xjwsforChrist

Unfortunately, I think you may have succumbed to the wrong transliteration of verse 16, dear P (peace to you!). The word Greek word that denotes "by" here, en, is more accurately transliterated "in." Which would render the verse ACCURATELY to say:

15 [w]He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For IN Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him."

Which is correct: IN my Lord, THROUGH him... and FOR him... all things were created. How so? He is the "mother dough" used TO create, with JAH being the "Baker." He is the Tree "of Life"; however, JAH it was that PLANTED that "tree," dear one. Most Bibles, including the NIV, actually DO render it accurately. The KJV/NKJV does not. Surprise.





Oooh, no, dear one. Paul knew my Lord had the same SUBSTANCE and NATURE of God... just as YOUR dear girls have the same FORM (body)... and SUBSTANCE (flesh with its blood)... and NATURE (physical)... as YOU. But that doesn't make them YOU. Paul actually states that my Lord "did not regard EQUALITY WITH GOD AS A THING TO BE GRASPED."

What did he mean by that? That ALTHOUGH of the same substance and nature, yes... as with ALL spirit beings... my Lord did not regard being EQUAL with God as something for HIM to pursue, take... grasp. Why did he say this about Christ? Because there are two spirit beings who DO believe it within their grasp: Death... and HIS chief agent, our Adversary, the one called "Satan" and "Devil." BOTH of these believe they CAN grasp equality with God, the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies. And both are eagerly pursuing it! That is the very reason that Satan, once loosed from the abyss... goes out TO mislead Gog and Magog: to come AGAINST the beloved "holy city", New Jerusalem.

Why?? Because in HER midst... is the Tree... of LIFE. In HER, the BODY of Christ... IS Christ, the Life. And if he and they can get "inside" and EAT from that Tree... or its "branches", then, as JAH said of Adham/Eve:

"... take fruit from the Tree of Life and eat... AND LIVE FOREVER..."

Christ, though, took DIFFERENT route to his exaltation: rather than EXALT himself... rather than TAKE what had not been GIVEN him... he did the Father's WILL... and a SLAVE'S form, EMPTIED himself... and gave himself to save the REST of the seed. And in RETURN... he WAS exalted... BY the Father... and not by HIMSELF. To a position over EVERY other name, EXCEPT JAH'S (the MOST Holy One).

He HUMBLED himself, dear one... and because of this JAH deemed him WORTHY... of BEING exalted. He, being lowly in heart, did what he told US to do:

"When he noticed how the guests picked the places of honor at the table, he told them this parable: 'When someone invites you to a wedding feast, do not take the place of honor,, for a person more distinguished than you may have been invited. If so, the host who invited both of you will come and say to you, ‘Give this person your seat.’ Then, humiliated, you will have to take the least important place. But when you are invited, take the lowest place, so that when your host comes, he will say to you, ‘Friend, move up to a better place.’ Then you will be honored in the presence of all the other guests. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.” Luke 14:7-11

He said this to US... because this is what HE learned... from the FATHER. And HE did "just so." So that when the time came to see who was WORTHY to open the scrolls... ONLY he was! Why? Because he had EMPTIED himself... his SPIRIT... from the spirit vessel it was first IN... and allowed it to be POURED... into a SLAVE'S vessel - the body of flesh with ITS blood. Hence, John shares with us:

"5 Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. 2 And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” 3 But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. 4 I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5 Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”

6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth.”

11 Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12 In a loud voice they were saying:

“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!”

13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:

“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”

14 The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped."

Revelation 5"5-13

You might notice that:

1. The Lamb, who was deemed worthy... went and TOOK the scroll FROM the hand of the "one" seated on the throne; and

2. As shown in the "saying" of verse 13... there is only the "one" who its on the throne (JAH, the MOST Holy One of Israel)... and the LAMB (Christ, the HOLY One of Israel). So... two.

There was no "third" person, however, deemed "worthy," no "third" person on, standing near, or before a throne... no "third" person who gave up a scroll... no "third" person who TOOK a scrolll... no "third" person depicted or even MENTIONED... let alone to be given praise, honor, glory... or power. There WERE four living creatures... and 24 elders... yes... but THESE were the ones singing... not the ones receiving the scroll, taking the scroll, giving the scroll... or being praised, honored, glorified... or given power.

So, where is that dang "third" person???

There is no "third" person, dear one. Only two... and yes, they are in union with one another. That union, however, does not "create" a third person/entity. So, there is ONLY the Father... and the Son... which who are one, in spirit, substance, nature, and thus love and truth... but againa, as with your own children... are not the same individual persons.

I hope this helps!

Again, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama

Right PSac, I do know that, but still I'm making the point. To me, one person cannot be three and yet just one. Sorry if it isn't ok with you.

Loz x

_________________
"This is my son. LISTEN to Him!"

I don't get that dear P is saying your understanding isn't "okay" with him, dear Loz (peace to you, both!), but that he's just clarifying in case someone mistook what you meant (I didn't, but someone might have - happens with ALL of us, yes?).

This is, of course, not only a "touchy" topic sometimes but an important one (as we can see by the passion!) and so we should ALL want to be as clear as possible. Sometimes that means others might chime in to make something a bit more clear, but we all should be receptive to that, methinks!

Although perhaps a bit taxing, due to the length, back-and-forth, and passion, we are having a GREAT discussion, IMHO - LOLOLOL!

So, let's carry on, chikkens... and peace to you ALL!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama

And that's why it's called a mystery. There are a few who can't, or won't get their head round it.

Well, thankfully we haven't all got TWO degrees in theology. Lol. I'd rather have an ability to understand and appreciate Christ, but hey, I'm just a servant who loves Him, and hears Him as He speaks to me. Might not be enough for some though.....

Loz x

_________________
"This is my son. LISTEN to Him!"

Wait, so it IS a mystery, dear Char (peace to you!)???

I find that interesting, given recent discussions and debates here... including the topic of the thread... in light of the some of the definitions of the word "mystery". For instance, per Merriam-Webster's:



But, now, wait... revelation is a no-no... yes? Yet, you appear to "fully" understand this particular mystery. How is that? By revelation? If so, how did you receive the revelation... and from whom? If not... how is it you understand this mystery?

Maybe it's this definition:



Yet, you claim to understand it.

Well, no wonder it's confusing: first, there's no resolution to the mystery as to whether it actually IS a mystery... or not. Second, if it IS a mystery... how can ANYONE understand it... let alone KNOW it... I mean, isn't that what a mystery IS?? No one "knows"?? Wait, though, except by revelation? But if no one receives revelations... or can't tell of it... or trust it....

Hmmmmmm. I'm tell you, folks, for this very reason, the whole tenet sounds "mysterious" (as in contrived "hocus-pocus" to keep folks THINKING it's true, when it's really not...) to ME.

For that reason methinks I'll stick with Christ... as HE doesn't deal in mysteries... but in TRUTH... which he shares "plainly." Sure, he shared some initially covert parables from time to time, but he also explained them when asked. Even so, he said his spirit would lead us into ALL truth, so... I'm not seeing where we can mysteries... AND truth. The two are in opposition to one another. You know, like Christ... and Beli'Jah'El?

Things that (should) make us go "hmmmmm..."

Peace!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama

I had decided not to bother with the ding dong of words with someone who has difficulty distinguishing between a Biblical and an historical character, and who thinks Saint Patrick used a shamrock to prove, rather than to illustrate the Trinity.

But it leaves a wrong impression. So, to explain the difference between a divine mystery and an everyday puzzle, it's worth a few lines on the nature of mystery as pertaining to the divine.

We can distinguish between two classes of supernatural mysteries: the absolute, and the relative. An absolute mystery is a truth whose existence or possibility could not be discovered by a creature, and whose essence (inner substantial being) can be expressed by the finite mind only in terms of analogy, e.g., the Trinity...( hence the shamrock, merely an analogy, though "some", to use the customary lingo here, have found an analogy hard to distinguish from a proof. We understand.)

A relative mystery is a truth whose innermost nature alone (e.g., many of the Divine attributes), or whose existence alone (e.g., the positive ceremonial precepts of the Old Law), exceeds the natural knowing power of the creature....us.

Oh, so JE's and those imprinted by them think we can know God in the sense that we can fully understand the Almighty Creator of all that is? Endearing, but, you know, improbable.

I do hope that will help.

Morning, dear Char and peace to you! What of the FOUR-leafed shamrock? What dear St. Patrick (or someone else) use THAT to show? I mean, they're more rare than the 3-leafed version, but they ARE out there:







Not tryin' to twist yer chonies for you, girl - just trying to help you (maybe) see that just because some guy used a tiny plant as a metaphore doesn't mean the metaphore was accurate. No, you really need to show where, say, an APOSTLES... or at least someone of that time... showed the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies, to be part of a trinity.

Now, I've shown YOU where one MIGHT be able to say He is part of a BI-unity (although I wouldn't put a label on it - why? No need, IMHO...), but SO far all you've been able to provide is that "it's a mystery." Well, YEAH... of COURSE it is, dear one! Why in the world would something this is NOT true... but some folks want a whole bunch of other folks to believe... NOT by styled a "mystery"? Helps make sure those who WANT such others to believe it... don't really HAVE to explain... or concretely corroborate it!

C'mon, now, dear Char... I KNOW you're a very bright woman. MUCH more than me (I promise you, I am NOT lying to you when I say I don't know the things I share with you, but that such are GIVEN to me... and by One MUCH, MUCH brighter than me... AND you. Literally. S'why he's called the "Light", my dear!).

THINK, dear Char: Christ said he TELLS his friends what he does. WHY, then, DIDN'T he tell his disciples way back when? Why didn't he say, "The Father, the Holy Spirit, and I... are one!"? No, he SAID, "The FATHER and I... are one!" Yes? Even so, he said the spirit that would come would lead his disciples into ALL truth? Why, then, wasn't John given this "truth" when he was given the Revelation?? WHY would Christ even have such a "mystery" among HIS people... when the POINT of the Revelation was to UNVEIL any outstanding mysteries????? (That's why it's CALLED "A Revelation", dear one!).

Think, dear Char... THINK, girl! And STOP blindly following something others have told you virtually "inexplicable." The HOLY One of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah)... doesn't play those kinds of games with his people, dear one. Anyone seeking HIM... WILL be found... and will find him. He doesn't hide... and he ain't part of no "mystery."

You can do this, dear one. You can. You just have to step back and evaluate where your TRUE loyalties are, who and what you TRULY have your faith it. That can be hard to do, yes... and painful. But it CAN be done. I know. Because I've done it. You can do it, too. If you TRULY wish to know the TRUTH... and can allow yourself to stop walking... by sight.

Again, peace to you, truly!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama

One of the hardest things for ex-jw's to grasp is that God isn't the name of The Father.
The tend to see it as God= The Father so for Christ to be God that means He is The Father.
God is a title, not the name.
It is a description of the Supreme Being.
There is only ONE God, ONE unique being that can be viewed as God.
That being is pure spiritual energy and can be anything it wants to be.
To actually suggest that God CAN'T be a Triune being is to say that God CAN'T be/do something that is actually possible to be.

The Trinity says that God is an immaterial force that is Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent and that this being is a perfect "other-centred loving" being.

Most would agree with that statement ( if not the term terms).

The issue here it seems is that IF Christ is THE HS, then the Trinity can't be correct since it says that there are 3 "persons" in the Trinity, yes?

Three SEPARATE and DISTINCT "persons", albeit unified in one God, yes, dear P (good day and peace to you, dear one!). Because that IS the teaching, at least per the research (and what some others offer). Who, though, is this third "person" and from where did "he" hail? No one seems to know. And so, it's not REALLY the Father or the SON that is the mystery... or THEIR union; it is this third "person." What, though, is "his" NAME? The Father has a name. The Son has a name. And CALLING on those name(s) is important. As, apparently, is baptism ("Baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"). What, then, is the NAME of the third "person" that we should ALSO be calling on... and baptizing in... if the teaching is TRUE?

But what did John the Baptizer SAY about that:

"There is one coming after me whose sandals I am unfit to untie. I baptize you... in WATER... but HE WILL BAPTIZE YOU... in fire and spirit!"

Yes? So it is IN holy spirit that Christ's baptizes us... taking us INTO... himself. INTO... his BODY.

Think on this, dear one: there is the Father, and the Son who came forth from the Father. How did this third "person" originate... and from whom/where? If "he" came forth FROM the Father, then "he", too, is a SON, yes? Yet, JAH has only ONE so-begotten Son... yes? If "he" was already there, then "he" was the Father, yes? Yet, JAH is ONE.

The premise seems to be that the unity of the Father and the Son CREATED this third entity. But WHY? Why would JAH and Christ unionizing result in a third, totally, SEPARATE and DISTINCT person? What would be the PURPOSE of such a "person"? To speak for JAH? He has the Son for that. To speak for the Son? That One is alive, and speaks, and so can speak for himself. As he did with Philip, Saul, John, and others. So what reason is there to even THINK another person is NECESSARY? Only one: to usurp the position given the SON... as the ONLY Word of God... and Spirit OF THE TRUTH... which truth HE is... that guides, leads, and teaches those who belong to God.

If there is a THIRD person, though... why give glory to the SON? Why kiss the SON? Why not give credit to this third "person"... which is what those who believe in the trinity doctrine DO (along with giving the glory due the SON to sleeping (in death people) like Mary and various saints - WHERE is the glory to the SON, in light of the glory given to all of THESE??).

I didn't reject the trinity doctrine because the WTBTS rejects it, dear one. I rejected it because it isn't TRUE. Here's the thing: in order to KNOW the truth, one has to reject ALL that one has "heard it said" about... and go back to the "beginning"... the "ark" (womb of the woman)... and what came OUT of that. The FIRST thing... being Christ, the Son, who came forth from (within) the Father. One must start THERE, with HIM... only him. That he IS the Son of God... AND the One God SENT to give us SIGHT. Let everything else, though, go.

Then, one must allow HIM to "build" for them, on them... on the "rock" that is their FAITH in him. That he WILL lead them into all truth, that his mouth WILL speak only what is true and upright, that he will NOT mislead those who belong to him, because he IS the Fine Shepherd who gave his life on behalf of his sheep. Remove EVERYTHING else, EVERY teaching... tear it DOWN... ALL THE WAY BACK to the "foundation," and start OVER... STARTING with the Foundation Cornerstone. Him. The HOLY ONE of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah).

Rather than asking him, "Lord, is such and so TRUE?"... say, "Lord, YOU tell me what is true! Don't LET me continue in my OWN understanding... but YOU tell me!" And then, in line with that... EXERCISE FAITH... that he WILL tell you the truth AND that what he tells you IS true.

And then... ALLOW him to do what you ASKED him to... even if it means overturning VERY strongly entrenched things in you, things you believe are true because they are what you've always been taught and so always THOUGHT was true... but are NOT.

You will find that while SOME things you have learned are true (and so he will not only reiterate those things but corroborate them)... MOST are not. Not even. Not even close. But it will take FAITH... in HIM... and that what HE is telling you is TRUE... in order to let them go! And so, it's not easy. No, it's MUCH easier to hang onto those strongly entrenched things... what one "knows"... than step out on FAITH... and face what one does NOT know. It takes faith... and love. Because the reason for resisting... is fear. But perfect LOVE... casts ALL FEAR... outside!

Each one must decide for themselves, though. Whether to trust him, and so TURN AROUND and go BACK... toward and to HIM... and LIFE... and so in the OPPOSITE direction... or to keep pushing for in the direction THEY'VE chosen... even if that leads to the darkness... and destruction.

I hope that helps, dear one, truly. One can "explain" the "trinity" doctrine all day long... as a mystery or not. But if one is HONEST... the math DOES NOT ADD UP. Why, then, keep TRYING to make 1 + 1 = 3... when it equals... TWO??

Again, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama

Shel,
As much as you, or even I, want to argue "ask Christ", that can't be used to "disavow" the Trinity ( or justify it).
Personal revelation does NOT have "a say" in doctrinal matters.
As much as you and I would like it to be so.

The Doctrine must be addressed base don how it came to be, ie: interpretation of scripture as it was written and understood THEN.

You saying that Christ told you this and me agreeing carries NO MORE weight than a trinitarian saying that Christ told him otherwise.

According to what You have written before, you believe:
God is The Father.
The son of God IS the Holy Spirit.
There is also the holy spirit that is the essence of God that is given through Christ.
Correct?

That means God is ( at best) 2 people, Father and Son and from them comes the holy spirit BUT THAT holy spirit (force) is NOT a person, yes?

"Correct" and "yes," dear one (peace to you)! Correct... and yes!

Again, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama

So the passages that Personify the HS, how do you regard them?
When Christ says He will send the HS to teach, what does He mean?

I haven't read this entire thread, admittedly, but thought I'd share a perspective (and that's all it is, a perspective) I've come to have. Something in my Bible reading caught my attention. I first read it in the NET Bible, but the NWT states it, too:

Exodus 7:1: Consequently Jehovah said to Moses: “See, I have made you God to Phar′aoh, and Aaron your own brother will become your prophet

Note, "God" with a capital G. If Almighty God could make a human "God" to someone, why not make his son God to all?

Again, just my perspective. For the record: I do not believe that Christ is the Father. I do believe he is of the nature of God, that is, of divine nature. I believe he has the authority of God. I'm not quite certain whether he is the Spirit. Several verses seem to confuse this issue.

John 15:26: When the helper arrives that I will send YOU from the Father, the spirit of the truth, which proceeds from the Father, that one will bear witness about me; and YOU, in turn, are to bear witness, because YOU have been with me from when I began.

How can Christ be the Spirit if he's sending the Spirit? Unless... is there more than one spirit?

Of course, there's this:
Matt 28:20: And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.

Obviously, since Christ is in heaven, how can he be with us? Does this mean Christ is the Spirit? Are we to take this literally?


2 Cor 3:17: Now Jehovah is the Spirit; and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom.

A translation issue exists here. The Greek here is "kyrios", of which there are different schools of thought as to whom this should refer to, God or Christ.

They are errors, dear one (peace!), borne of intentional mistransliterations of the Greek word ekeinos (which translates as "he" OR "she" OR "it"... to promote the triune deity of the nations. What occurred, dear one, is EXACTLY what occurred for Israel, as to the manna:

"Then the foreign rabble who were traveling with the Israelites began to crave the good things of Egypt. And the people of Israel also began to complain. "Oh, for some meat!" they exclaimed."

This is one of the reasons Israel was warned to remain separate from the nations: because they would be persuaded by the GREATER number to turn against JAH and/or what HE provided for them. Same here. NOT that the nations were bad, per se, either time. But when they are a MAJORITY, their desires and beliefs can overshadow, even overcome. And so the Body was WARNED that this would occur: that wicked men would arise from AMONG them. That false christs (anointed) and false prophets WOULD pop up to mislead, IF POSSIBLE... EVEN those chosen ones. And that once the thing that acted as a restraint was gone, "removed"... which thing was the body of APOSTLES (them, having walked with Christ himself and so able to CORRECT any erroneous teachings that cropped up) and which "removal" was their being imprisoned, isolated, and even killed so AS to move them out of the way... the "great apostasy" would set in.

And so, as a result of that, we now have it going from the Father... giving some of HIS spirit (blood/breath/seed) to His SON... and appointing that SON to lead us... even saying we are to LISTEN to that One... and that Son SAYING that he and/or the Father would send his spirit (the spirit of TRUTH, he BEING the Truth) to teach, lead, and guide us... with him BLOWING some of that spirit ON his apostles and telling them to "go"... as well as on a group of people in an upper room at Pentecost (hence, the stiff wind/breeze... CAUSED by his blowing holy spirit IN them, as JAH did IN Adham, so as to bring them to LIFE)... and still doing so TODAY... and an actual apostle, John, corroborating this by saying that it is the ANOINTING (with that holy spirit, the "blood of sprinkling that speaks in a BETTER way than Abel's blood")... that teaches us and so we don't need ANYONE to teach us EXCEPT that anointing... to:

the Father and Son now being joined by a third "person"... who is EQUAL to them... yet, who has no name or other identity, but teaches, guides, and leads us INSTEAD of Christ, the Fine SHEPHERD...

all because some men wished to foment a false teaching that originated with the nations... and THEIR worship of triune gods.

And those of us who keep "following" them... keep showing ourself to be Israel, yes, but not FAITHFUL Israel. Rebellious Israel. Because we keep rebelling against the One JAH raised up for us... by "replacing" him with another "spirit."

When Christ says He will send the HS to teach, what does He mean?

He never said he would send "the holy spirit" to teach, dear one. There is NO "the" preceding his words. Nor are the words capitalized. But I want to show you something. In a couple of places, the SAME Greek word that denotes "spirit" is used to denote "Ghost." For instance, John 1:33:

"And I 2504 knew 1492 him 846 not 3756: but 235 he that sent 3992 me 3165 to baptize 907 with 1722 water 5204, the same 1565 said 2036 unto me 3427, Upon 1909 whom 3739 302 thou shalt see 1492 the Spirit 4151 descending 2597, and 2532 remaining 3306 on 1909 him 846, the same 3778 is 2076 he which baptizeth 907 with 1722 the Holy 40 Ghost 4151."

You will find that same phenomenon at John 7:39 (and several other verses):

"(But 1161 this 5124 spake he 2036 of 4012 the Spirit 4151, which 3739 they that believe 4100 on 1519 him 846 should 3195 receive 2983: for 1063 the Holy 40 Ghost 4151 was 2258 not yet 3768 [given]; because 3754 that [Jesus] 2424 was 1392 0 not yet 3764 glorified 1392.)"

Why? And both include the word "the" as well as capitalization, which is NOT in Greek. Again, why?

But let's look at the verses how they SHOULD have been transliterated:

John 1:33, first -

"And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizes with holy spirit."

Does John corroborate this? He does. He ALSO said:

"... I saw spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him." John 1:32

Interestingly, the same Greek word used for "it" HERE... eikinos... WOULD be the SAME Greek word eikinos used for "he" in the next verse (33)... if there WAS an "it", here. But there is NOT. Nor is there a "he"!! Why not?

And what of the account by Matthew (Matthew 3:11) where HE quotes John as saying:

“I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with holy spirit and fire."

Again, no "the" and no caps. BUT... where the word "with" appears, as to the holy spirit baptism, SOME versions say "IN". As in "he will baptize you IN holy spirit." Still no "the" or caps, though. It this accurate, "in"? No. Because although one may be baptized in (the) water... one is baptized WITH holy spirit... INTO Christ. Into his BODY. So as to become ONE with him... by MEANS of being of his Body... he being the HEAD of the Body.

Now, the other, as it is ACCURATELY transliterated:

"(But this spake he of spirit, which they that believe in him should receive: for holy spirit was not yet; because [Jesus] was not yet glorified.)"

So, holy spirit was someTHING that they that believed in Christ should RECEIVE, and not someONE... and wasn't YET... because HE had not yet been glorified!

Did God's spirit EXIST? Absolutely it did; remember, it existed when the earth was created, etc. BUT...

1. It was not POURED out... until Christ was GLORIFIED; and

2. The HOLY Spirit that Christ BECAME... did not exist AS SUCH... UNTIL HE... BECAME that Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:17).

And so the "spirit" that is SENT to those who belong to Christ is HIS spirit... the spirit of the TRUTH... which truth HE is and so such SPIRIT is his. He ANOINTS us with it, dear one. That's why it's called the "oil of EXULTATION." Because its receive not only grants LIFE and so a reason TO result/exult... but literally CAUSES exultation IN us. As it did with John...when still in the womb of Elizabeth!

So, there are two "holy spirits": the (holy) spirit of God, that is His breath, blood, and seed... and Holy SPIRIT of God... His Son and Christ, the HOLY ONE (see, he's even CALLED "holy") of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chose One of JAH (MischaJah).

I hope this helps, my dear, dear brother... truly!

As always, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama