xjwsforChrist

ANTHONY SAID

It is hard to know what is acceptable to talk about on a new forum like this. I apologize to the moderators if I overstep the boundaries of appropriate discourse. I thought I would share an excerpt from an inverview I did with self proclaimed 'vagabond' Vago Damitio. When I read his book Liminal Travel, I was struck by his unusual approach to spirituality and wanted to engage him on it. The whole interview is here . We talk about travel and the 'vagabond' lifestyle. I have cut-and-pasted the portions on spirituality:


Author of 'Happiness: How to Find It'

PSACRAMENTO SAID

I think that for many people the notion of an "invented God" is a very safe one, it gives them POWER and CONTROL.
When we invent a notion we have the power over it and as such, when we invent God, we are God and isn't that the whole issue with "the fall"?
Adam and Eve wanted to be God, we are all born with that "original sin" in the sense that we want to do it without God, we want control over our lives and to decide what is right and wrong at OUR whim.
And history has shown what an amazing job we do when we do just that, LOL !

Of course, the issue is that, for an "invented" God, God certainly isn't a "very good one", is he?

Personally I would invent more of a "superman" type, that would be way cooler don't you think?

I will say this though:
Man does indeed "create" God in "his own image" (mans) because we do tend to "humanize" God.
Of course as relational creatures we don't really have much of a choice and for us, God will always be defined by the "human characteristics" that we have no choice but to give him.

AGUEST SAID

and probably never will be, just to avoid the appearance of bias... but your post seems appropriate to me. It was interesting and intriguing (although I would counter that one shouldn't need an... ummmmm... "enhancer" to help them see/hear/know God... other than Christ - though I can understand it, given all of the distracting stimuli in the world today - LOL! - he truly is the only "medium" necessary). But yours is among the kind of info that should be posted on a site like this, IMHO.

So, post away!

Peace to you!

Your servant and a slave of Christ,

SA

ANNEB SAID

I have often wondered if people ingest "enhancers" in an effort to overcome the limitations of the human body during their quest for spiritual knowledge.

It seems to me that one of the consequences of the human fall from grace was being given a form (body) that was intentionally designed with "governors" in place. I don't believe that the form we have now is the same as the form the first human(s) had originally.

The sad thing is that no matter what "enhancers" are ingested or what rituals are developed, mankind will only be able to perceive "God" to a certain degree, a certain level, because that method is flawed. It's like broadcasting a radio signal using the wrong frequency; the attempt is being made but it's being misdirected.

My understanding is that a person can reach out, but unless they are eventually willing to align themselves with the divine will, they will not progress beyond a certain level, "enhancers" notwithstanding.

ANTHONY SAID

I entertain Jayne's theory of the bicameral mind, that in the past our brains were not so divided as they are now. Our instinctual ability to 'hear' has been gradually replaced by ration and logic. I think 'enhancers', while not necessary, can serve as a shortcut for some.
_________________
Author of 'Happiness: How to Find It'

AGUEST SAID

I understand what you're both saying, dear Anne and Anthony (peace to you, both!). We are far removed because of how we've been taught to think (which works MARVELOUSLY with regard to the physical world and so should not be discarded or poo-pooed, but actually inhibits when relating to things of the spirit realm).

The thing, though, dear Ant, is that what of when the "enhancer" wears off? Also, what of the giving over of control that enhancers tend to allow? Isn't it better to learn to do it... ummmm... say, "au naturale"... so that one can do it whenever AND maintain full control? Some of us understand that "bad" spirits have no power other than what we give them. Enhancers can allow us to give that control, unconsciously. Which is why a lot of folks who turn to them progress on to mental crisis: they are fine, at first, but one develops a desire to go "deeper and deeper"... perhaps ending up TOO "deep" for their own particular psyche.

Another thing: does not utilizing enhancers to, say, "peer into the deeper things of God", for example, constitute a kind of "breaking in"? I mean, it's apparently a way for some to access that other realm (or realms)... but without going through the Door (Christ). In such case, isn't that a break in (no actual permission given)?

Now, don't get me wrong: I don't have a problem with... ummmmm... medicinal uses of things some use as [spiritual] enhancers. Particularly if it's a natural product of the earth (i.e., cannabis (sp), etc.). To each his/her own, I say. But when used as a method to "enter"... at least mentally... the spirit realm, I dunno. Again, I'm partial to the Door himself and believe that to be the only Way one can enter legitimately.

Of course, there are those who believe there is nothing wrong with entering illegitimately - as a homeowner, though, that bothers me, personally. Just because my window is open doesn't mean you get to crawl through. I have a right to leave my windows open; you though, don't have a right to come through them without MY permission.

All one needs to do is go through Christ, the Door/Narrow Gate... and such will gain FULL access... and legitimately. Indeed, permission for access to EVERY room in the "house"! Entering by some other means, however, puts the person not only at risk of being cast out... but "damaged" on the way! Again, there is plenty of evidence of such "damage" in the world!

Again, peace to you, both... and THANKS for the lovely discussion. I hope it will continue!

Your servant and a slave of Christ,

SA

BURNTHESHIPS SAID

Salvia is some crazy stuff, I don't see how it can really be spiritually enlightening. It is more of a deliriant. Other things, however, really do help your mind pierce the veil. You can receive insights, or visions. And you never forget what you've experienced.

AGUEST SAID

Greetings, dear BTS, peace to you... and welcome! So, you didn't list the "other" stuff. Any reason why not? I mean, besides this being a "family" site 'n all - LOLOLOL!

Peace to you!

A slave of Christ,

SA

LEANN SAID

One of the problems I see with using enhancers is that the validity of the experience or information is easily questioned in ones mind. If you know you used a drug to make the connection than how much can feel like you can trust it. It can always be dismissed as a mind altering experience instead of a connection.

I do believe that people can 'connect' when using, however because of the instability of the relationship with whatever connects, whether positive or negative, I wound never recommend it. I understand why people do, as many people really desire to have the connection and it seems to be the only route that they can find.

Oh and btw is there a spell check available on the posting page? I didnt see one and trust me I need it.

ANTHONY SAID

I've never used except for hospital Demerol, so I have no personal experience. I have read experiences of those who have used psychedelics and they have been pretty confident in their experiences. That is one of the reasons I took note of it instead of dismissing it.
_________________
Author of 'Happiness: How to Find It'

AGUEST SAID

I agree with you, dear LeAnn (peace to you, my dear sister!). I couldn't have expressed it better. With an enhancer, one risks the credibility of the event, IMHO. Not to say events don't occur... just that others are more apt to "excuse" them as products of the enhancer itself, versus the enhancer assisting in the realization of the experience. I mean, I think I know what I stated - LOLOL!

Thanks for that and, again, peace to you!

Your servant, sister, and fellow slave of Christ,

SA

GLADIATOR SAID

Hallucinogenic drugs can indeed induce many curious and bizarre effects. They reduce the restrictive wall between the conscious and unconscious mind. I have tried a few in my time. Now I just enjoy a few drinks, but alcohol is still a drug.

Enhancers cause the right side of the brain to come into play and the more logical, rational mind to step aside. Over the years I have been involved in meditation groups and private meditation. Drugs of any kind, including alcohol, impair the ability of the mind, in as much as they trick the senses. My most vivid and informative dreams and insights had occurred without drugs. Drugs are a short cut, a quick fix. They impair the high quality of insight that the mind can achieve with practice.

The million dollar question is, whether the subconscious mind is a sealed unit or whether it has access to information and contacts outside of itself? Carl Jung believed it does and called it ‘the collective conscience.’ If he was right, does that lead to what is termed a spiritual dimension? The giant step from there is whether such a dimension can be interpreted to mean the existence of a God and beyond that a personal God?

AGUEST SAID



My understanding is that it absolutely has access to information and contacts outside of itself, dear Glad (peace to you!)... and that actually it's more than just a "mind" - it is an entire person, although not flesh with its blood. That "person"... a spirit being... CAN "transcend" the vessel of flesh that enslaves it, but it takes effort, rooted in faith. And not just faith "in" God/Christ... but faith that it can be done. One cannot do what one does not even believe one can do. Once one believes it, one can attempt it.

Because we currently reside in vessels that are DESIGNED to enslave us, though, we tend to let the "beliefs" of that vessel... rather than those of what we are inside it... dictate. Hence, if that vessel "tells" us that only the physical is real... most of us are more apt to "believe" that... and thus limit ourselves TO that.



I haven't heard that there is a collective "conscience" (and man's history would indicate to the contrary, IMHO, given what some "consciences" allow and others do not); however, my understanding is that there is a collective consciousness... a collective awake/sleep that ties us all together... ALL living things, whether they be flesh with its blood (which includes plants and animals, BTW)... or spirit... because it originates from the same Source. And the only separation between that consciousness is that between the living... and the dead. And I don't mean dead as in deceased in the flesh, but dead in that certain ones don't have "life" IN them... and therefore are not able to "access" all that they could with THEIR consciousness.



Again, that depends on whether he meant "conscience" or "conscious." I cannot say as to the former, but certainly, yes, as to the latter. The physical realm is NOT all there is in existence. We are arrogant to even think so. We need only ask ourselves, "Where did the physical realm come FROM?" Many might answer this with, "It didn't come from anywhere; it was always here."

I would counter, though, that one might consider where it GOES... when it leaves here. As in the case of, say, an imploding star. Which is not the same as an exploding planet. In the case of the latter, fragments fly out and become a part of the physical universe. In the former, though... where did the mass/matter that made up the core of that star... "go"? When we think of a building "imploding" (which is really not the same thing), there is still a pile of rubble at the conclusion of the event.

When a star implodes, though, what is said to be left is a "black hole" which is also said to drag everything near into it. Into... "where"? There are some theories on this (wormholes, white holes, etc.), but regardless, what goes into a black hole goes... somewhere (else). It isn't in OUR universe any longer; yet, it is not necessarily destroyed, either.



I am not all that savvy on matters relating to our perceptions of modern cosmology, dear one, so I won't speak further on it, other than to say that this is NOT the only... "realm"... and that this one actually came from another one, "through" something "like" a black hole/white hole/worm hole event... which was created by the massive amount of energy generated when my Lord, the LIGHT, came into existence.

I mean, he IS referred to as "the Daystar", is he not?

Things that make one go "hmmmmmm..."

Again, peace to you!
_________________
Paz a todos!

Su sirviente, compañera de estudios, y un esclava de Cristo,

SA

AGuest “Again, that depends on whether he meant "conscience" or "conscious."

Yes indeed, I meant collective conscious or consciousness. My apologies, these big words always confuse me.

I am inclined to believe that a collective consciousness exists, which led me to an interest in Jung’s work. I have mentioned before that I have had experiences that I cannot deny. Without them I would be sceptical.

As it is I am still open to ideas. I envy your certainty in these matters. I may need more than one lifetime in the flesh to be sure and this one may be all I have.

AGUEST SAID



That's the thing those like myself, dear tec (peace to you!), JustMom, and many others mean, dear Glad (the greatest of love and peace to you!): experiences we just cannot deny. For instance, for me, it's hearing and seeing my Lord. I don't have a brain tumor, so... And I'm relatively intelligent. And... toward the end of and particularly since the WTBTS... healthily skeptical.

But for ME, denying these experiences would be like me denying I am a woman or black. I mean, I can try to deny both but I don't think I would succeed... as to others OR myself.

Thank you for your openness and honesty here, dear one. Again, peace to you... and may JAH bless!
_________________
Paz a todos!

Su sirviente, compañera de estudios, y un esclava de Cristo,

SA