xjwsforChrist

I am a little taken aback by all of this. I'm not sure I'm happy to know it (because I have always stated I'd prefer cremation for myself so I don't burden my family with an expensive burial) or sad that one of my relatives was cremated and I will never have the chance to see that person again.

This begs the question: what about those killed by atomic weapons who were simply vaporized with nothing at all being left, not even ashes, or in the case of children, baby teeth? Or what about those killed by a volcano, such as those in Pompeii with Mt. Vesuvias. Not sure anything is left of DNA there, probably not even baby teeth (maybe, but hard to say.)


Good question: Christ said "all things are possible with God".


I can think of a few examples that didn't involve fire:
- The flood.
- Korah, Dathan and Abiram and their families were not destroyed by fire, but the earth opened up and swallowed them. In that case, fire destroyed the 250 men who were with them, but not those three and their families.
- With the golden calf, the disobedient ones were killed by the sword.
- A pestilence killed 70,000 for David taking a census.

*points to the link with my paws*

_________________
To fear me is to love me....

Oh, I agree with the Pup here. I have family and loved ones that have been cremated also, and I am not worrying about them.

If there are provisions, then again, God knows them. I am still listening and asking on this.

None who belong to them will be lost though, nor those who are of their house, because the Spirit of Christ is the blood of the lamb... that protected the whole house of the Israelites who put it on their doors.

Peace,
tammy

: )

Missed the original posting.

I guess my take is that I cannot worry about what I cannot control, nor is my place to attempt to control.

Well, if nothing else, at least we might be able to keep the discussion going (peace to you, ALL!)...



I don't think that's the case at all, dear Zoe (peace to you!). Indeed, I shared:



And...



Faith... is the ASSURED EXPECTATION of the thing HOPED for, dear ones! I once posted as to whether it would be TRULY loving for JAH to have US living... WITHOUT those WE love. Would it be?

It was NOT my point to say all those who were burned/cremated would NOT be resurrected, not at ALL, and I SINCERELY apologize if some somehow "read" that. The POINT was twofold: first, to share the TRUTH as to what burning/cremation DOES. To help any who WISHED to to see the TRUTH about it. Now, if some wish to continue and do so personally, that is THEIR decision, yes? But they can't say no one told them what the results of such were/are. I only tried to do that. I did know that it wouldn't be well-received by some... but I never said that EVERYONE whose body was subject to burning/cremation would not be resurrected. Again, dear tec (peace!) shared with us HOW such ones COULD be.

I HATE to use this term (because any term used by the WTBTS gives me pause)... but the point was, secondly, that perhaps we shouldn't [try to] FIND FAULT with JAH for the outcome when His warnings are not heeded... but pay attention when warnings are given. Because we don't always know the LONG-TERM results of our choices. And we shouldn't find fault with HIM... when others have falsified, overlooked, ignored those warnings... and/or taught US to overlook/ignore them.

Dear, dear Zoe... you "felt" it was wrong... because you were being TOLD it was! You just weren't told (by those who should have told you!)... what you were "hearing." THAT you were indeed hearing. Had you been, you might have LISTENED. So the error is not yours; you were misled... by those who TOOK THE RESPONSIBILITY (by seating themselves in the seat of Moses)... and so SHOULD have told you. They couldn't, though, because THEY don't know.

Again, each one must decide for himself/herself what they must do, dear ones... as to this and ALL things. But please don't take what I shared to even SUGGEST that everyone who was burned/cremated would... could... NOT be resurrected. Because I didn't, truly. I only shared the truth ABOUT what such does... which I didn't make up; science supports it.

But I would like to ask those of you who may have taken issue with what I shared, if you did and if you will kindly permit me:

1. What do you think "resurrection" means... and is? What is your basis?

2. What do you think will BE resurrected, if anything? What is your basis?

3. IF there is to be a resurrection of the BODY... yet, even the DNA is destroyed when a body is burned... what do you think will BE "resurrected"? From what will it come?

4. Even to clone, one must have some DNA to work with, yes? If one is cloned from the DNA in another... is that "resurrection"? And "who" is cloned? The donor... or "someone" else? While science is working on cloning a wooly mammoth, it would STILL be a clone of the mammoth the DNA was taken FROM, yes... and not some ancestral mammoth? So, if DNA was taken from, say, dear Anne (peace to you!), as she suggested, the result would STILL be a clone of HER (or her sibling(s)) yes... and not an entirely different individual. Yes? Even if they took DNA from EVERY sibling... wouldn't the resultant "person" be a clone individual of her and/or her siblings... but NOT her father? Because in order for it to be HIM, they would need HIS DNA? Exactly his? Including the parts now missing from dear Anne's/her siblings DNA?

I am NOT trying to contend, dear ones. I am trying to understand why you might think that what I shared is... "wrong," if you do think that. Or why it's "bad".

What is most... saddening... for me... is that, right now, science denies resurrection. Cloning from old DNA, yes, but a new "entity," not the original. The MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies... and His Son, the HOLY ONE of Israel and Holy Spirit... PROMISE resurrection. And so perhaps we should consider PROTECTING that which is to BE resurrected.

Perhaps not. Again, each one must decide for himself/herself. I just put the truth about it out there. I did know, though, that it would... mmmmmmm... disturb/concern some. I apologize for that, truly, the "disturbing", but not for sharing the truth. I am sorry, dear ones, but I can't apologize for that. I hope you (can) understand.

Again, peace to you ALL!

A slave of Christ,

Shellama

Honestly, all I know about the resurrection comes from WTS, and what they know is essentially what amounts to speculation, and perhaps wishful thinking. I don't take offense at what you spoke. I only seek to understand more fully. I certainly can't control what resurrection is or how Christ will do it.


Literally, rising again, standing again, based on my understanding of anastasis, the Greek word for resurrection. To me, this means the person will be alive again, with their memories intact, but a new fleshly body that resembles their original body (save for any dismemberment, diseases of the flesh, etc.) I have no basis other than what I read in the Bible, what I've been taught by WTS and my own imagination of what it means.


The person (personality / character, memories), but in a new body. It must be a new body because the old one is decayed or gone completely. I have no basis other than what I read in the Bible, what I've been taught by WTS and my own imagination of what i means.


Again, a new body, with a person's personality, traits, memories intact. We return to dust, thus once we die, I've always believed our original bodies were simply vessels that would be discarded. Our spirit goes to God (which WTS teaches this to mean that God remembers our makeup... however, I think "spirit" is something WTS doesn't recognize, but I don't know what it is.) God can make us from dust, or from his own memory. In my feeble mind, why would he need some of the original template to reproduce it? He's God, after all.


Cloning is something man does. I've always imagined resurrection to be something much, much greater than cloning. I've never equated the two.

If our DNA is used, then does that mean those who have died would be resurrected with all their imperfect traits, e.g. those with a cleft palate would still have a cleft palate? Those with terrific deformities would still have them? Those with down syndrome would still have down syndrome? All this is in the DNA.

If our DNA is used, then does that mean those who have died would be resurrected with all their imperfect traits, e.g. those with a cleft palate would still have a cleft palate? Those with terrific deformities would still have them? Those with down syndrome would still have down syndrome? All this is in the DNA.

I wondered if someone might raise these questions, and I asked about it earlier and I was reminded of this scripture in Rev 22:

1 Then he showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb
2 through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

We have to remember that Christ was able to heal the sick even before He was glorified, why wouldn't He show the same kindness in the future. We can leave so many things in His hands, and that of His father, knowing that they love us as they do helps us to simply trust in their care. Christ has been given all authority and we know that He'll use it to express that care of all who put faith in Him.

Loz x

_________________
"This is my son. LISTEN to Him!"

It IS, dear LQ (peace to you!)!!



Whew! Thank you and I am glad that I didn't offend YOU (and hopefully no one else, either, at least not to the point of not wishing to continue, if there is still a need)!!



Are you sure, dear one? That ALL of us returns to the dust? Let me ask you: save burning/pulverizing... what happens to the bones and teeth? Do those also return to the dust? Or is it just the sinews, muscles, organs, etc.?



What if the DNA is... "corrected"... dear one... so that those things in it that cause such... are REMOVED? The DNA is "healed"? Dear Lazarus died and was resurrected by my Lord... BUT... he died AGAIN. Why? What if the DNA can be taken BACK... to what it WOULD have been minus the things that cause death... IN it? Isn't that what SCIENCE is seeking to do? What if there IS a means to do it... but doesn't require all of the (forgive me, I mean no offense)... "primitive" tools, methods, and processes WE are currently looking into?

We have a couple/few accounts to help us understand what "is" resurrected. For example, from Paul as to those who belong to Christ, it is the person's life force that is resurrected to a SPIRIT body ("it is down in corruption; raised up in INcorruption"). At the same time as those who belonged to him but have not died are CHANGED to such a body. But that spirit body is not a zephyr - it has substance. Just not the "kind" of substance of THIS world. As such, it is not BOUND... by the laws of the physical realm... and so it can put on and put off flesh (of THIS world). "Go in AND out"...

As to those who do NOT belong to Christ (and by "belong" I mean have a union with him and so are part of his Body), we have at least two accounts to help us: John's revelation, where he sees:

... "the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:12-15

Now, John didn't see JUST the SPIRIT of those who'd died be given up by the sea, death, and Hades; he saw them raised IN BODIES. How do we KNOW? Because of what Christ said OCCURS in the "lake of fire":

"Do not fear him that can kill the BODY, but be in fear of Him that can destroy the BODY AND SPIRIT (life force) in Gehenna." Matthew 10:28

We can also look to Ezekiel for what the second resurrection, the one for those who DON'T belong to Christ... and which Israel INITIALLY looked forward to (and most still do) will be like:

"The hand of JaHVeH was on me, and he brought me out by the spirit ("ruwach") of JahVeh and set me in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones. He led me back and forth among them, and I saw a great many bones on the floor of the valley, bones that were very dry. He asked me, “Son of man, can these bones live?”

"I said, “Sovereign JaHVeH, you alone know.”

Then he said to me, “Prophesy to these bones and say to them, ‘Dry bones, hear the word of JaHVeH! This is what the Sovereign JaHVeH says to these bones: I will make breath enter you, and you will come to life. I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am JaHVeH.’”

THIS, dear ones... is the second resurrection and the resurrection that Israel looked forward to: where JaHVeH does for Israel what He did with Adham: put HIS breath into the body of bones that He caused to be covered with tendons and skin... so that Adham came to be a LIVING soul (body). Sadly, he was later given ANOTHER skin (a "long garment" of such), which skin served to bind him IN that body.

Ezekiel goes on:

"So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them."

So bodies... but not LIVING bodies. Because they were not (yet) BREATHING bodies. Hence, they were dead bodies... dead souls... because they had not YET... come TO life. Because there was no LIFE... IN them.

"Then he said to me, “Prophesy to the breath ("ruwach"); prophesy, son of man, and say to it, ‘This is what the Sovereign JaHVeH says: Come, breath (or wind or spirit - "ruwach"), from the four winds and breathe into these slain, that they may live.’” I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet—a vast army.

"Then he said to me: “Son of man, these bones are the people of Israel. They say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.’"

"Cut off"... from what? From the Tree of Life... the One who IS the Life... Christ!

"Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign JaHVeH says: My people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. Then you, my people, will know that I am JaHVeH, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. I will put my spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I JaHVeH have spoken, and I have done it, declares JaHVeH.’"

Ezekiel 37:1-14

Also, I can't seem to find it but I think someone asked as to those "destroyed" in the Flood. But where they truly DESTROYED? Or just killed? If destroyed, then to whom did Christ speak/preach to when he visited the world of the dead? When he WENT to Sheol/Hades... for parts of 3 days... and preached to the spirits there? WHOSE spirits? And where do we get that the bodies AND spirits of those who experienced the Flood were destroyed? Christ said that THAT kind of thing, destruction of the body AND spirit... occurs in "Gehenna." Gehenna is a (lake of) fire... not a deluge of water.

Again, I did not wish to offend ANYONE, so I hope I have clarified what the intent WAS. If not, I ask that you grant me opportunity TO clarify, if possible. But please don't think that I believe that there is utterly NO hope for one who has been burned/cremated. Again, dear tec (peace, luv!) shared with us a WONDERFUL basis to help us KEEP hope for such ones!

Peace to you, ALL!

Your servant and a slave of Christ,

Shellama

EXACTLY, dear Loz (peace to you and thank you for that)!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama

Yes Loz...

Wonderful promise.

It's all taken care of.

Thank everyone
Love Justmom

Seconded, Loz! (or fourth'd, I guess, is more accurate!)


Peace,
tammy

I am not offended at all, why would or any of us be. This is a conversation and exchange of information and ideas, I appreciate your input Shelby and that of all the others. I stated my reasons for thinking that fire destroying DNA would not mean there is no chance of resurrection. I didn't state it as fact or because I was arguing with your version.
We really do not know but logical thinking and if you believe in JAH and Christ and their motives and purposes then we just need to leave it in their hands and believe they will do what is right.

I still think resurrection does not require a body, blood or DNA, it requires your spirit, soul and or personality. We would need a new body if we died as our old one is rotted and no good anymore.

Whew! I AM glad to know I didn't offend you, dear Zoe (peace to you!); however, I did know before I posted that someone MIGHT be. And that's okay because, again, it wasn't my intent TO offend but to just share the truth.



I understand how you can think that. Consider this, though, dear one: even JAH has a body. While His body is not like OURS... physical mass... it is still a "house"... or vessel... or even a temple, if you will... in which His spirit DWELLS. It is it not just wispy air "floating" around. For now, SOME of the spirit resides in US... though Christ (some of whose spirit ALSO resides in some of us).

That they zephyrs and mere wisps of air (disembodied "ghosts", if you will) is something made up by man. They HAVE bodies (i.e., eyes, ears, arms, legs, hands, feet, mouths, etc.)... just not bodies like OURS. Theirs' are celestrial (spirit substance) while ours are terrestrial (physical substance).

And so when a spirit/personality/life force IS resurrected, it must be put IN a "house"/vessel/container... body. As I shared, those who take part in the FIRST resurrection receive spirit bodies (like the angels/spirit beings) while those who have not died are changed to such.

But that is the first resurrection. What of those of the second resurrection? If they, too, were resurrected TO spirit bodies, what is the POINT of the Judgment? They have already been given life, yes? Because they now have INcorruptible bodies; bodies that CANNOT die again (and so, won't see the second death... or lake of fire). If, though, there are those who resurrected to judgment, for which they are destroyed, BODY AND SPIRIT, in the lake of fire, they would have to be resurrected TO a body that CAN be so destroyed, yes?

I realize that this is perhaps a distasteful subject, but we don't end up in ALL truth if we avoid SOME of the truth, yes?

We would need a new body if we died as our old one is rotted and no good anymore.

But that is the point: they ARE new bodies, since the former ones have returned to the dust; however, they are MADE from fragments OF our old bodies. Let me ask you... and I realize that this might be a sensitive question but please know I mean no offense or nothing untoward by it:

IF you could have YOUR body... but in PERFECTION... without any of its quirks, illnesses, pains, etc., would you not want YOUR body? Would not feel most comfortable in YOUR "skin"... than in, say, someone else's... or another body that you did not know? Please know I mean your body... without ANY of the challenges it has had to face.

Because that is what was promised to Israel. Do you recall the verse about how the skin would return to as in its YOUTH? Why promise that to Israel if they were just going to be given NEW bodies?? A new body doesn't require anything to RETURN to anything... yes?

I do understand how this topic can provoke a great amount of consideration... and concern. It should. It's a serious matter. And, as with many serious matters, sometimes difficult to grasp at first. But we don't have to try and understand it on our own. We can look to what science is trying to accomplish - restoration of the CURRENT body, not the creation of entirely new ones. And... we can look to and ask Christ. You can, too. Just keep asking, luv. Don't tire out and don't give up. Even if you get a little angry and frustrated. That's okay. That's understandable. Just don't give up. Put it away for awhile if you need to. Even forever because, again, there is nothing to worry ABOUT.

But I've never lied to you about anything I've received, dear one... or from whom... and I haven't started now.

I hope this helps, dear, dear Zoe, truly.

YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

Shellama

Thank you Shelby for your thoughtful comments.
I will never be angry because you or another disagrees or has another opinion, I am not like that lol.

I see a lot of what you say to have a lot of truth and possibility. This particular point about the fire and blood and resurrection I am not in total agreement with, but my opinion is mine and I totally respect yours.