xjwsforChrist

Very interesting that you use the WTBTS' misstatement of the date of the fall of the first temple as an example, dear one (peace!). I mean, what COULD happen if every JW realized THAT truth, and so the truth about all the dates and events derived from that one falsehood? Wouldn't bode well for the entire organization, would it.

Makes ME wonder: is it possible that a similar this is occurring in other instances... that some KNOW what some dates be off "truly means" and so, like the WTBTS, are "sticking with" their "story"?

Not saying that's what occurring. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, by any stretch. Just thought it interesting how often we accept something as true... when the falsity of it is right in front of our noses. Or vice versa. We just can't... don't... or won't allow ourselves... to SEE it.

Thanks for the discussion, my brother... and peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama

It could be but the one thing we can count on in regards to science is that it is "self correcting" and the moment ANYONE can prove that a particular thinbg is wrong, they will
Very few things are stated as fact in science and even dates are always stated as estimates.
Science is will aware that "tomorrow' we can discover something that takes a scientific "fact" and makes it "false".
This is why science, when it can, uses multiples sources to state something with any degree of certainty.
Can it still be wrong?
Absolutely
But for that it has to be proven wrong.

So, what read you stating, dear P (again, peace to you!) is that with science a thing is true UNTIL it is proven untrue? What, though, of the REAL truth... you know, pending disproven the stated "truth"?

Not trying to contend, luv. It's just that that's the truth I'm interested in: the REAL truth... and not simply what we know (for now)/say is truth. Cause the REAL truth... doesn't change or "correct". It just IS. Regardless of what we (think we) "know."

You feelin' me?

Peace!

YSSFS of Christ,

SA

I really, really, really wish that some certain others... from some certain other place... would make this statement ; )

It is only wrong (untrue) if you can prove it wrong (untrue)...


You pickin' up what I'm layin' down?



Peace,
tammy

_________________
To fear me is to love me....

Until it was proven that the earth was round, what was it?
Until it was proven that the earth goes around the sun, what did they believe?
Until man flew, was flight possible?
Until we went into space, what was space?
Our truths about the world we observe are true until that are proven not to be.
If the universe is not billions of years old then we have to accept that all we know about physics is wrong.

Ummmm... round, luv (peace to you!)... and that's my point: it was ALWAYS round, regardless of what WE knew/believed/understood. It did not BECOME round once it was proven it was round. It was round all along, NOT flat (as some believed it was before its "roundness" was "proven"). Yes?



Regardless of what "they" BELIEVED... the TRUTH was that the earth goes around the sun, yes? Always was the TRUTH, yes, even though we did not NOW the truth?



Well, yes... because birds and other creatures fly. Flight for man was always a POTENTIAL... and, once he understood how to do it, possibility. But not literally possible, no... until an appartus to do so was devised and man flew (even with the apparatus, if it didn't WORK, well then...). Now, that it was "not" possible does not mean it was IMpossible. Right?

Until we went into space, what was space?

Space... was space, luv. Long, long before we ever went into it. Just like blood always had red and white cells, even before we "discovered" them. It did not miraculously change to HAVE such cells... at the point where "we" became able to SEE them. So, do you see that word, "discovered"? It mean DIS... covered. That we take the "cover"... which perhaps CONCEALED the truth... OFF of something. So that once OFF... WE can see it BETTER... it's TRUTH. Doesn't mean that truth WASN'T before we could see it. We just couldn't/didn't SEE it... yet.



See, now, I don' think that way. To ME, that is an enslaving way of thinking. Because it limits us to the "here and now." MY "mind" (and heart) thinks BEYOND that... to BEYOND what is "here", now. I mean, gravity existed long, long before anyone could prove its existence. The moon was NEVER made of green cheese... and it didn't take a voyage there to SEE that it wasn't for the truth to BE that it wasn't. Do you SEE?



Which, while perhaps an uncomfortable thought, COULD be true, yes? I mean, what if there is actually a "higher" form of "math" than physics, that once "discovered" show our current physics to be severely lacking? Would that math have NOT been TRUE... simply because WE didn't KNOW of it... yet?

What, for example, if the universe is NOT the "shape" we believe it is, but is actually more like, say, a folded over taco shell? Some BELIEVE the earth IS round. Others say, no, it's ACTUALLY a prolate elllipsoid. Yet, another says, no, ACTUALLY, it's this:

http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/earthshape.htm

So, per your position, at one point the earth WAS flat... until someone proved it was round. Then... it WAS round... until someone proved it was ellipsoid. Now, someone says, no, it's not really even ellipsoid, it's such and so. But WAS it flat... round... ellipsoid... TRULY?

Please don't get me wrong: I GET what you and others who believe as you do on this matter mean. And need. Me, though, I can't think that limitedly. I CAN'T. My brain doesn't "work" that way. Rather, I want the TRUTH, man. Not "today's" truth. THE truth. The REAL deal. The "one and only." Which I have found CAN be known... by means OF the Truth, the Holy SPIRIT that leads man into "ALL truth," the HOLY One of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah).

So, that's the journey I'm on, luv: following That One. Because were HE leads... "into ALL truth"... ALSO leads... to LIFE.

I know you understand, luv (wink!).

Peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama

The point is that UNTIL it can be proven that the speed of light is not what it is, the half-life of uranium is not what it is, the the physical constants of the universe are not what they are, then the best guess we have is what science has given us.
Am I open to the fact that science may be wrong about all the Laws of physics?
Sure but until that happens I am not gonna believe the world is 10K years old because the bible, which makes no claim on how old the earth and universe actually are, is interpreted by SOME to "say that".

I see we have Christians that believe in an old earth and Christians that believe in a young earth.

I fear Christians that believe in an old earth are one step away from being atheist or agnostic, which maybe we all are if we are honest.

Jesus's genealogy is tied to Adam, the first man and the man who introduced sin for which Christ died for.

And doing the math on that genealogy make the earth young, under 10,000 years.

When you believe in an old earth that is out the door and the global flood is out the door and the house of cards is crashing down.

Evolution is a scientifically useless hypothesis it is not a theory. The only use for the hypothesis of evolution is as a tool in the devils tool box to destroy faith.

We all make choices and choices of creation or evolution are made out of our ignorance and confusion.

In my world of confusion, the bible is the word of God and points to Jesus.

They say science corrects itself, and I believe that. One problem is evolution is not science. The pseudoscience of evolution is not the science that gave us the microwave and the computer and the cell phone.

Living things adapt, that is the way God made them to survive. Adaptation is called micro evolution, that is science because it is provable and demonstrable.

Evolution also called macro evolution is a hypothesis that is unprovable that all life came from a primordial soup billions of years ago from one common ancestor.

Evolution is not in harmony with the bible, if you choose evolution which is everyone's business why confuse yourself and have a side of bible Christianity? The taste is repulsive,
and incompatible.

If you choose evolution why not choose another God Maybe the God of reincarnation, or Gaea? Why not be a Budhist, or a Hindu? Christians are believers in Christ and his word the Bible. And followers of his word.

At least that is the way I see it.

Jesus said at John 14:2 " In my fathers house there are many mansions" In my opinion the Jesus house doesn't have any evolution and there was a world wide flood and you cant be a practicing homosexual or adulterer or practice any of the 7 deadly sins.

In my opinion the atheist and believers in the doctrines of men and practices of various sins all have assorted rooms down the lane at the other end of the estate.

Just as in Gods house there are many mansions, in my brain there are many mansions or rooms, I and all of us have the capacity to be theist or atheist or Buddhist, Hindus or Christians.

I post this here because today I am in my Jesus house and this site is called ex Jew's "which I am" for Christ, "which I am".

You are certainly welcome, jaguarbass : )


I know that this is a passionate subject for many people, and I also find it exciting and intriguing.

My Lord has helped me to understand though, that sometimes (often?) people are on two sides of an argument, thinking one or the other is wrong... neither side thinking that there is actually a bridge between them that makes each side having some truth.

I accept evolution (as in adaptation) to a point. I accept an old earth. I accept that there are mistakes and gaps in the scientific understanding of these.

I also accept Adam and Eve as being real. My Lord has revealed too much about them and the meanings of their story, etc, for me to doubt them.

I do not fully grasp how the dots are connected, so to speak, but I have no doubt that they ARE connected, and I can get a sense of that.

Many people will say that it is not possible for both... maybe they are right. But the more accurate saying would be,

It is not possible for both... according to our current understandings.


I could reason my way through and connect them and come up with hypothesis, and it can be fun to do so, but for the truth, I will ask and wait for my Lord to show me. Until then, I am patient. Science holds no threat to God or Christ. They are not in conflict. It is only our (mis)understandings and lack of knowledge of one or the other that puts them into conflict in our minds.


Peace all,
tammy

Hello Tammy, I see your point.

I myself got your view from the book "Conversations with God" by Neal Donald Walsh.
I don't think he is a Christian. I think he is a new ager.

I have to reflect on how to respond to your post.

The peaceable me wants to say, I understand and peace to you.

The biblical me wants to say "Think not that I came to send peace on the earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law” Matthew 10:34-35


I'm not the best Christian, I don't go to church. I dont give money to God.
I do and have prayed all my life and have read the bible cover to cover many times.
When I worked in the county jail the inmates used to say, "you have God in you."
It wasn't because I talked about God because I didnt. I just had caring and concern
also known as love.

The only thing that I have to offer God, is telling people what the bible says.

Having said all that and considering your view vs Jesus came to bring a sword not peace,

John 14:27 says I am leaving you with a gift--peace of mind and heart. And the peace I give is a gift the world cannot give. So don't be troubled or afraid.

Tammy I see that is the approach you are taking.

Peace to you.

Jaguar, thank you for your wish of peace. Just so you know, I will not wish you any less peace in disagreement, than in agreement, and I trust the same from you. (I do take a firmer stand on things that I know to be true, that I learned from Christ, the Spirit of Truth ; ) ... this is just not one of those things for me... so I wait in patience to hear from Him, and without trouble or fear in my heart - thank you for the verse that you quoted, that was lovely) But certainly take all the time you need/want to reflect, and thank you for doing so.

One thing from your post:

You said:



Just previous to that, you said:



You most certainly do have more to offer God, then telling people what the bible says ; ) You have caring and concern also known as love. Christ said that love is the greatest of the commandments, and it is also the command Christ gave his disciples: to love one another, as he loved them.

Peace and love to you,
tammy