xjwsforChrist

SOFT + GENTLE SAID

some thoughtful points were made on the thread on JWN but the thread has now gone - there was a storm brewing there and maybe this is why it has disappeared.


One point that stood out to me is that unconditional love describes an ideal to have in mind whilst acknowledging that it is near impossible to practice in real life?

CRIMINY SAID



I didn't open that thread on JWN but the comment above makes sense. Love has limits. Love can be destroyed, I have found out. Despite the rumors, love does NOT endure all things.

Not ALL things.

Love can make you tolerate a lot. Put up with much. Forgive almost endlessly. But there comes a point when you have taken all you can take and just walk away without any feelings for those people at all.
_________________
I could'a been a bug.

LEANN SAID

It can take our entire life to understand love, and by the time we are starting to catch on how to use it, we lose our physical body to express it.

Love and wisdom exist together.

I understand what you are saying criminy.. I do wonder sometimes that in such a case, that love is not lost, but in pain. The pain causes us to patch up the hole and leaves a scar that withstand the injury, causing our sensitivity to be lost.

PAULSACRAMENTO SAID

Unconditonal love is a GOAL for humans but I am not sure we can ever get there, though we can get close.
That kind of love is what Paul described in 1Corinthians and they type of love that gives ALL and asks for nothing in return.
Love based on what we do for others and NOT what they do for us.
We come closest to it as parents.

AGUEST SAID

Greetings, dear S+G, and peace to you! I would like to share on this with regard to what I received from my Lord, the Holy One of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah), if I may; unfortunately, it's a bit so please bear with me, if you can? Thank you!

Many tout "unconditional" love as the kind of love that God has. With one exception*, I have never seen or nor heard, however, where God's love is unconditional. To the contrary, actually, my understanding is that His love is absolutely conditional, only not on the basis that, say, our love is conditional. His [conditional] love never fails, however. When it is lost, it is because OUR love (for Him) failed.

Let me share some examples:

"Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him." John 14:21

"[Jesus] said to him: “If anyone loves me, he will observe my word, and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make our abode with him." John 14:23

Here, in order for the Father to love such one... and for the Father and the Christ to come and dwell in that "one"... that one has to love Christ, which love is manifest by observing Christ's word (and so, not necessarily, say, Paul's word. Or Peter's. Etc.). so that in order for God to MANIFEST His love by dwelling IN in one, a condition must be met, yes? Thus, if one does NOT listen to Christ... which indicates one does not LOVE Christ... then one will not receive the indwelling by God and Christ. Right? Which one WOULD receive because of God's love FOR that one... FOR loving Christ. Right?

The problem comes in as to what WE believe "love" is, which we often manifest in certain deeds that APPEAR to be love, "look like" love, but when actually investigated, is not love. For example with faith, which is NOT what religion often leads us to believe.

For example some might thing that constantly giving gifts is a show of love. And such well could be. But the motive BEHIND such is more telling as to whether love is involved, than the gift itself. Right? For example, say, a spouse who is a repeat batterer... or verbal berater... who constantly tries to undo his/her acts by giving the battered/berated spouse gifts. Is that really love? Or is it actually an attempt to cover over/hide what has been done while appeasing his/her own guilt? Wouldn't the real gift be NO battering/berating to begin with... or at least, to stop battering/berating... especially when asked? Wouldn't it be to treat the other spouse as such one himself/herself wants to BE treated... at all times? Wouldn't THAT truly be a "gift" of love?

Love doesn't always have a outward appearance, however. For example, some might wonder, "If God SO loved the world, why does He let innocent children die? Why does He allow wars, crime, etc.? If He TRULY loves the world, why doesn't He step in and DO something about all of the "bad" we see going on? Why doesn't He bless me with...??"

The answer is simple but not always received: He already did. He already showed His love... by giving His Son as a sacrifice FOR the world.* And before most who will benefit from it ever came into existence.

Sure, He could rain down prosperity on us, but is that truly a manifestation of His love? Given what Christ (and many humans who've experienced it) say about the risks, perils, and temptations of wealth, I would venture to say no (of course, I know everyone here would be able to handle it AND keep their relationship with God/Christ, even if Christ warned differently - LOL!). I would say that that would be a manifestation of His desire to be "liked", however, rather than a manifestation of HIS love. As perhaps with a parent who showers their child(ren) with the "latest" whatever... so the child(ren) will consider them "cool", will "like" them. Give these gifts now... but have little else to give them later.

But that's not a TRUE manifestation of love - that's just an attempt to ward off bad feelings, exchange them for popularity, convince oneself that one is loving, etc. Because love can (and does, when warranted) say "no", or "not yet"... "because it is not what's BEST for you." Just as well as it can say, "Yes" and "Sure thing"...

Showering us with gifts, then, while seeming "loving" at the time, can never add up to giving us life, though, and certainly not life eternal. Which is the gift God gave... when He gave His Son. No other gift(s) can compare or add up. So His one great [eternal] gift far, far exceeds a plethora of smaller, temporary "gifts." Unfortunately, many don't see that... because we are beings of instant gratification. We want our gifts NOW, the future be hanged.

The gift of eternal life, then, is based on love; however, while it IS free, it is NOT unconditional. There is a condition: loving Christ. And THAT love (of Christ) can be manifested directly... by loving and listening to Christ directly... or by loving those who belong to him, which also includes listening to him:

"‘... he will say, in turn, to those on his left, ‘Be on ​YOUR​ way from me, ​YOU​ who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels. For I became hungry, but ​YOU​ gave me nothing to eat, and I got thirsty, but ​YOU​ gave me nothing to drink. I was a stranger, but ​YOU​ did not receive me hospitably; naked, but ​YOU​ did not clothe me; sick and in prison, but ​YOU​ did not look after me.’ Then they also will answer with the words, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them with the words, ‘Truly I say to ​YOU, To the extent that ​YOU​ did not do it to one of these least ones, ​YOU​ did not do it to me.’ And these will depart into everlasting cutting‐off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life.” Matthew 25:41-46

We keep trying to "see" God through our own understanding. As a result, we end up with not only with a skewed vision of Him, but of ourselves. We want to make a "God loves all, so ALL will live, etc." paradigm, because just the thought of the possibility that those we love, perhaps even we ourselves, might NOT receiving the gift of [eternal] life as inconceivable. However, it is NOT God's choice that some don't receive that gift, nor is it His choice not to love [us]; it is our/such one's choice.

WE choose (not God chooses for us)... blessing (the gift of eternal life)... or curse (of eternal death, which curse we ALL inherit). WE choose: life... or death. For ourselves and for our children. (Acts 2:39) True, God through Christ chooses his king-priest co-rulers, but that's all. It is up to all of US to CHOOSE life... regardless of where we might ultimately be in the kingdom (king/priest or subject)... because we, all of us, have been cursed.

The "condition" to God's love, then... and the gift of life for those He does love... is loving Christ... and/or those who belong to him. Since we don't know who belongs to Christ, however (although we can know who does NOT)... it behooves us to love ALL. Such love can be manifest by, for example, "Look, while I may not worship with you, or follow the god YOU follow... I will feed, clothe, shelter, and/or care for you if/when you need me to and I am able. Because of my love for YOU, which I don't necessarily have for your god." That was the "righteousness" of the Good Samaritan.

The unconditional part of God's love (and Christ's) is that the Son was given for ALL. ANYONE can eat of his flesh and drink his blood... and receive life. Not just fleshly Israel/Jews. The conditional part, however, is that only those OF that "all" who love the Son (which includes loving those who belong to him) ultimately benefit from it.

I hope this helps and, again, I bid you peace!
_________________
Paz a todos!

Su sirviente, compañera de estudios, y un esclava de Cristo,

SA

SOFT + GENTLE SAID

thanks everyone for your comments.

Powerful drama on television this week - A Mother's Son. For me it dramatises unconditional love as expressed by a parent.
has anyone here watched it?

GLADIATOR SAID

This is an interesting thread Soft+gentle . I appreciate your post AGuest and the realistic attitude you have towards love, in particular God’s love.

To me all love is conditional. We may love our children unconditionally but not be aware that the condition is that they are our children. We may love all children unconditionally because they are children, which is again a condition.

Love is based on the personal values we hold and live by. Find out what a person values and there is where their love will be. The fact that someone will die for another does not make love unconditional. Someone who is willing to die for another, even a stranger, is acting in accordance with the values they hold. The mind is very powerful and can place living up to values or deeply held beliefs above preserving the life of oneself or others.

If love is based on false values the result can be disastrous. Suicide bombers are living by their own values and believe they are showing love for God. To die for someone we love has long been held as an honour.

We are not always aware why we act as we do, but the subconscious mind acts to prompt us with strong emotions to act in harmony with the values we have accepted deep within our self. We will only show unconditional love if our action of loving is in harmony with our values.

Just wanted to throw my coin in the ring. Morituri te salutant (those who are about to die salute you)

PAULSACRAMENTO SAID

It seems we may have to quantify "unconditional".
To me, unconditional love means loving IN SPITE of what the other does to "deserve" that love not because of it.
Loving because we are loved is conditional and fickle since it is based not on love but on BEING loved.
That is, however, how humans typically behave towards themselves.
If God behaves the same way than He is hardly superior to humans.

I love my kids regardless of how well they behave or even if they love me back.
I would die for them gladly and kill to protect them reluctantly.
I love them this way because I brought them into this world out of an act of love and I will love them 100% till the day I die, and beyond because they, being a symbol of love, deserve no less.
So, to agree in part with Glad, yes it is a conditional love BUT not a love based on conditions and as such, I view it as unconditional under my view of what "unconditional love" means.

AGUEST SAID



Exactly, dear Glad (peace to you!). Thanks for that additional clarification! Of course, it applies as to God, does it not, because it is His children... vs. "the children of the Devil"... that ultimately benefit from His love?




But is this accurate, dear P (peace to you, as well!)? For example, there is no forgiveness for blasphemy against holy spirit. Thus, one cannot be a blasphemer (against holy spirit) to receive/benefit from God's love... right? Which means avoiding blasphemy is a condition...

My understanding is that the comment "love never fails" is with regard to when it IS love; however, there are situations where there can be no love... because no place is allowed for it. For example, we are supposed to love even our enemies. Is not the Adversary our enemy? How can we love him, though? What about "the last enemy," death - how can we love that enemy? We can't.

And so, even OUR love is conditional. We cannot be loving "the world or the things IN the world," right?

"Unconditional" love is a man-made ideal, dear one

BTW, I will openly admit that MY love of MY children is conditional. Once they cross the line into, say, heinous conduct KNOWINGLY AND WILLING committed (i.e., serial murder, serial child abuse/molestation, unfeeling torture... and any other "malicious" conduct NOT the result of mental illness but simply a "hard" heart)... I would have no choice but to revoke my love. I simply could not let them even think I condone IN ANY WAY such conduct toward others. I would, of course, try to talk to them, try to get them the BEST help, no matter the cost... but if they showed themselves to be like some out there... whose "sickness" is born of, say, anger/hatred/contempt at/for others, etc., then I believe I would have to "hate" them in return.

That's just me, of course - I am sure others feel differently. Some might even say, "Well, I might hate what they DO/DID, but I wouldn't hate them!" I would have to beg God's forgiveness, though, because in all honesty I confess to you dear ones that I would hate such a child. Even rather them dead than they kill yet another. At least in that situation I could perhaps appeal to my Lord and my Father to "passover" their judgment on him/her. But I certainly wouldn't want to risk MY child killing yet another of someone else's... who deserves to live.

I also have "conditions" on my love for, say, my spouse - no other women and no other abuse. While my agape and philea love may not fail, my eros love certainly would.

Sorry, but that's just my truth. Don't expect anyone else to understand or agree with it.

Peace!

A slave of Christ,

SA, keepin' it real over here...

P.S. Of course, if my children who so displayed a "hard" heart as above TURNED AROUND... my love would return and in full force and effect. Just as the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, always did... and still does now... with Israel. HIS love didn't fail - THEIRS' did, and so didn't allow PLACE for His. Same with my children. Peace!

JUSTMOM SAID

Hello

and thank you for sharing your honesty aguest I hear what you are saying!

A verse on this topic I heard yesterday was Hebrews 8:8,9
"Jah said, there are days coming and I will conclude with the house of Israel and Judah a new covenant, not according to the covenant that I made with their forefathers in the day of my taking hold of their hand to bring them forth out of the land of Egypt, because THEY did not continue in my covenant, so that I STOPPED CARINGfor them, says Jah."

So it was because of "THEM"that Jah discontinued his love/care for them.

But because Jah loves Israel because of his love for Abraham, when we they do repent and turn around and ask for healing, he always opens his hand out to us, foregives us and loves us again.

Remember it is ALWAYS US that puts up the barrier/block from His Love.
Love Justmom