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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:04 pm 
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CHAPPY SAID

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Homosexuality is a noun and therefore a THING. IMO, this would indicate it's inclusion in John 1:3 where is states all THINGS were made though the Word.


Interesting take, Sab. I was thinking about it. Sin is also a thing. It is a verb, but it is also a noun.

Does the same reasoning hold up?

Never looked at it that way.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:04 pm 
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SAB SAID

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Does the same reasoning hold up?


Hello Chappy, it does indeed hold up. Christ as the Originator of the world is the force behind Cause and Effect. Sin as defined by the ill causes and their effects WAS created for the purposes of instruction. We live in the "Karmic World" or the world of free will. Which means that we can choose to observe the results of our actions or not. We can choose to step on others or we can coexist and collaborate with them, it's always up to us.

Responsible parents will always tell their children not to touch fire or very hot things, but most if not all kids will test out the claim themselves. They are free to do this because it WILL teach them. Even though this is a simple example the same principle goes for all suffering which is caused by a lack of understanding of one's external environment. You and I pay for the sins of our fathers because we cannot escape the natural laws of cause and effect which they set into motion before we even existed.

-Sab
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:04 pm 
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CHAPPY SAID


Okay. So you are saying that all things, including sin, came from God, the same as homosexuality, which is a thing, comes from God?

Thinking along those lines, God would have created sin, but does not want us to sin? So he could have also created homosexuality and not wanted us to practice it?

You know I don't have an issue with homosexuality, and don't ascribe to the notion of 'sin', but I'm finding your reasoning difficult to follow.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:05 pm 
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AGUEST SAID

Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:53 am Post subject:
As I am sure you can guess, our knowledge and understanding of God and Christ are quite different, dear Sab (as always, peace to you, dear one!)... which is okay. I think this is because how you and I each see and hear him is different. I don't mean how we each view or perceive him... or view his words as recorded in the Bible... but how we see and hear him, literally (John 10:27; 14:21).

I see... and hear... a person who is very much alive, the firstborn FROM the dead, indeed One on whom death (and so Death) had NO hold at all. So... he can't BE dead... which means I am not talking to him as I would dead person, nor he me. My parents are dead. Dead. I don't talk to them. Why? Because I know that by means of death they are sleeping... and so can't hear me (lest I wake them up... and I am not permitted to use my gifts to do that, so... But they are not destroyed, and so my hope for reunification with them remains intact.).

My Lord, on the other hand is not sleeping at all. Indeed, he is not only alive and awake... but WORKING (Psalm 110:2; 1 Corinthians 15:25; Hebrews 4:12, 13; Revelation 6:2). How, though, can he be working TODAY... if he only uses instructions that pertained to people close to 2,000 years ago? Wouldn't he have to be able to communicate how such would apply TO today? He would... and he does. Directly, for those with faith to hear him (Matthew 28:20b, John 10:3-5; 27), not through the pages of an ancient book (the Torah or otherwise) - John 5:39, 40.

So, we're going to have to agree to disagree on these matters, such that we do. I'm sure that's okay, though, right?

Peace!

YOUR servant (always), and a slave of Christ,

SA


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:05 pm 
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PSACRAMENTO SAID

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The act of pedophilia is a sin because it always results in suffering. That act specifically meets the criteria of the Greek word "path'os" which means giving into lust which results in suffering. It means a depraved passion and homosexuality and bisexuality do not meet that criteria just as heterosexuality doesn't.


Careful about the definition dude.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:05 pm 
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SAB SAID

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Thinking along those lines, God would have created sin, but does not want us to sin? So he could have also created homosexuality and not wanted us to practice it?


I am saying that sin is a bad thing, it's an instructional thing. It all depends on how you approach it. Take shame, fear and guilt for instance. They all can be described as "bad" emotions, but yet they all serve a very needed purpose.

You don't ask why the out of bounds line exists in sports matches for instance. The rules are set so that the game can be played. Without boundaries there is no game, without sin there is no life because we will not learn anything. We are children of God and that means we have a very special path through sentience.

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You know I don't have an issue with homosexuality, and don't ascribe to the notion of 'sin', but I'm finding your reasoning difficult to follow. Very Happy


Neither do I. The sin would be a heterosexual acting gay and a homosexual acting straight. Both are lying to themselves and others which comes with detrimental effects which constitutes sin. If there are no ill effects the action CEASES to be sin.

-Sab
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:06 pm 
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SAB SAID

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So, we're going to have to agree to disagree on these matters, such that we do. I'm sure that's okay, though, right?


Shelby, I respect and honor your perspective on God. To me we are a species designed to disagree, it's part of the learning process. Never hold back on telling me what you regard to be self-evident truth no matter what it contradicts. To me Christ is a unique Spirit who rules over all of reality. It's amazing how compatible our ideas are WHILE also being at odds. I find it fascinating.

-Sab
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:06 pm 
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QUENTIN SAID

"Homosexuality is NOT normal... it is a deviant behavior because it deviates from the norm"

What is the "norm"? Dressing in womens cloths and allowing your wife to spank you. Are you a "sadist, or a masochist in your sex life? What of the "sex" that you engage in; oral, anal, master and slave.

Notice that ANY of these questions can apply to hetro's or, homo's.

Eating a dog is considered a tasty meal among some oriental groups. Pilot asked "What is truth?" Just what is "the norm?"
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:06 pm 
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MEDEWTYSENU SAID

Greetings:

What is normal? People say Homosexuality is not normal, yet it has been actively practiced for thousands of years and is acceptable in many countries though currently not in the USA because of the influence of the Roman Catholic Church that has said it's not normal and is a sin against God, this being due mostly because of their lack of understanding of the scriptures and God's Mercy.
To me the subject of the rightness/wrongness of Homosexuality is the same as Slavery, no equal rights for women and all other forms of racism/bigotry. People have used the Bible (though not in context) as a means to propagate these forms of suffering upon others and have effectively slandered God's Holy Name for which they will have to render an account.

At one time many religious leaders said it was quite correct for slavery to be practiced in this country, yet they forget that the Bible doesn't promote slavery at all. It simply introduced laws that regulated something that already existed when the Hebrews came out of Egypt. God saw that his people were already practicing slavery or that some because of financial hardships might enter into indentured servitude to pay off a debt, but when this was done they still had certain rights. If a finger was lost or an eye was gouged out then the slave was to be set free. In the USA slaves were viewed as property and less than farm animals. This is not a Biblical view.

Women were treated as less than equal for many years until the Suffrage Movement changed many of those things (though not all). Yet many religious people will say a woman's place is in the home, without a job or income of her own. However many of the laws given to the Hebrews were for themselves alone as they existed in a covenant relationship with God. People who cite those scriptures oftentimes forget that that relationship no longer exists and those women had particular protections under the Law from abusive relationships, which wasn't the case in the USA before the Suffrage Movement or even now for that matter.

Then we have the issue of Homosexuality. What is normal? Who is to say what is normal? The Bible doesn't really speak on the issue. Some might say that it was Adham and Eve and not Adham and Steve, yet that's simply making a mockery of the issue and not really addressing it.

What does history have to say about this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality#History

The following link shows many differing attitudes and that in many cultures is was either condemned, accepted or ignored. In the USA it's really only because of religious influence has it gained a stigma as something wrong.

Let's look at it in a biological sense, that is to say that which God created within us.
It's a long article that I will simply link and people can read/reply to at their leisure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_an ... rientation

One thing becomes clear though is that biologically speaking there are many factors that seem to indicate this is not deviant behavior at all, but something natural but our own tendency to categorize everything into good/evil has made homosexuality something to be detested by many religious people. In the end (no pun intended) it's really none of our business unless we ourselves are Homosexual. This is between the individual and God and not something any of us, no matter our personal viewpoint should be judging another for adversely. If Gays want the constitutional right to marry, then so be it. Why does it concern me? It doesn't.

Then we have the very touchy subject of Pedophilia.
The following link describes what it is. I will say up front I am not advocating this behavior, merely discussing it in a reasonable manner without becoming emotionally involved.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia

What I found interesting is that what constitutes a "child" really isn't addressed. Historically Mary (the Mother of Jesus) was 13 years old when she married Joseph, yet her husband was in his thirties. This would make Joseph (by modern standards) a Pedophile.

"n ancient Israel, girls married in their teens, even early teens. [2] For Mary to be betrothed (engaged) but not yet formally married, yet old enough to have and nurse the Messiah, she would have been 12-14. The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible points out, “It appears that both boys and girls were married very young. Later [after the New Testament period] the rabbis fixed the minimum age for marriage at twelve for girls and thirteen for boys.” [3]"

http://www.truthortradition.com/iphone/ ... &Itemid=59

So what constitutes a child? In the US a child is anyone under the age of 18 years of age. However many of us know that maturity is not based upon physical age. In other cultures maturity is defined at different ages. So Pedophilia is not so well defined after all. Also it has been a practice for many thousands of years. This doesn't make it correct. I suspect in order to adequately address this subject we must define exactly what constitutes a child. So I will say a child is anyone who has not reached sexual maturity (the ability to procreate) which is different depending upon the sex of the individual and or certain environmental factors which may not exist elsewhere.

In the US if anyone under 18 years of age has sexual relations with someone of the same age, no law has been broken. However if someone under 18 has sex with someone who is over 18, either by many years or just one day, then it's statutory rape and they can be prosecuted for it (at least here in South Carolina). Yet the laws vary state by state.

In ancient Israel if the husband died then the Brother of said husband would be obligated to take his surviving wife as his own to continue the family line. In some people's eyes this would be a form of incest since they were already related by marriage or blood (if children were involved) yet is was acceptable.

What I am getting at is people often make the mistake of applying our modern standards to Biblical examples without considering them in their proper context. In ancient times people didn't live as long as they do now (because of advances in medicine) so people married at a much younger age. Also it must be remembered because many families do not live together (as in ancient times) there is less interdependence upon each other for survival. The mortality rate for children was quite high and many children died in childbirth. Recall that Jesus himself was "wrapped in swaddling which besides making sure an infant's limbs grew straight also seemed to be a preventive measure against SIDS (Sudden Infant Death Syndrome) which is caused by babies rolling over and suffocating. Swaddling would prevent this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swaddling

It's likely that Mary did this as a preventive measure for the welfare of Jesus because she was quite aware of the huge responsibility laid upon her to care for Jesus until he reached adulthood.

So my point here is that we make the mistake of not factoring in maturity vs age and not considering the times in which people lived.

In my own viewpoint no one should have sexual relations until they are in their thirties as biologically/mentally they have most likely reached maturity. It's been said that between the ages of 18-29 people undergo the most physical as well as mental changes so that the person they were at 18 no longer exists when they reach their thirties. for this reason alone I feel that we would have less of a problem with childless parents or child abandonment. As it is though what constitutes a child varies from culture to culture and geographic region. It also depends upon the maturity of the individuals involved and consent.

So as stated previously..what constitutes a child? Is it age, sexual maturity or law?

YSand FSofC
Morgan
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:08 pm 
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PSACRAMENTO SAID

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quentin wrote:
"Homosexuality is NOT normal... it is a deviant behavior because it deviates from the norm"

What is the "norm"? Dressing in womens cloths and allowing your wife to spank you. Are you a "sadist, or a masochist in your sex life? What of the "sex" that you engage in; oral, anal, master and slave.

Notice that ANY of these questions can apply to hetro's or, homo's.

Eating a dog is considered a tasty meal among some oriental groups. Pilot asked "What is truth?" Just what is "the norm?"


A fair enough question.
Normal can be either via cultural context or societal context or it can be based on the definition of thr word:


nor·mal
[nawr-muhl] Show IPA
adjective
1.
conforming to the standard or the common type; usual; not abnormal; regular; natural.
2.
serving to establish a standard.

4.
Biology, Medicine/Medical .
a.
free from any infection or other form of disease or malformation, or from experimental therapy or manipulation.
b.
of natural occurrence.

Sexually speaking, since the purpose of the sex act is procreation then, homosexuality is not the norm.

I know that sometimes words carry a negative connotation because of what WE have used them for, but what the term means is clear.

IF we look at sex from the point of view of culture and society, it is still not the standard or common type of sexual activity, in any culture.
If we look at it from a biological point of view, what sex is for ( not why we have it), it is not the norm either.

Now, does homosexuality happen in nature as some suggest?
No, not really but what does happen is bisexuality.
In Nature any species that is homosexual will die out unless sex is NOT the mode used for procreation of course.
Of course there are many things that are naturally occurring in nature that we would agree is NOT and Should not be the "norm" for Humans.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:08 pm 
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PSACRAMENTO SAID

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What is normal? People say Homosexuality is not normal, yet it has been actively practiced for thousands of years and is acceptable in many countries though currently not in the USA because of the influence of the Roman Catholic Church that has said it's not normal and is a sin against God, this being due mostly because of their lack of understanding of the scriptures and God's Mercy.


Careful there, that is a tricky and slippery slope you are on...
Just because something IS practiced and has been for centuries doesn't mean it is correct or beneficial or something that is to be accepted.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:08 pm 
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SAB SAID

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So as stated previously..what constitutes a child? Is it age, sexual maturity or law?


Sexual maturity is not the only factor to consider. In the ancient times woman had little means to fend for themselves, they simply required men to exist. Therefore it's reasonable to get a girl a loving and protective husband as soon as she reaches sexual maturity. There were practical reasons for this. Such would be the concerns of loving parents.

However, now we live in the modern world where women are considered equals to men on all fronts. A sociological precedent has been set which means women rights are fought for rather than ignored. Gone are the times when husbandry is the first priority for women. This new world actually fits more in line more with Genesis 1 and less with Genesis 3 which has the fallen version of the masculine and feminine aspects of humanity. Once a human becomes sexually active their brain chemistry is forever altered. This is a natural process that can be artificially and prematurely induced.

It would be unfair to call Joseph a pedophile because he married Mary at 13. She, like any girl in her time, required protection from the rigors of a fallen man-centric world.

The question shouldn't be "what is a child?", but rather "is the child being harmed?" Like men and women, children have innate rights as well because they are human. They should be protected from harm that they are vulnerable to. While pedophilia may be a sexual orientation just as homosexuality, bisexuality and heterosexuality, there is NO WAY to mitigate the suffering caused by pedophilia. It simply cannot be surmounted and therefore pedophiles should be put through some sort of psychological process to neutralize their sexual cravings. Science may even find a way to alter sexual orientation. It would then become a choice instead of a random assortment of genetics and experiences.

Pedophilia is a sin because it causes widespread disaster of the mind in both the abuser and the abused.

-Sab
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:09 pm 
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AGUEST SAID

Man's thoughts are not God's thoughts (peace to you all!)... and so what we might consider "normal"... or "abnormal"... may not be what HE considers such. We consider lying "normal" and for us perhaps it is ("Everyone does it!"). However, deceit is NOT "normal" in the eyes of God. We might consider letting our children "back talk" as normal; however, I don't the MOST Holy One of Israel considers it as such.

We might consider "abnormal," however, something HE considers normal - like speaking the TRUTH... even when others can't/won't/don't receive it and believe you should speak in a way that is acceptable to THEM... and makes it easier for you to "go along" (so as to "get along").

We can know what's normal to man (usually based on beliefs and culture) by simply looking at man (and the manifestation of his beliefs and culture). How, though, can we know what's normal to GOD? Easy-peasy, dear ones: look at HIM. And how do we do THAT? By looking at His "image"... the One He SENT to show us Himself:

His Son, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah).

Not at Paul... not at "Moses"... not at the Old Law.

At Christ... and the NEW Law.

Look at him... and you see God. HEAR him, so as to have HIS mind on matters such as this... rather than lean upon your own understanding... and through it, LEARN the mind of God.

It's really that simple, dear ones. I mean, I know some like to "discuss" and "debate", even opine... and that's okay. In the end, though, what do any of US... TRULY know?

I hope this helps. Because talking about the truth isn't what gets you to it or helps you know it. LOOKING at the Truth... and listening to what that One says... will. By and through him... and the holy spirit HE grants... you truly CAN be led... into ALL truth. Even as to matters such as this.

Peace!

YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

SA


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:09 pm 
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PSACRAMENTO SAID

Well Said Shel
As much as we like to "pontificate", the fact is man does NOT know the mind of God.
Christ said that it was by loving one another that we would be know as His followers and God's children.
I see nothing wrong with that.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:09 pm 
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CHARIKLO SAID

You hit the nail right on the head, Shelby.

God gave us the means by which to know him. His Son.


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