xjwsforChrist

Speaking to that understanding of the trinity, and what seems to be the issue:

Being love, and loving oneself (in a selfish way, because one IS called to love oneself- love your neighbor as yourself - so it is not necessarily selfish) are not necessarily the same thing.

God is love (and I speak of the Father). The love that He IS, turned outward (other), is why we exist. Why He created. Because He loved. He knew us before we were born, so He could and did love us before we 'were', so to speak.

His love gave birth to life. (light; Christ; the Son)

I don't know if I am explaining that just right, but that is the understanding that our Lord is giving me now.

Peace,
tammy

If God is Love, was God ALWAYS Love?
And if there was a point that The Son never existed and God was "alone", Who did God love? Himself?
If that is the case, them, being God, His love was complete and not lacking in anything and if that is the case, why "give birth" to The Son?

Yes, because He is the same "today, yesterday, and tomorrow."



This goes back to God BEING love, rather than just loving someone. If your whole being IS love, then it is not just a question of who God loved, but what love itself DOES.

That being said, the trinity is attempting to define God (and makes something an issue that is not an issue - the 'other love' thing) based on our very limited understanding - including/especially our limited understanding on how time works for God. In that sense, if God can see what is our future, then He could have loved before things and/or we 'were'.

In this sense:

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." Jeremiah 1:5



This is assuming that His love was lacking to begin with. Perhaps love itself compels one to 'give birth' and 'give life'. Especially knowing and loving those who would come forth.

(Love also gives all life a chance to choose their path - even those who might choose wrong - so even those that might choose wrong, are given the chance to repent and choose life.)


Peace,
tammy

Here is the thing though, what is love but a RELATIONAL state of being?
Can love exist in a vacuum?

Now, I know I am putting a human spin on love and I accept t that, but for arguments sake:

The highest expression of love, according to Christ as passed on by the writer of the GOJ, is to give oneself for another.
John 15:13

In all the examples we have of love, the examples that extol us to the highest love, they are relational examples:
To love others as Christ loved us.
To love others as we love ourselves (this is not a call to extend a selfish or self-serving love, but to love as we love, in a health sense one hopes).
To love our enemies.
God so loved the world...
Etc.

God is LOVE, God is the source of LOVE but what kind of Love is that?
Is it a self-serving love? Is it a compensational love? ( I love you so you can love me back) Is it a conditional love ( love me and I will reward you)?
If it is any of those then God is NOT God because those forms of love are inferior.

I don't know that it is that. Though I imagine that we often need the comparisons to begin to understand.



Can you love the child that you can imagine, but have not yet held? Not yet even conceived?

(that is a very poor example... multiply the above with God seeing vs. us imagining)



I am not good at things like that, lol. I can try, in order to understand where someone else is coming from. But I am not good at basing an argument on things (preconceived notions/acceptances) that may or may not be true.




Yes, and God serves us, as Christ showed.

For arguments sake though (which i am not good at, lol)... what if God 'dying' (if possible) meant that all life that comes from Him ceases to exist? Then, laying down his life is not such a good thing.

Giving OF his life (the spirit/the life) as He has done (so that we have Christ, who is the Life)... and His Son giving that same life given to Him for us... is of love.



Yes, and we probably need those relational examples to help us to grasp love.



Inferior to what, and why? How do we know it is inferior?

Not that I think that His is a self-serving love... as we have seen already, He GAVE life, and He serves US. I might need a better example of compensational love to fully understand what you mean as to that. As for conditional love, there are conditions attached - perhaps not to love - but to the amount of love and/or the reward that comes with/from that love. (IF you love me, you will obey my commands, and my father will love you and we will come and make our home with you)


Peace : )

tammy

Also, I am off to let my dad research his telescopes, Paul... but I'll be back... ; )


Peace!

tammy

I have appreciated greatly this subject on Holy Spirit.

Shelby and I were talking about this particular thought and what I was given to understand is that when CHRIST came out of the Jordan and Holy Spirit appeared as a dove, this was Christs full annointing as a son not his full glorification as " THE HOLY SPIRIT" as Shelby had mentioned above.

He was now able to dispense it from the father, through him as the son, to His disciples, by touching or breathing spirit on them.

Yes, he had received glory or Holy Spirit/energy/ power from the father to heal, cure, resurrect, but he had NOT yet been glorified completely as " THE HOLY SPIRIT" as he was still " in the flesh".

Had he been " fully glorified " as " THE HOLY SPIRIT" man would not have been able to handle this amount of energy and so a human body could no way sustain it for the same reason why " no man can see Jah and still live."

So although yes he was glorified in that he received his annointing which gave him MUCH power, therefore beginning his ministry and miracles, he did not receive " FULL" power until he returned home becoming " The Holy Spirit".....AGAIN!

John 17:5 " Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you BEFORE the WORLD ( or creation ) was."


Just wanted to share what I had heard from my Lord this morning ( I understand some may not agree, no worries)
Love to you all this beautiful day
Justmom

Many of us would claim that we would give our lives for someone we love. My husband, although an atheist has told me he would "die" for me. I am equally sure I'd give my life for him.

But, how many of us parents would give the life of our child, a child we so dearly love, for someone else? I'm not sure I could to be honest. And yet this is the love we have been shown by Jah. Imagine how much pain it would have caused Him to even send His dearly loved son into 'Satan's' world. Imagine the moment They said goodbye? Knowing what had to occur before They were reunited as father and son?

I've had to wait long years, though few by comparison, to see some of my children. Trust me it's beyond the worst pain imaginable. Yet, this is the love we've been shown. All of us.

Loz x

_________________
"This is my son. LISTEN to Him!"

Yes, I remember watching one of the more recent motion pictures entitled “The Passion of the Christ” by Mel Gibson. Powerful film and, yet, despite it’s power, and as good as it was in depicting the best of Mel’s ability in creating such a film as to the sufferings of the Christ, I’m sure it fails in the reality.

Can you imagine Jah, the Father, looking down upon His suffering Son, and seeing ALL that the Jews and the Romans are doing to His Son? Can you imagine what the Father saw and felt and heard in seeing and feeling and hearing His Son cry out, “Eli Eli lama sabachtani?” What MUST the Father himself have been going through, watching this, knowing this. The Father to think that His own Son—for a brief moment in time—thinking that ‘My Son thinks I have abandoned him.’

Makes me tear up even now when I think of it.

--Armando

First, thank you, dear 'Mom (peace to you!) for your phone call - you are correct: when JAH's spirit came down upon our Lord he was ANOINTED (somehow, I stated "glorified", probably because that was the issue on my mind, but that was not the case). He was not glorified at that point, which occurred at the start of his ministry (John 7:37-39). My apologies to all for the error!

Since you all seem to be doing so well, I won't interject comment as to the other comments, except this one:



The name "Abbadon" (from the Hebrew "avadon") means "Destruction," dear HP (peace to you!), and the name "Apollyon" means "Destroyer" in Greek. Not that Wikipedia is completely reliable, but it's a quick reference, so:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abaddon


http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Apollyon


He is one of the "princes" (i.e., those who have charge over a certain "principality") of the spirit realm. As, for example, the "prince of Persia," the "prince of Greece," "Michael, the prince of you people (Israel). His (Abaddon) realm is the world of the dead (Sheol/Hades).

He is the one JAH loosed upon Egypt:

"By faith he (Moses) kept the Passover and sprinkled the blood, so that the Destroyer might not touch the frst-born of them." Hebrews 11:28)

and upon Israel:

"Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the Destroyer." 1 Corinthians 10:10

He, who is also called "Destruction", has a "child". When praying to the Father for those who belonged to HIM, my Lord said:

"While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of Destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled." John 17:12

Again, some believe this to have been a reference to Judas but, again, Judas has not yet been judged so we have NO way to know whether his sin will result in eternal destruction for him. He DID repent (Matthew 27:3)... and the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies, shows mercy to whomever HE wishes to show it.

However, one HAS already been judged: our Adversary, the ruler of THIS world, whom we call "Satan" and "Devil":

"... because the ruler of this world has been judged." John 16:11

That "ruler" (or "prince") is the Adversary:

"I will no longer speak much with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and in me he has nothing." John 14:30

"... rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time." Revelation 12:12

How do we know that one is the ruler of THIS world? Because that one SAID he was ruler of this world, that ALL of its kingdoms belonged to HIM:

"The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendor; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. [Jesus] answered, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.’” Luke 4:5, 6

And my Lord did not correct him (which he would have if that one had been lying).

Just as the world of the dead (Sheol/Hades) is the "realm" of Abaddon (Revelation 9:11), THIS world is the "realm" of the Adversary. HE is "king" HERE. Christ is NOT; his (Christ's) kingdom is not OF this world, nor is it any part of THIS world:

"My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world." John 18:36

So, BEFORE my Lord's prayer about "losing" the "son of Destruction," the Adversary had been judged. Eternally. He was and is the ONLY one judged thus far... although others are, in effect, also judged:

"For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God." John 3:17-20)

These others, however, CAN TURN AROUND... and PUT faith in the Son... at any time prior to their death... so as NOT to be judged/condemned. But it must be before fleshly death because AFTER their death they belong TO Death, Abaddon... if they have NOT put faith in the Son so as to belong to HIM). The Son already went to the realm, the world of the dead, to show himself and preach a release to the spirits held THERE. Once he came back from that place... it's all about here, now. No one's gonna go there and tell them about him again.




No, dear one. He is JAH's enemy, the LAST enemy, and thus slated for destruction:

"The last enemy to be destroyed is Death." 1 Corinthians 15:26

Death was not born or created, dear one. He, like JAH... was always there. UNLIKE JAH... he will not ALWAYS be there. He did not start OUT as an enemy; rather, his jealousy caused him to BECOME an enemy. When JAH put division between him, Death... the "darkness"... and His Son, Christ... the "light":

"The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. Then God said, “Let the light come”; and the light [came forth]. And God saw the light, that [it was] good; and God divided the light from the darkness." Genesis 1:2-4

This isn't talking about the PLANET earth, dear one... but the "physical" universe. BEFORE the physical universe came into existence (which it did by means of the SON that is the Light)... the Darkness reigned over everything, second only to JAH. And then JAH brought forth... from within HIMSELF... a "piece" of Himself... the Light... and LIFE. And Death was no longer "king", except over the realm given HIM (Sheol/Hades). This "separation", caused by JAH's bringing forth His Son... started the "war" that now exists... between LIFE... and DEATH.

Since JAH is the ALmighty God, however, even Death answers to Him (John 1:6; 2:1). He holds the key(s) to Death's realm (Revelation 1:18; 9:1, 2), and so, yes, and can be used BY Him... loosed... as he was used against Egypt... and a large number of Israelite enemies (185,000 in once instance, I think the number was).

I hope this helps, dear HP... and, again, peace to you!

YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

SA

Would a believer turned atheist be blaspheming against the Holy Spirit?

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To fear me is to love me....

Applying logic, if he turned atheist then he was no longer a believer, so, ergo, he wasn't fully a believer in the first place.

Actually, although the term "believer" is used such a lot online in JW and ex JW forums, it is not a term one hears much elsewhere, and it's not one i like. It's inaccurate, and implies that becoming a believer is a bit like flicking a switch. I much prefer the expression "to have faith". That makes it much less cut and dried, and doesn't enable others to be judgemental in this regard. Fortunately, Jesus showed us when, in Matthew 7, verse 20, he tells us that even though we have so little faith, if we have faith as a grain of mustard seed, even a tiny bit, we will be able to move mountains.

Anyone feeling their faith lacking, can simply ask for more. "Ask and you will receive" Matthew 7:7

Would a Christian or Catholic who renounced their faith for another be blaspheming against the Holy Spirit?

_________________
To fear me is to love me....

There are no wrong answers as this is all about personal belief and opinion

_________________
To fear me is to love me....

I don't think so, because it wouldn't be disobeying the will of God with full knowledge and understanding...remembering that my understanding of the sin against the Holy Spirit, and the understanding given me in the church, is different from Shelby's, as she expressed it earlier.