xjwsforChrist

Armand, I hadn't ignored your question to me. I waited till I was sure what to say. I had to get over my profound distaste for this very, characteristically even, Jehovah's-Witness method of using isolated texts and aiming them at another situation or person...though I am not necessarily accusing you of doing so here...to make the speaker's point.

On page 6 of this thread, Shelby writes, directly TO me, speaking of my having returned (joyfully, after a considerable interval of much prayer) to the Catholic Church... she writes "When you ran back, you ran back to vomit, dear one." Thus, she deliberately chose that terminology, that choice of words, in speaking to me, of my actions, to maximise the emotive effect and, presumably, aware of the passage you quoted, to emphasise that in her view the Roman Catholic Church has been vomited out of Christ's mouth.

Armand, I was not disputing the fact that the word vomit is in the Bible. Quoting it on its own is just quoting it in the Bible, especially if it is referenced. My shock is at Shelby's choice of vocabulary here, choosing the words with which to argue her case. Aiming Biblical expressions to make the speaker's point is an arrogant, unwarranted and ultimately far more blasphemous misuse of sacred text than the many things condemned by her and others on this forum, no matter how often the writer articulates her (or his) humility.

To use the words of Jesus to further emphasise and insist on one's own prejudices, especially against another, and to imply, let alone proclaim, knowledge of Christ's mind on this matter, is nothing short of wicked.

The prejudice of Jehovah's Witnesses against the Catholic Church is partly that shared by extreme Protestants since the time of the Reformation, and partly stems from the vitriolic writings of Rutherford. I've noticed that very many of those who have left the Watchtower in actuality or their hearts nevertheless hang on to this prejudice along with a number of characteristic ways of thinking.

It's just born of ignorance and conditioning, conditioning from years of constant exposure to Watchtower mind-control techniques, and sheer downright ignorance of the love of God.

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I don't think God judges based on "the collective whole" or the "organization" but on individual basis.

It is important to understand that Our salvation is NOT based on anything WE DO but on what Christ did for us.

I don't quite agree with this. I agree that our salvation is based on what Christ did for us, but we DO need to DO something.

For this is the will of my Father, that everyone that beholds the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life, and I will resurrect him at the last day.
- John 6:40

He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I shall resurrect him at the last day; for my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood remains in union with me, and I in union with him.
- John 6:54-56

If YOU observe my commandments, YOU will remain in my love, just as I have observed the commandments of the Father and remain in his love.
- John 15:10

This is my commandment, that YOU love one another just as I have loved YOU.
- John 15:12

So, salvation is something you earn?

Perhaps something that, God forbid, one could lose?

Otherwise, I think you have it right, Paul.

How does that amendment feel to you?

Interesting discussion (peace to you, all!). Dear Char (peace to you, dear one!)... I really have nothing against the RCC - at least, no more than you do as to the WTBTS and THEIR teachings/practices - nor with any other man-made system of worship. And certainly nothing against you! We only got INTO a dicussion that INCLUDES the RCC because YOU had a problem with MY form of worship (attending the WTBTS Memorial, which you took me to task for). Again, our "differences" came through when I tried to explain to YOU that there are aspects of YOUR form of worship that I don't understand... but that it wasn't anything to cause divisions between us. I meant that when I stated it and mean it, now.

But, again, I will endeavor to keep the record STRAIGHT here. And so, again, the "turn" came when I called you to task... for the 3rd or 4th time, if not more... for YOUR poor treatment of dear Loz (which, to this day, you completely ignore/refuse to acknowledge) - again, I just didn't understand it, given how you regarded ME, she being of the same Body as I am... and you claim to be. Why the different treatment? I couldn't understand it, without attributing something "bad" to YOU... which I refused and still refuse to do. When SHE would make ANY comment about the RCC, your hair seemed to stand on end. When others did, however... absolutely nothing from you. Indeed, she never set forth specific disagreements, as dear 'Mom, PSacto, and Armand (peace to you!) ALL have. Yet, you have not responded to a SINGLE one of them as you have done to dear Loz, not even taken issue. I just couldn't understand what your "problem" was with HER... the "problem" YOU say you DON'T have... but somehow keep manifesting through your words TO her.

And so I spoke up... because watching it without doing so was becoming GREATLY saddening to me. Almost unbearable, as to her AND you.

From that point (me sharing my confusion as to your form of worship that requires confession), your responses have stated YOUR disagreement with MY/OUR beliefs... vritually ever times... based on your RCC association and acclimation. And NOT on what Christ said/taught. Not once. YOU are the one who keep bringing UP the RCC... based on YOUR beliefs that their teachings and doctrines are accurate. In doing so, you leave me and others NO choice but to respond to the errors... which I and they have done to virtually every one... and as kindly and lovingly as possible. AND... with support.

In pursuing the matter, however, and your perceived "sanctity" of the RCC... you have now changed your former position as to why/how you left them and ended up with the WTBTS... as you stated such to ME. You now state that you had "NEVER left," which was semantics... and untrue.

Now, I understand your REGRET and maybe even embarassment as to your choice, but if you want me to now "forget," (as you apparently have) as to what you told me as to the circumstances... I am sorry, but that isn't happening. NOT because I REFUSE to forget... but because what you are now saying is not the TRUTH as to what you stated BEFORE. Don't get me wrong, dear Char: I truly HATE it that I don't forget (much); it is sometimes as much a 'curse' (IMHO) as a blessing. But, unfortunately, I haven't forgotten as to this matter, much as you might like me to.

Which is what prompted me THEN... to tell what you I received from OUR Lord, whose is MY Lord... as to what occurred with you. I have known it from the first time you related your story to me, but delayed in telling it to YOU... because I didn't want to offend you as he told me it would whenever I DID share it. You left and, as YOU admit... were in the "wilderness." YES!! But then... you went BACK. What happens to Israel with they go BACK to that which God, through Christ, has called them OUT of, dear one? One thing: death. Today, spiritually (versus physically way back when).

I referred to it as 'vomit'... because it what the Greek word emeo MEANS. And while dear Armand showed you were our Lord used it, I used it in the same spirit as Peter... YOUR "Vicar"... as I stated. If you would condescend to read what HE wrote ABOUT it... you MIGHT see why I used it. I am not confident that you will, however, because your indignation stands as a "shield" between you... and the truth I shared WITH you.

As for those who think that perhaps I've judged you... or your faith... I would say to them, AGAIN, please be sure you have ALL of the facts, are aware of and privy to ALL of the information, as well as interchanges... that have transpired between parties before YOU judge as to what you "think" is/may be occurring. Because sometimes what appears to the EYES... including "conversations" in words on an Internet forum... can be misleading.

Before I "go," though, I have one more thing to say. And note, this is entirely from me, my Lord forgive me, but:

Before you... or anyone else... tried to deflect by falsely accusing me of beating some dead horse, etc., I have to say that I am APPALLED at ALL who have simply let the issue of your treatment of dear Loz "go"... while calling ME to task for pointing the matter out and calling upon you to ACKNOWLEDGE the issue and make peace/resolve it. Both you and they continue to ignore it, which is entirely your right, yes... and while appalled, I judge none of you. But to turn this upon me is absolutely... let me repeat that... ABSOLUTELY, a word I OFTEN use... ridiculous. And... hypocritical. It is an intentional deviation from the TRUTH... in order to garner the approval and "glory of men." And, as a member of the Body of Christ watching those who CLAIM to be so also, I am totally flabbergasted by it. I keep asking myself, "When are they going to deal with the TRUTH about this matter... and stop BS'ing everyone?! What IS this??!" Because everyone who is DOING it CLAIMS to have some kind of relation with Christ. Where is CHRIST, though... when TRUTH is thrown totally out the window?? HOW can Christ even BE involved? Some folks might be fooling themselves... and even one another... but I'm not fooled. Christ would have called ALL on the carpet about this hypocrisy. Heck, Paul would have. PETER would have, as well! And so all I can do is keep telling the truth, while exhorting YOU to do so... without judging you - I don't. But I'm not going to join you in the hypocritical facade, sorry. Can't do it. WON'T do it. And, again, if my telling the TRUTH makes ANYONE feel that I am no longer their friend... or they mine... well, praise JAH for free will... and choice, yes? Each one much choose, then, what they will. I choose... to stick to the TRUTH. I choose... Christ.[/i]]

Again, may you ALL have peace!

YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

SA, who wonders how some folks sleep at night... I mean, doesn't truth mean ANYTHING??

Aiming Biblical expressions to make the speaker's point is an arrogant, unwarranted and ultimately far more blasphemous misuse of sacred text than the many things condemned by her and others on this forum, no matter how often the writer articulates her (or his) humility.

To use the words of Jesus to further emphasise and insist on one's own prejudices, especially against another, and to imply, let alone proclaim, knowledge of Christ's mind on this matter, is nothing short of wicked.

Shelby, no need to concern yourself with any treatment of me, truly. While posts like the above appear here unchallenged I remain reluctant to engage. That this comes from one who chooses fellowship here with us of the body, just defeats me. Not to mention the relevance of Hebrews 4 v 12 which I'm hearing from my Lord.

Loz x

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"This is my son. LISTEN to Him!"

I made the dead horse comment that you turned into pasta The lengthy post that precedes mine, is it to openly chastise a person?

I pretty much scan the threads in case things get really heated. So it's mostly a superficial perusal til something rally jumps out at me. Are most of the exchanges between Char and Loz via private message? I know there is a lot of tension between a few board members here. People are getting very snippy. I believe that each person feels the same as the other.

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To fear me is to love me....

Also the above posts are off topic might have to create a new thread or take this into PM

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To fear me is to love me....

Earn? Hmm. Not sure I'd use that term. But I would say pre-requisite action is required. Even JWs say their "works" won't earn them salvation (they SAY this, but they don't really believe it . . . if they did, they'd scrap the field service reports and let each person's ministry be truly personal.) However, is there something required so one could have the "free gift" of salvation? I think so. One has to come to Christ, to exercise faith in his name. That takes action. If you call this "earning", so be it. However, if one doesn't go to Christ first, one cannot have the free gift of salvation.

“YOU are searching the Scriptures, because YOU think that by means of them YOU will have everlasting life; and these are the very ones that bear witness about me. And yet YOU do not want to come to me that YOU may have life.
- John 5:39,40

Basically, I see it as "here it is.... just come and get it." Once one comes to Christ, are further actions necessary, such as preaching, meetings, etc? No, these sorts of "works" are not required for salvation. However, keeping Christ's very simple commandments is necessary (love others, exercise faith in his name).

"Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one DOING the will of my Father who is in the heavens will.
- Matt 7:21

Take my yoke upon YOU and learn from me, for I am mild-tempered and lowly in heart, and YOU will find refreshment for YOUR souls. For my yoke is kindly and my load is light.”
- Matt 11:29,30


This tells me there IS a load, but it's not a burden. Certainly loving others and having faith in Christ's name is a light load.


I think this is true... faithful slave vs. evil slave.

I hear you, dear Loz (peace to you!)... and I am going to be done (again)... unless someone keeps trying to use my attempts to share the TRUTH as something for a wrong motive. In which, I will speak up and once again turn light on the truth, if I am compelled or directed to. But I hear you, dear one.

I know you made the "dead horse," comment, dear Pup (peace to you, as well!), but I wasn't singling you out. You are not alone in your thinking, I am sure. But you weren't even in the running of those I was addressing, actually. Your comment was just most apppropiate to "cover" what I needed to say. I'm just growing tired of the "Shelby's picking on me/someone" false propoganda and rhetoric. If no one else is going to speak up and say, "Okay, wait... you're the one who did what you're accusing Shelby of... AND keeping it going"... or at least, "Okay, wait, HERE'S what REALLY went down", then I will, no problem.

This is a forum for XJWs... FOR CHRIST. Yet, when some of us state that we ARE for Christ... and NOTHING/NO ONE else... and/or share what we hear from HIM (versus from some other "source") and/or back that up with support, whether from the Bible, dictionary, lexicon, encyclopedia, etc., WE are taken to task. NOT just what we believe, but US (well, me and a couple others). We are "badguys."

When we, in turn, take to task the BELIEFS (but not the PERSON) of someone who is NOT an xJW (by their own admission)... beliefs they PROFESS are NOT received from Christ... and we show were not TAUGHT by Christ (as such is recorded) or even the Apostles... but the record shows is merely the traditions, customs, and doctrines of men... we are STILL "badguys."

It is... remarkable... to ME... that xJWs who are now FOR Christ... such that they have a website that SAYS that's what they're for... are thought to need REFRAIN from sharing what they receive FROM him... often by others who may not even be xJWs and who put a man-made system of worship BEFORE Christ.

I wonder: what did folks THINK we were gonna talk about/share here?? What the GB "says" about Christ? The Pope? The Patriarch? The Dalai Lama?

What about what CHRIST says... about Christ?

Oh, that's right: he's alive, but he doesn't speak to anyone. Well, anyone any one of US know. Right?

Sorry, dear one. But I'm kind of tired of the "game." Either Christ IS alive... and speaks as a living being WOULD... or he might as well still be dead. He's not, of course. And either we're for Christ... or we're for others while trying to convince folks we're for Christ.

Me? I don't intend to hide the little bit of light he's given ME under no basket. For NO ONE. Not for one moment. Not even for another member of his Body. Rather, THEY would want to go and check with him and find out where their OWN "switch" is... and try turnin that sucka ON for a change... rather than tryin' to turn MY light OFF.

Sick of it, if the truth be known. And tired. I dunno - maybe I should blame my current frame of mind on my lack of sleep (due to the "change")... or stress (although I don't THINK I'm stressed. But I might be - on a plane to Africa tomorrow. LONG flight... and I kinda hate flying. Triple double martinis... here I come!).

Anyway, I was not targeting you or singling you out. Again, just thought your phraseology covered ALL whom I wished to address... without having to be specific. 'Cause ya'll know I can get specific.

Again, peace to you... and to you all!

A slave of Christ,

SA

Pup, there are no exchanges whatsoever between me and Loz, other than the oblique comments Loz makes aimed at me, as with the above post where she quotes my very reasonable and reasoned post but addresses Shelby.

It was a strange post, Loz, but since I don't really understand why you made the comment, no response is necessary. In fact, the resident hound dog has put it beautifully.

You make your point well, leaving_quietly, but what value, then, do you put on Christ's sacrificing of himself on the Cross? (I don't know if you prefer the word stake or not, and if you do, please just substitute the word stake for cross.)

I'm not making any statement or point here, because you have clearly identified the big question: what is the relationship between faith and works? Some take note of the concept of justification by faith, and others point to James' emphasis on the need for good works, suggesting that merely to believe is not enough. I rather felt that Paul Sacramento was emphasising the redemptive power of Christ's conquest of sin and death by submitting to being tortured and put to death but then three days later rising again from the dead.

Please, can you tell us where you feel the balance for salvation lies between those three elements? It is a most interesting point, bearing in mind that Christ came to save us all, and by his death and resurrection we are saved...yet he also gave us the injunction "if you love me, keep my commandments, then going straight to the promise "and I will pray the Father that he will send you another Comforter.

As Christians, living specifically for Christ and aiming, presumably, to do our best to follow him and him alone, we must do so un the context of Christ's own instructions, so we cannot isolate Christ from his Father and the Holy Spirit whom he promised to send to comfort us.

It's not oblique Char. I meant that what you wrote, (which I quoted), with reference to members of Christ's body here, and with whom you choose to have fellowship, was disgraceful. Hope that's clear enough?

HP unfortunately PMs aren't possible because Char refuses to respond.

Loz x

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"This is my son. LISTEN to Him!"