pursuant to God's MERCY... is what allows them to RECEIVE that gift:



Yes, those sins contained in the Book of Remembrance... for those whose names are written... IN THE LAMB'S BOOK OF LIFE:

"Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:11-15

This is the SECOND resurrection. Those who take part in the FIRST resurrection (those who are on thrones with Christ) are not subject to it, OR to the second death (i.e., resurrection from their FIRST death, only to be thrown into the lake of fire):

"I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about [Jesus] and because of the Word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years." Revelation 20:4-6

"... now there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ [Jesus], because through Christ [Jesus] the law of the spirit which gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death."



Okay, THIS not only concerns me... but frightens me: How can a man, Judas Maccabeus or ANY man... OTHER THAN CHRIST... make ATONEMENT... for the dead?? For ANYONE, dear one?? On what basis? He was a man just like you and me. Even a sinner. Neither HIS blood... NOR his prayers... can ATONE for anyone. ONLY a high priest can offer up sacrifices of atonement, dear P. ONLY a high priest. And there is only ONE High Priest for the Body of Christ:

"The priest who is anointed and ordained to succeed his father as high priest is to make atonement. He is to put on the sacred linen garments and make atonement for the Most Holy Place, for the tent of meeting and the altar, and for the priests and all the members of the community." Leviticus 16:32

"Therefore, since WE have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, [Jesus] the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess." Hebrews 4:14

"For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin." Hebrews 4:15

"Every high priest is selected from among the people and is appointed to represent the people in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness. This is why he has to offer sacrifices for his own sins, as well as for the sins of the people. And no one takes this honor on himself, but he receives it when called by God, just as Aaron was.

In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him,

“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father.”

And he says in another place,

“You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.”[/b]

"During the days of [Jesus’] life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek. Hebrews 5:1-10

Indeed, Chapters 4-9 of the letter to the Hebrews TELLS us about OUR High Priest, dear one!



First... and foremost... JOB'S sons... WERE NOT DEAD, but alive. He offered his sacrifices BEFORE the Adversary killed them. He DID so because at the time of JOB... Christ had yet not COME... and offered up HIS to purify HIS household... HIS Body! Before him, sacrifices were offered up for all MANNER of things... and Job offered them for HIS household. Can we pray for our loved ones? Of course, we can. But our prayers won't, don't... CAN'T "atone" for their sins. ONLY the blood of Christ can do that! As for those who have died, if we didn't pray for them WHILE THEY WERE ALIVE, so that perhaps THEY would come to Christ, receive his blood AND BE CLEANSED... there is nothing we can do for them in that regard AFTER they have died. Because they are NO LONGER SINNING. One does sin in DEATH... but in LIFE.



No, it does not. There are two KINDS of sin, that which is committed with the flesh... and that which is committed with the SPIRIT... but they BOTH have destruction as an ultimate consequence! The only thing that can SAVE one from such consequence is... the blood of the Lamb/being written in his Book (of Life). There is NO other way, for as Christ said:

"I... am the Way... and the Truth... and... the LIFE. NO ONE comes to the Father, EXCEPT THROUGH ME."



Oh, dear... no, no, no. There are only two RANKS of sin, dear one: blasphemy against holy spirit/the Holy Spirit, for which there is no forgiveness... and ALL other sin, for which there IS forgiveness. That is it, dear one. ALL other sin, save blasphemy, can be forgiven. Whether murder, adultery, idolatry, you name it:

"... thieves, greedy, drunkards, slanderers, swindlers will [not] inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord [Jesus] Christ and by the spirit of our God."



I don't even know what that means (and I don't think anyone else here does, either) but it sounds like an excuse to judge, to ME.

Dear P, I don't know WHAT you have your faith in, dear, dear brother... but please: review these teachings and doctrines, just those here... and show me, please... how they are rooted in Christ, how they hold up to HIM... or EVEN the Bible. Because I do not see it, dear one. Not at ALL.

I had NO idea that this is what the Catholic faith teaches/believes, truly. I promise not to set out to challenge them, but I WILL pray for those who are "lost" in them. I mean, I had NO idea... and if I had ANY concern before, I REALLY have some, now.

Please, dear one... examine these things more closely... and more carefully. And, of COURSE... ASK as to their truthfulness and validity. I think you're gonna be surprised what you hear... if you truly listen.

Again and as always, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama

I don't think Paul's faith is in those teachings... I think only that he was trying to highlight what the RCC does teach.

I hear all that Shelby and JM have shared on those teachings.

The one that makes me cringe the most is the one that says even those who die in union with God, might still have some sins that need cleansing, and so are sent to purgatory to be purified.

There is NO understanding here of the baptism of fire, that is the baptism by the spirit that john speaks of also. "I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

We don't have union with Christ... and then STILL have to do some sort of penance/purification. Christ purifies us by HIS blood. (the spirit)

Peace,
tammy

OH!!

My SINCERE apologies, dear, dear P (and peace to you!), if that's the case. I WAS confused... as I stated at the start. If you DON'T believe in those teachings then... well, whew! If you do ('cause I'm not sure - I didn't get that they were solely RCC but "catholic" in nature), then all I can ask is that you examine them closely.

But if you don't, I SINCERELY apologize for misunderstanding!

Peace to you, dear brother... and thank YOU, dear tec (peace!) for clarifying!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama

But followers of WHOM, dear P (peace to you, luv!)? I think that's question to be considered. Because if they were followers of CHRIST, then they would heed his words, yes, to "Come to me!" and "My sheep listen to my voice"...

AND...

"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

“Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give holy spirit to those who ask him!”



Then we can only assume they didn't... because they didn't ASK for it. Yes? And so that left them vulnerable... to wolves. Yes?



Yeah, but who were they? Who died and left THEM in charge? Those 10's of 1,000's or more HAD a shepherd... or DID they?



No, dear one. They organized a council and debated and MISused the Bible... WITHOUT Christ... and so NOT to answer questions as best they could but as they were WARNED... "to misLEAD... IF possible... EVEN the chosen ones."



I can imagine it. I do it. So can you and anyone else who HAS that spirit!



But was NOT all that could be used, nor all that can be used NOW. True, some try to SAY that and some have made the "LAW"... and, as you stated above, "outsiders and rebels from within". But... so what? What was that supposed to mean to the Body? Were THEY supposed to be the kind to "shrink back"? Nope. But... they did and in doing so ALLOWED those outsiders and rebels to take over. To what end, though? Now, folks don't even know what a REAL christian is. The outsiders and rebels are considered authentic while the TRUE seed are considered non-existent... or of no consequence within the Body. Imposters have taken over, seating THEMSELVES in the seat of Moses... prophesying falsehood... and once AGAIN trying to heal the breakdown of GODs people... by saying "There is PEACE!"... when there is NO peace! Among THEIR flocks, maybe, but not among God's people.

Why? Because when one steps UP and PROFESSES to BE one of God's people... NOT by MAN's designation and/or acceptance... but by CHRIST's designation... and JAH's acceptance... by means of holy spirit... oh... no. Nope. No. Uh-uh. CAN'T be. USED to be... but no, not any more.

And so what choice IS there? This melarkey. IF, however, God's people stood UP... became SPIRITUALLY "resurrected"... by means of holy spirit... and followed HIS Christ... and ONLY that one... what power would these imposters HAVE? None. But, as Jeremiah said, these imposters have power over JAH's people... because the PEOPLE love it.



Which is weightier, though, dear one? The effect of our answer on a million people? Or... blasphemy against holy spirit/the Holy Spirit... in an answer affecting just one? Is not the latter actually WORSE... and so even weightier??

It's easy to pint fingers, I know I do it, but to be honest, I don't envy them their job...

I totally understand. But, it's not like they get PAID to do it... right? In which case, they don't HAVE to do it, but do it voluntarily... right? And are doing what they WANT to do... yes? So, no reason to feel BAD for them, either? Yes?

Dear P... I can't wait. When the lights go FULLY on for you, dear, dear brother... this world better watch out. I can't imaging that a little ol' internet site like this could contain you, truly! LOLOLOLOL! Your vast love alone would make it almost impossible. Not enough folks here to receive it all, dear one!

Peace to you, my dear brother... and may YOU been given ears... or have the ones you have opened... so as to hear when the Spirit and the Bride say to YOU:

"COME, dear brother P! And TAKE 'life's water'... FREE!"

Listen for it, dear P. Listen... and you'll hear it, if you truly wish to.

YOUR servant, sister, and fellow slave of Christ,

Shel

No Shel, Tammy is right, I don't believe in those things and I was just pointing out the doctrines and how they are spelled out in the catechism.
I don't discuss doctrines without stating what they are off the bat.

Over the years I have seen/read your messages Shelby, the love you put into them and the passion you have for Our Lord, THE Lord.
I have also seen how many have turned away from HOW you put it out and it bothered me so much because I didn't get it.
Your message was so simple and loving - ASK CHRIST yourself
So why didn't they? why were they so turned off?

I came to realize that people that are/have been part of organized religion need "more" than "a voice" ( as they see it) for assurance in what to believe.
Even Christ did miracles and feats and said, "if you don't believe my words, believe my deeds".
People don't trust themselves and they most surely don't trust anyone that "hears a voice" with much of anything, much less so with their salvation.

This is what I try to argue doctrines WITH doctrine and bible WITH bible because people need "tangible", they need "Here, see it is written here and it means this..."
Come now, most here were JW's and you KNOW that is how they "get people".

Sucks, but that is the way things are.

We should be able to exemplify our life in Christ with how we live and we should be able to defend and give account of our faith with words when we need to and be able to do so in a way that brings people closer to Christ and not push them away.