xjwsforChrist

BURNS SAID



I'm not sure it is a sin, or that the Church's teaching in the matter is the best one.

However, the Holy See does not support discrimination against homosexual people, or the criminalization of their behavior.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/secre ... on_en.html

Up until the high middle ages, the Church had precious little to say regarding homosexuality. There was even a ritual where two men could form a life bond. Then Europe started burning witches, exiling Jews, kicking women out of universities--and criminalizing homosexuality.

CHARIKLO SAID

Hmmm. I'm not sure that kicking women out of universities is the same type of activity as exiling Jews or burning witches. All were products of their age.

Nor is that exclusion of women academically universal. Catherine of Siena, in the fourteenth century, was a noted theologian, later recognised as a Doctor of the Church. And before her, Heloise was every bit as much of a scholar as Peter Abelard.

In any case, the early universities were embryonic, and very loose collections of scholars that only later truly became organised as universities. Yes, in the seventeenth centuriy there was a marked change in attitude towards women, a kind of reaction to the idealisation of the High Middle Ages which set them as if on pedestals.

Exactly why and how these "mood swings" occur more or less worldwide in a kind of apparently disconnected and random synchronicity is a very interesting subject, which is being studied extensively by scholars and scientists.

CHAPPY SAID


I heard about that ritual! I wanted to research it deeper, to make sure it wasn't a bit of propaganda.

My friend asked me to watch a documentary called The Burning Times, and it brought out some very interesting things about the witch burnings, and I think, some can be extrapolated into other areas.

When people die, crops go bad, people burn witches. Rome had fallen, we entered a Manorial (Some incorrectly call it Feudal) system, and the Black Plague hit depleting the population severely. Now the odd thing about the Plague, is women survived more often than men. I don't know why, but they had a better chance. Populations would become uneven as to gender, more women were growing older and single and gaining some power of their own because of it (think crones) and Europe entered the mini-ice age, so land that was once fertile no longer yielded crops. Perhaps this also had an effect on the view of homosexuality---with a shortage of men and a seriously depleted population? Also, when Rome withdrew from outlaying areas, they took a lot of literacy with them, and an illiterate population is more susceptible to superstition.

I don't know how it all links, but I find it fascinating and wish to look into it more. Much of what I stated above is just me thinking.

CHARIKLO SAID

The burning of witches was part of what was happening at that time, in the seventeenth century, at the very least right across Northern Europe and in America too, where of course there was the Salem Witches affair.

Six years ago I was in Iceland. In the famous Rift Valley between two continental plates, Thingvellir, there is a river that twists and turns and forms pools and lakes and waterfalls. One pool is commemorated as being the place where witches were drowned, the details on a plaque, with the dates. I don't now remember the exact dates but I think they were roughly from maybe 1630/40 to about 1715, the same time period as the burnings across all of Europe. That was the time of the notorious Witchfinder General, Matthew Hopkins, who pursued and sought out poor women in East Anglia. All that was necessary for him was to find any woman, usually but not always a spinster or a widow, who had something like a mole or small raised mark of some source. That would then be cited as "proof" of her "suckling" a demon.

Jehovah's Witnesses are the modern day successors of the witch-hunters. The Witnesses I knew lived in fear of encountering "demons".

CHAPPY SAID

As a JW, I wasn't very worried about demons. It used to really annoy me when people would tell their demon stories. Maybe I wasn't a 'good' JW, but I just didn't concern myself much.

We had a woman in our territory that was a 'witch' probably Wiccan or even just some form of Pagan, and they used to freak out in the car not wanting to knock on her door. I would roll my eyes and offer. It just didn't scare me.

When I think about my very vivid experiences with sleep paralysis, seeing flames, flashing lights, floating, humanoid faces. rocking, shaking, buzzing----

You'd think that as a JW I would have concluded demons, especially with the little dancing devils in front of the TV, LOL, but I just didn't. I mostly didn't hang with people that got all worked up about that kind of stuff. It was hard to keep my mouth shut.

I let my daughter watch Smurfs, and because I LOVED Casper the Friendly Ghost as a child (the cartoon) when the movie came out I rented it for my daughter and got counseled. I didn't see the danger. Ah well. No more harmful than Disney in my mind!

The Salem trials were strongly driven by politics. I was quite surprised to learn this. They took advantage of superstition to get people out of the way. When a 'witch' was executed, their families lost the property. Quite handy, since 2 families had set up against each other and were feuding over some things.

BURNS SAID



Chappy, between Rome and these events (the Plague, witch burnings, etc), we are talking almost 1000 years. I don't think there is a causal connection between the fall of Rome and these things. Besides, the last couple of Roman centuries were worse for the average Joe or Jane than the times that followed them.

BURNS SAID

I'll add that, yeah, the trauma of the Black Plague probably influenced a lot of things.

And the mini ice age.

CHAPPY SAID



No, no, I'm not looking at it as one event, or even several events. I'm trying to see the thread as it unfolded---and of course that took many years. So not one thing compared to one thing, but how it all unfolded to get us to where they were.

Also, during the 'dark ages', while they weren't as 'dark' as once thought, there did seem to be a static time when things didn't change as much as we would expect, so one set of circumstances could linger.

I'm really enjoying this---maybe I'll find a way to make a coherent thesis and do a research paper on it and get a grade!

As I said, those were some random thoughts, not necessarily chronological or definitely connected, but as I looked into things, I found a very complex story, so I want to look more.

CHAPPY SAID

Yes, the mini-ice age and the plague which came and went.

THEN if you add to that any wars, which would have depleted the males in the population, causing more women to age single, and therefore have a bit more power, it can be another factor.

Of course, these (mostly) women weren't really witches, but simply women with folk knowledge and likely still ascribing to some of the Pagan practices which were traditional, and also still quite popular amongst the common people, so it was called witchcraft when the Pagansim/Christianity battles started.

CHARIKLO SAID

Chappy, have you read "The Witch Hunt in early modern Europe", by Brian Levack? Also

"the Mediaeval Underworld" by Andrew McCall. "Witch, Wicca, Mother Goose: the Rise and Fall of the Witch Hunts in Europe and North America" by Robert Thurston. "A Brief History of Witchcraft" by Lois Martin.

I think a Witchcraft Act is still in existence in the UK. Its last use as far as I know was in 1944, though it has been used as a threat since then. However, there are active "witches" everywhere. I know several personally. Nice, interesting people with a strange chilly penchant for taking off their clothes!

CHAPPY SAID


No, but I'll put them on my list. One of my oldest friends considers herself a witch in the Wiccan tradition. She is also a midwife, which makes it even more fun. We used to work together a lot at births, and I was with her when her last child was born.

So she was always interested in herbs and natural healing, but then I started studying with JW's and she was going another way. We still got along well, but it turns out she wasn't fully honest with me about her Pagan interests. We didn't talk for a couple of years, and I got together with her after I left the JW's. She told me she still remembers this day when I walked in her house, and she had herbs hanging EVERYWHERE from the ceiling. I had cracked, "you look like a witch!" She said she was laughing inside, cuz that's exactly the direction she was heading. I remember it too!

Anyway, she has taken to calling me her little green witch, because she insists I'm witchy and always have been, but I corrected her and said she didn't mean that word with a "W". When I called to tell her I left the WT, she said, "Welcome home, sister!" Yeah, she has high hopes for me, but you know me well enough to know I'm not gonna become a witch. If it is true, LOL, and there is something witchy about me, let's just hopes it works to my benefit with no input from me!

I CAN do a mean witcy eye makeup design though, and it goes good with some of those flowy, pagan like clothes! LOL

BURNS SAID

BURN HER!

CHAPPY SAID


Freaking Catholics!

AGUEST SAID

My most favorite movie addresses what you dear folks (peace to you all!). It's really good and the soundtrack is AWESOME! Check it out:

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dangerous_Beauty)

Peace!

A slave of Christ,

SA

YPPUPLLEH SAID

Question: What is God's view on homosexuality.

Hellpuppy answer: I don't know
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Love is a warm rubber puppy...