xjwsforChrist

To the Household of God, Israel, and those who go with... may you all have peace!

On another thread some of us were discussing whether or not God was a spirit. Most understand what they do about God pursuant to some religion they may have formerly been a part of or currently associate with. Understandably, religion provides a form of solace to many: they are able to associate with like-minded/hearted people, possibly in surroundings that are serene, perhaps even well-appointed, as well as engage in shared community activities, many of which are beneficial to the larger community.

Religion, however, cannot explain God... Who OR What He is; only One can do that: His Son and Christ, the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah):

"No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known." John 1:18

And only THAT One can... and does... make God known to others:

“All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him." Matthew 11:27

"All things have been delivered to me by my Father; and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him." Luke 10:22

True, we may be able to look to the creation to get some sense of God's QUALITIES, but while qualities can give us some insight into a person's persona, it doesn't tell us all. How many times have we heard it said, as to someone who has, for some reason, moved out of what others considered the "norm" (for him or humans, in general), "I just can't believe it! I can't believe he/she did... said... " How many times have people who "knew" someone stepped up to say they would have NEVER thought/imagined such-and so "about" them? How many spouses/parents/children/siblings THOUGHT they "knew" their loved one... only to find out they didn't know everything?

While the outward expression/manifestation can give us SOME idea of how a person is, such is not always reliable... or even accurate.

The same is true of the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies. While His "invisible" qualities MAY be discerned by the creation, the truth is that only SOME of those qualities are discernable that way. His FULLNESS, however, not only as to His qualities, both invisible AND visible... but His full nature... AND SUBSTANCE... can only be discerned through one means: His Son.

That Son, however, was not recorded to say, "Look at nature and you'll see God." Or "Look at the creation and you'll see God." Or "Listen to what religion says God is... and you'll see God and what He is." He said:

"'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew ME... you would know my Father. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.'” John 14:6, 7

Now, some take this to mean that Christ and the Father are the same (hence, when they refer to "God" they also mean Christ, and vice versa). But the disciples knew he meant something else. Hence, Philip asked:

"Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.” John 14:8

My Lord responded:

"'Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?" John 14:9

Some (and I don't necessarily mean any here, so I hope none take this personally - it is not intended to mean ANYONE in particular) will argue that my Lord's response proved that he WAS God, the Father. But did it? The following words show he did not:

"Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is [i]in me[/i]? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work." John 14:10

It is true that we may not be able to see God. But NOWHERE is it written... or stated by Christ... that we cannot see HIM, Christ. Indeed, we are told TO look to/at him!

In the mythical account, Persueus could not look directly at Medusa; he had to "see" her through her IMAGE shown in a mirror-like shield. Looking at that mirror shield, he COULD "see" Medusa, just not directly. Same thing. Want to see God... what He IS, His SUBSTANCE? Look at GOD's "mirror image"... Christ. SEE Christ, the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah)... and you will "see" God, the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies.

It really is that simple, dear ones. All it takes is faith... the size of a mustard seed. That size, however, although very small... is more that even I possess. What I DO have... is what was GIVEN me by that Holy One. Ask and you, too, shall receive. Luke 11:13

Indeed, KEEP asking... KEEP seeking... and KEEP knocking. Because if you do, the Door WILL be opened to you. Do NOT tire out! And while you're asking, seeking, and knocking, consider asking specifically for ears so that you, too, may hear when the Spirit and the Bride say to YOU:

"Come! Take 'life's water'... the holy spirit of God by means of which those "wishing" are GRANTED ear to hear... and eyes to see... and is poured out from the innermost parts of the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit, the SON of God... JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah)... FREE!"

KISS... the SON... and PRAISE... JAH, you people!

Servant to the Household of God, Israel, and all those who go with, and a slave of Christ, to time indefinite,

SA

I don't know anyone who would think that Christ and the Father are the same, Shelby. I don't know what Unitarians believe, because I have never met one to ask. But no Christian, from any church or none, as far as I know, believes that Christ and the Father are one.

Clearly, they are not. The Father is the Father. The Son of God is the Son. Son of the Father. Both equally clearly, by definition, since the Son is of the Father, have the same divine substance of God-ness. It cannot be otherwise. While on earth, in human form, the Son was thus both God and Man. Once Ascended, obviously the human flashily form was no more.

As far as that goes, everyone believes the same!

Shelb-meister!

Um...really quick. Can you clarify what the expression 'Kiss the Son' Means? his feet? Maybe it means to humble oneself to him? Or ..? Clarification please. Loved the post. Encouraging and uplifting..

Me

I'm glad you've posted this Shelby. There is no need for anyone to think that Jah and Christ are mysteries that are beyond our human understanding and knowing. If it were so it would be unloving. They want us to know and understand and love them without any shroud of mystery and confusion. Christ is there to talk and listen to for us all. It just takes faith, and only a little even. That's how much He and His father love us.

Loz x

_________________
"This is my son. LISTEN to Him!"

Yet, they are out there, dear Char (peace to you!). Perhaps the very interesting chart on this link (which wasn't hard to find, at all) will help you see that:

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/grdebate.html



Nor do I but the chart seems to touch on that - although, keep in mind that the chart certainly isn't all inclusive and may not even be completely accurate. My understanding agrees mostly with those in the "Arian" group (which apparently includes Jehovah's Witnesses); however, there is much in that category (for instance, that Christ was a creation) that I cannot and do not agree with. Some aren't even accurate as to Jehovah's Witnesses, per my recollection of what they believe.



No Christian, perhaps; however, the chart seems to indicate that some who call themselves "christians," do. Since there are so many factions of "christians," I personally think it folly to say "no Christian from any church... believes." If they are part of an earthly church, they could very well believe a whole lot of things. Including that they should end their earthly lives by their own hand one way of another in order to be with Christ. If they can believe that, I would never presume to say what else they do/don't believe.



Clearly to whom, dear one?



But now see, that isn't so clear to ME, at least, not as to having "the same divine substance of God-ness." I would agree that they have the same divine substance of god-ness (and,yes, there is a difference, but only such as humans understand it - one (big G) is a higher substance than the other (little g). JAH has both big G and little G. Christ has little g... and a substance between big G and little G... but not big G YET. Not until after the Judgment, when he is handed the kingdom FOREVER and JAH becomes "ALL things in ALL." Then, those who have little g-ness will attain to the NEXT level (where Christ is now) and Christ will attain to the level where JAH is now (big G).

Because if one is big G, there is nothing greater than such one. And right now... and until JAH becomes all IN him... JAH, the Father, is still greater than the Son, Christ. For now.

Also for now, MANY have little g-ness, including the angels... and the Adversary (who is a little higher than angels, but less than the Son, which is why destroying HIM must take place "just so"). They too are of the same substance; just a lot (LOT!) less of it. Some day, those of Christ's body will attain to literal g-status (for now, they have only a token of that status), above the angels but less than Christ, and certainly less than JAH.

The thing is, not everyone who opines on the matter truly knows what that "substance" is. Since many consider God a mystery, I am not sure just how such ones would KNOW so as to SAY that He and Christ do or do not have the same substance of God-ness, though. Or that the angels don't. One would have to know what that substance actually WAS... or at least have some idea, yes? If not, then they can't know one way or the others; if so, then it's NOT a mystery. Right?



That is one viewpoint, yes, but I am not sure it's an accurate one. Another is that he was earthly man and heavenly man... flesh of man... but with God's blood. Like his brother, Adham. But never God (as Joseph, while second highest in power was never Pharaoh). Only His (God's) image and representative. But that does not diminish him. Like an ambassador, he had great authority with none above him BUT God. But... he didn't have ALL authority while on earth in human form. Because all authority had not been GIVEN him during that time. Which is what he said. It wasn't until AFTER he died and was resurrected that he said ALL authority was given him, in heaven AND on earth.

Since he didn't have ALL authority before... how could he have been God? Unless God didn't have ALL authority while Christ was here, too? But how could THAT have been? While Christ was here... and before... only JAH had ALL authority, dear one.



No, because it was FULLY transfigured. Put off and replaced with "robes of state," the WHITE robe of the spirit body. Only, again, an even better one than he before because THIS time it granted him the glory of a King of KINGS, and Prince of PRINCES.



Would that it were so, dear one, but I'm thinking that chart shows differently... and much better than I ever could

I hope it helps and, again, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

SA

Well, after all, Shelby, I was very careful to say "I don't know anyone who..." And "no Christian as far as I know".

Yes, Arianism is the belief that the Son is less than the Father, that the two are unequal. I know that is what you believe and what Jehovah's Witnesses believe. It was part of why I awoke, as it were, from my quasi-brainwashed state, and got out of there just as fast as I could. Greased lightning.

I, in common with the large body of Christians all over the world, of very many denominations, do not share that belief. We believe with deep sureness that the Father and the Son together with the Holy Spirit, while being Three separate Persons, are yet one God.

This is one of those very important areas where we differ, you and i.

Arianism was one of the very early areas where different forms of belief and understanding separated from the greater number of the early Christians.

Voice-Dude! Peace, man!



"Really quick"? ME?! Ummmmm... yeah... LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL! Oh, THAT was funny! It means to receive, accept, glorify, revere, do obeisance to, and obey... the Son, dear one. As Egypt was told to do Joseph. After Joseph revealed the meaning of two dreams to Pharaoh (the glory for which he gave to JAH) and told Pharaoh what to do in order to avoid disaster in the land, the account states:

"The plan seemed good to Pharaoh and to all his officials. So Pharaoh asked them, “Can we find anyone like this man, one in whom is the spirit of God?”

Then Pharaoh said to Joseph, “Since God has made all this known to you, there is no one so discerning and wise as you. [u][b]You shall be in charge of my palace, and all my people are to submit to your orders. Only with respect to the throne will I be greater than you.[/b][/u]”

So Pharaoh said to Joseph, “I hereby put you in charge of the whole land of Egypt.”

Then Pharaoh took his signet ring from his finger and put it on Joseph’s finger. He dressed him in robes of fine linen and put a gold chain around his neck. He had him ride in a chariot as his second-in-command, and people shouted before him, “Bow down!” Thus he put him in charge of the whole land of Egypt.

Then Pharaoh said to Joseph, “I am Pharaoh, but without your word no one will lift hand or foot in all Egypt.” Pharaoh gave Joseph the name Zaphenath-Paneah* and gave him Asenath daughter of Potiphera, priest of On, to be his wife. And Joseph went throughout the land of Egypt." Genesis 41:37-45

"Kiss[ing] the Son" means to receive, revere, and obey HIM... as Egypt was to receive, revere, and obey Joseph. Which means above ALL... EXCEPT God (Pharaoh). And WHY? Because just as to NOT do so, as to Joseph, would have a direct defiance of PHARAOH'S decree, to do so as to CHRIST... would be a direct defiance... and affront... to the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies. Christ is the "ruler" (King) HE (JAH) raised up over the people.

Hence, as Christ himself said, through David:

"I will proclaim JaHVeH's decree:

He said to me, “You are my son;
today I have become your father.
Ask me,
and I will make the nations your inheritance,
the ends of the earth your possession.
You will break them with a rod of iron;
you will dash them to pieces like pottery.”

Therefore, you kings, be wise;
be warned, you rulers of the earth.
Serve JaHVeH with fear
and celebrate his rule with trembling.
Kiss his son, or he will be angry
and your way will lead to destruction,
for his wrath can flare up in a moment.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him." Psalm 2:7-12

Does he mean to live you life a cowering, drooling, fearful idjit? No, of course, not. He meant that this is what the Father, the MOST High God and MOST Holy One of Israel, has DECREED... and so just as Israel/Egypt should not have put Pharaoh to the test as to who that one chose to be his second in command... WE should "not put JAH to the test" as to HIS (Christ's) appointment... lest we anger JAH.

Yet, many, including some who call themselves "christians" don't listen to Christ, don't "kiss" HIM so as to obey HIM and follow HIM, the Fine Shepherd... but listen to, so as to obey... others: hired men to whom the sheep do not belong. John 10:9-16



I am glad, dear one. My desire is not to be burdensome... but merely a voice saying that there IS One who yoke is kindly and whose load is light... so go to HIM... "that seasons of refreshment may come upon you." I hope that that is what you and everyone else get from the information I share, truly.

Again, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama

Absolutely, dear Loz (peace to you, dear one!). Absolutely. Always have wanted us to know and understand them, so AS to love them. What parent doesn't want their child's love? What sibling? Unfortunately, some of our cultures confuse "respect" with love, some even placing "respect" ABOVE love. And because of that outlook, believe God demands "respect," with little REAL regard for love.

But it's we who have it backward. WE believe that if you respect someone you will love them. The truth is, when you LOVE someone... you also respect them. I can respect you, but not love you. I cannot love you, however, and not respect you. So love... comes first.

And this is the way of the TRUE God... the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies, and His Son and Christ, the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah).

Peace!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama

Well.......that explains everything there. *scratches head* you know...i think my brain just developed a new blood cell on that one. Thx!


*pokes left side of head*

Me

p.s. usually when I say 'real quick' ... i mean that more like 'i hope i'm not burdening you! but could you explain it quickly? so you're not brudened for long periods of time!'

Yes, absolutely, we can know God... through knowing His Son. One of the reasons Christ came was to show us His Father. So that God is not unknowable. In fact, the reason that I came to love God (truly love Him, not convince myself that I love Him... but sorta fear him too), is because of Christ. I had been looking at the more 'vengeful' God of the OT (not completely, because I got that God is love... but the two seemed to conflict, so one image was standing in the way of understanding and knowing the truth)

But I came to love and know Him because of Christ. First, because Christ loved his Father. That was a lightbulb moment for me. "... wait a second... Christ LOVES His Father... I must have been looking at something wrong..."

Second, once I came to understand that Christ is the image and truth of His Father. Nothing else. See Christ, see God.

The Father is greater than Christ... he said that himself... but He does not have to be a mystery, if we are looking at Christ to see Him.


I agree this is a very uplifting thread, Shelby. How can it not be? We are invited to go to Christ, to learn from Him, to see and know Him... and so also God.

Peace and love to you,
tammy

I'm not sure that's exactly what you stated, dear Char (again, peace to you!), but I certainly accept that that's what you MEANT, absolutely, dear one.



Okay, dear one. It's not what got ME out of there... but so long as we both GOT out of there...



Again, okay...



Well, I have a couple/few questions I'd like to ask you, if you will permit me, dear one? Thank you!

1. Is it your position that you all are... ummmmmm... correct... BECAUSE you a "large body... all over the world, of very many denominations"?

2. Or is it because Christ himself revealed it to you?

3. If he revealed it to you, HOW did he do that? Was it by means?

4. By holy spirit? And if by holy spirit, HOW did he do it?

5. Or, if by holy spirit, do you mean by the Holy Spirit, isn't that the same one as Christ himself, per 2 Corinthians 3:17?

6. If so, and so by Christ, the Holy Spirit... where is the "extra" Holy Spirit you and others speak of coming from? Who is that one... and what is his/its 'name' (because many believe in such an entity because of their belief that Christ disciples were to be baptized "in the name of the Father (so, okay, JAH/JAHVEH, Yahweh, even Jehovah)... and of the Son (Jah eShua, Joshua, Yeshua, etc., or even "Jesus")... and pf the Holy Spirit (whose name is... what, dear one?).

7. If not by any of these, when HOW do you KNOW? Who (or what?) "told" you... and how?



Yes. But I can share with you HOW I know, dear one. I am not sure your position is supported... by holy spirit, the Holy Spirit, Christ, the Bible, God, or anything other than the traditions and customs of men. I am open, however, to discussing it with you, if you care to.



May I ask, on what do you base your position as to that? Because the chart indicates just the opposite. At least, the Arians seem to think so. I am not a fomenter of Arianism (and to clarify for those here who might be confused, dear Char and I are not meaning "Aryanism," as in modern skinheads/Nazism - they are not the same thing). I'm just a slave of Christ and servant to those in the Household given him. Now, that some of what he has shared with me comports with what Arians generally believe... I cannot help that. If the position is that the "trinitarian" belief preceded the others, is it possible that such was the product of the "great apostasy" and or "wicked men" who Christ SAID would arise from among and within the Body... who were already doing their "thing" when he gave the revelation to John? Are we really to believe that all of that was rooted out... yet, men wear robes and garments, and/or live in grand edifices, including rural compounds called "Educational Complexes," etc., all derived from funds given by people who THOUGHT they were giving to God? How can that be, though, in light of what Christ wore... and where HE lived?

I'm sorry, dear, dear Char, but I can't see Peter, let alone Christ, needing fancy red shoes and great hats, etc. Nor can I see either of them living off money taken from widows... or sanctioning educational complexes/institutions, etc. Now, that doesn't mean there isn't some conceivable explanation for all of that... but no one's ever presented one yet that made ME see how it could.

But I don't want you to think I am singling you out. I was not. I made some comments and you commented that YOU didn't know anyone... to which I responded I didn't either... but they certainly are out there.

I hope this helps and, again, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama

The only way a servant can be burdened by someone who is NOT his/her master, dear one (again, peace to you!), is for that one to try and get the servant to turn on, betray, disobey, overstep, ignore, change, beg off from, or otherwise disrespect his master. But asking a servant to share what the master has already told them to share... how can that be a burden, dear one? It is simply a reminder to "do" what the master has said to do, yes?

The "burdens" are when one is asked to say, interfere in the daily/routine life of another, say as when our dear Lord was asked by one brother to make the other "divide" the inheritance with him. What did that have to do with God and Christ? It was as to treasures of THIS world and so not of interest to my Lord. More than that, they both should have KNOWN was to do: give it all to each other! Because that is what LOVE would do.

But no, no burden here, luv. You know I would tell you if it was "beyond the realm" of what I am permitted to share, yes? LOLOLOL!

I will share what I can when I can... if I can, dear one. No worries.

Peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama

Good info here.

Just wanted to add:

But we know that the Son of God has come, and he has given us intellectual capacity that we may gain the knowledge of the true one. And we are in union with the true one, by means of his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and life everlasting. - 1 John 5:20

Greetings:

I was born into and raised as a Roman Catholic for many years. In those years I attended Mass every Sunday and sometimes other days of the week, had my First Communion and many communions after that, had my confirmation, attended parochial school, and went to years of catechism. Roman Catholics claim to be Christian.

As an adult I abandoned the Roman Catholic Church. I was disillusioned by her—this so-called “Mother Church.” After an extensive studying of her history, both ancient, medieval, and modern, I abandoned, what is in my opinion, the whore. Strong words? Yes, they are, but these are my feelings about her—my experiences from have been involved in her. This is not to say that I abhor Catholics. I don’t. I abhor the church organization of Catholicism. Just as I can say I abhor the various organizations made up of the various denominations of Protestantism. This is not to say that I abhor Protestants. I don’t. It is as Our Lord stated: “Do as they say, but not as they do.” “Do as they say [because they oftentimes say good things that “we the laity” should do], but not as they do [because many, many are lying hypocrites], just exactly as Our Lord described.

Over the many years of my life, I have had countless conversations about God, who and what He is, with many a Catholic and with many a Protestant. In those conversations, many became heated conversations because of my unwillingness to accept their dogma.

Many Catholics and many Protestants believe in the Trinity. Many I have heard say that the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God, but they are not three Gods, but One. Yet, in my reading the Bible, this is not so. The Father is God. Our Lord even stated that his father was God. Never in any place in the Bible is Christ recorded to have said that he was God. And the Holy Spirit, as defined by the churches of Christendom, doesn’t say diddly. Yet the non-speaking Holy Spirit, as defined by the churches of Christendom, is God too. How does that work? Don’t answer. That’s was rhetorical.

The only person in the entire Bible who is described as being “The God” is the Father. No one else is ever said to be “The God.” Yet the churches of Christendom say otherwise. Whom are you going to believe? The Christ who says his Father is God or the churches of Christendom who say that all three are God.

The Bible states that the Father is the hearer of prayer, yet Catholics have prayed and continue to utter their prayers to almost everyone: they pray to the Father, they pray to the Son, they pray to the Holy Spirit, they pray to Mary and call her the Mother of God, they pray to Peter and Paul and to ALL THE SAINTS. Just as an aside, ALL Christians are Saints. So what that means is that it’s okay to pray to fellow brothers and sisters. How does that work? It’s rhetorical! And then it’s Mother Church who declares who a Saint is—not God. How does that work? It’s rhetorical.

And some of the Protestant churches are the same. There is so much blasphemy in the Roman Catholic and Protestant churches.

They disgust me.