xjwsforChrist

SAB SAID

Homosexuality is a noun and therefore a THING. IMO, this would indicate it's inclusion in John 1:3 where is states all THINGS were made though the Word.

If homosexuality was NOT created by the Word, then how is it's existence explained within theology? A lot of people simply claim it the work of the devil. But science shows that it's a natural product of evolution and we should EXPECT to see it in our species. Evolution as a creative force cannot belong to the devil, it must belong to God.

Why would God create homosexuality and then ban it in Scripture? Surely, the opposition to homosexuality throughout the ages has been the simple folly of man.

-Sab
_________________
It only ends once everything else is just progress - Jacob, LOST

AGUEST SAID

What did Christ say about it, dear Sab?

Peace to you!

YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

SA

PSACRAMENTO SAID

sabastious wrote:
Homosexuality is a noun and therefore a THING. IMO, this would indicate it's inclusion in John 1:3 where is states all THINGS were made though the Word.

If homosexuality was NOT created by the Word, then how is it's existence explained within theology? A lot of people simply claim it the work of the devil. But science shows that it's a natural product of evolution and we should EXPECT to see it in our species. Evolution as a creative force cannot belong to the devil, it must belong to God.

Why would God create homosexuality and then ban it in Scripture? Surely, the opposition to homosexuality throughout the ages has been the simple folly of man.

-Sab


It may well be that a person is born homosexual, the jury is still out but I personally believe it to be so.
But what does that mean?
Just because we are born a certain way, does it justifying behaving that way?
Most will agree that the answer is no BUT only when that harms another or self ( being born with violent tendencies doesn't justify being violent).
Christ never made a comment on homosexuality of any type ( the OT only prohibits male-male homosexuality explicitly), of course Christ didn't make a comment on MANY things we know to be wrong or to be right.
We need to remember that Christ's purpose was to give of Himself to Us, not to make a statement on every social situation or law or rule.
Paul made it clear that he viewed homosexuality as unnatural and wrong, even though it was aimed more at temple prostitutes and such, it was still a condemnation of the act ( though not of BEING a HS).
Most Christians that view HS as a sin go with " Love the sinner,hate the sin" as their view on things, in short they accept that a person is Gay BUT that they should NOT act on those urges.
How realistic is that? Not very.
God loves us, no matter what, BUT that love doesn't excuse us when we do what we KNOW to be wrong.

I do NOT agree that HS is a natural part of evolution, it works AGAINST the propagation of the species, it is not in the best interest of the species since there will be LESS procreation.

It MAY will be a "birth defect" of sorts ( forgive if terming it like that sounds bad, it is not my intent to offend), an error in the genes.
Why do I say that?
Humans procreate on a male-female basis and sexual desire evolved so that males and females would WANT to have sex and procreate.
Homosexuality works against that natural impulse and while it BIsexuality has been shown to be of a certain benefit in some social cases ( Sparta for example) I don't think we have a case of HS being a benedit to the species.

MEDEWTYSENU SAID

I don't recall Christ saying anything against Homosexuality.
Paul made comments about it but if memory serves, many of his early writings were somewhat in conflict with Christ's teachings as he tended to focus upon OT Law and not so much on the rule of Love. later on Paul seems to change his tune after the Gospels were written down and passed around.
Christ admonished us to Love our neighbor, even those whose views conflicted with our own. Jews at one time would have nothing to do with gentiles but after Peter received a vision from Yahveh this viewpoint changed with the conversion of Cornelius and his entire household.

We know that many of the Bible writers gave their opinions and just because it's included in the Bible does not make it inspired.

I am sure Christ was very aware of homosexuality in his own day yet chose not to address it directly or indirectly for that matter except to admonish his followers to Love one another as themselves.

Having said that, none of us are without sin and none of us are in a position to judge the actions of others as being right or wrong.

One such example comes to mind when the Priests caught a woman in the act of adultery which at the time carried the death sentence, yet Christ did not condemn her.

In our modern day the big issue in the US is whether gays should be allowed to marry. This is a Constitutional issue and not a religious one. Homosexuals are simply asking that the same rights afforded other persons are afforded them. I see no problem with this as it's about civil liberties and not religious ones.

I agree with PS that sexual union between a male and female is what causes procreation which is necessary for the continuation of the species. However this topic seems to concern not so much procreation but religious views. Since Christ never spoke on the subject it's MY opinion that he didn't consider it all that important.

I would have to wonder what God hates more? Homosexuality or the sins committed by heterosexuals such as Pedophilia, numerous divorces, abortions and others far too numerous to mention. Suffice to say Heterosexuals have far more things to answer for than Homosexuals do. When viewed in this light, HS seems to be the least of our worries.

How many single parent homosexuals are there on welfare? How many Homosexuals have abortions because the child is an inconvenience? How many divorces are there between homosexuals who have children and those children are torn between two parents?

For me it comes back to what Christ DID say when worrying about the actions of others. "First remove the rafter from your own eye...."


YSandFSofC
Morgan
_________________
"Those that matter don't mind and those that mind don't matter"--Dr. Seuss

ZOE SAID

I don't know, it is not the norm but why would it be a sin if they are born that way. Doesn't seem fair to them.
I think we should let God decide and leave them alone.

However I feel a lot of discomfort with the gay marriage hoopla and surrogating children, just seems so unnatural but that is probably because I am from the old school and its ingrained in me.

As Paul S said, Christ never addressed the subject so its probably not high on the what to worry about list.

PSACRAMENTO SAID

Some may argue that CHrist didn't make a comment on it because the Torah is quite clear.
Of course the Torah was quite clear on a few things that Christ overruled/reformed.
That said, I have never been a fan of the "argument from silence".
That sex is for procreation is obvious, that sex is very enjoyable is also obvious and the reason for it being so enjoyable is obvious from both the religious and scientific side:
Due to the pain of child birth, humans need a drive to procreate.
Since males do not have a bone and must be aroused for sex, pleasure is crucial for males.
Since women don't go into "heat" pleasure is also crucial for females.
None of that means more than sex is for procreation.
The enjoyable part is because we NEED that to WANT to engage in sex.
The intimacy shared adds to is be making BOTH partners want to hang around even after the act to take care of the child and each other.
All this is BECAUSE of procreation.
Nature and God work the same in that regard.

Homosexuality is NOT normal in the regard of what sex is for, it is a deviant behavior because it deviates from the norm.
These are the correct words to use in these contexts.

That homosexuality happens in nature is irrelevant to the argument as many good AND bad things happen in nature and are "natural" in that regard.

Homosexuality is probably viewed by God as "bad" in the sense that it is NOT ideal for the human species.

AGUEST SAID

Personally, I think this is a very simple situation:

1. Who are we to listen to, Paul... or Christ? The OLD Law or the NEW Law? Paul said that along with thieves, murderers, exortioners, fornicators, and adulterers, "men who lie with men" would not inherit the kingdom. Yet, the Father and my Lord:

a. Called and chose Moses, who some consider to have been a murderer
b. Called, chose, and later forgave David who DID commit murder
c. Called Paul himself (the hypocrite), who was responsible for MANY being put to death
d. Called Matthew as his apostle as well as Zacchaeus, both extortioners
e. Called and chose, by offering holy spirit, to the Samaritan woman at Jacob's well, a fornicatrix who was living with a man she was not married to
f. Not only didn't judge but forgave a woman caught in the act of adultery
g. Told a man thought to be a thief, if not a murderer, that he WOULD be with my Lord in the kingdom

2. Lazarus ("John") apparently thought it important enough to recount a situation where the women caught in the act of adultery was brought to my Lord, who did not judge her but forgave her. Adultery is part of the "Ten" laws; homosexuality is not. However, the penalty for both adultery AND homosexuality was death (not that anyone should have carried such out - EVERYONE should have pleaded for mercy for an offender!). If we are to judge homosexuals, then we are to judge adulters. BUT... we are also to judge menstruating women... because it is the same Law... as well as men having night emissions... because it is the same Law.

3. Christ didn't say a lot of things about a lot of things. But he DID say:



That "judgment"... is the Law Covenant, dear ones. And here is the POINT:

If you judge ANYONE according to that document... YOU will be judged according to that document. You cannot have it both ways: either the Law stands for everyone... and thus you judge everyone, including yourself, by IT... or it doesn't with ANYONE (for you)... and so you judge NO ONE by it. Either the NEW Law stands for YOU... and thus you judge NO ONE, including yourself, ACCORDING to it... or it doesn't stand for anyone... including you... and so you, TOO... will be judged by the Old.

See?

Our job, dear ones, is not to judge... anyone... as to anything. Because the TRUTH... is that everyone judges himself/herself! Sure, we can try to readjust someone who WANTS to be readjusted... so as to stop "sinning" in a particular thing. For instance, someone who is a drunkard and no longer wishes to be. But when assisting with readjustment, are we TRULY trying to help that person overcome THEIR "problem"? Or are we trying to eliminate what their problem causes for US? WHO are we "serving"?

If it our own viewpoint and desire... then that's not love; it's selfishness. If, however, the person is ASKING to help... or has indicated to us that they want and NEED it... then LOVE would prompt us to help them... FOR them. Which WILL benefit us.

But we "help" by where we start... which is FORGIVING and RELEASING... even BEFORE they ask. THAT is the only "job" we have in this respect. That is what Christ did: forgave and released, without judging ANY. And that is the task he left for us to do, as his "ambassadors". (Luke 6:37). That is yet another feature of the GOOD news of the kingdom: not that one will stop sinning (because we will so long as we are in the flesh), but that the sins we DO can be blotted out... by means of the blood of the Lamb!

"My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin,we have an advocate with the Father —[Jesus] Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:1, 2

True, we must keep an eye ON OURSELVES... so that OUR conduct does not cause harm or reproach... as our dear Lord did. But we have to remember his words:

"I came to call NOT righteous people... but SINNERS."

Why sinners and not righteous folks? Because:

1. Sinners are the ones that NEED forgiveness... and salvation;

2. Righteous people, those who righteous in and off themselves, and not due to having righteousness attributed to them THROUGH forgivness and mercy... can save themselves. Can they not?

Who, again, though, truly IS righteous... in and of himself/herself... and NOT a sinner? I truly am of the latter... and I KNOW what mercy has been shown ME. So, to judge another, for ANYTHING, could well result in my sins being called to mind in the day of the Judgment. My Lord KNOWS I don't want that... so... best I not judge anyone... for anything... but freely forgive, release, and show mercy... to ALL.

It's a easy thing to say that we just fight and overcome our sins. Far less easy to do it, though. And since we want mercy extended to US during those periods when and those things which we FAIL... such mercy should be extended to all others... during those periods and in which THEY fail.

At least, that is what I have learned from my Lord, the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah), the Son and Christ of the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH... of Armies.

Now, does that mean I would go out and say to people, "Sure! Commit adultery! Go ahead and fornicate! Engage in homosexuality!"? No more than I would say, "Sure, go out and steal! Extort money from others! By all means, murder whomever you choose! Molest children and animals, certainly!" No, I would not. If one... including one who DOES do such things... asked my position, I could only share with them what my Lord has taught me about them: they are sin... and so things I try personally to avoid/not do. BUT that I am a sinner also (and how is none of anyone's business)... and so I do not JUDGE them... but FORGIVE them... and so leave them to go... in peace.

If their sin is a matter for the courts (because it breaks a civil law) AND caused harm to another... I would follow the steps recorded at Matthew 18:15-17 and try to get them to do the right thing, even if that meant turning themselves into the authorities. If it caused no harm to another (i.e., interracial marriage in a state where such is a crime), I would most probably mind my own business.

If it is homosexuality that does not include pedophilia (a harmful act as well as a crime requiring a report to authorities), then, then all I can do is forgive them THEIR error... as I wish them to forgive me mine (whether they know what that is or not).

I hope this helps and, again, peace to you all!

YOUR servant, sister, and fellow slave of Christ,

SA

ZOE SAID

I am not religious though I am spiritual so maybe my thoughts on this aren't well informed.

I do believe a few things though. I believe There is a higher power and if he/she created us then it is his/her responsibility to judge not ours. If God/Higher power created us then he should fix the problem not us and wait on him/her.

The OT said so many things were sins that aren't now considered sins.

I am glad I was not born a homosexual (not because I think its bad) as we are already so burdened with lifes problems as it is. If someone is born with down's syndrone or dwarfism they can't do anything about it and its not the norm but its not considered a sin.

I guess I compare homosexuality to that but some think you have to suppress it and live your life according to what society dictates. At one time in the past if you had birth defects then they thought you or your family were cursed or of the devil and sometimes killed the handicapped child. To me in this day and age we should be more enlightened.

It must be so devastating to be constantly suppressing and hiding what comes naturally to you. It must be so hard to be yourself and to feel guilty and shameful and disgusting because you are born a certain way. It just doesn't seem fair to me.

So I think its not a sin but imperfection.



Oh I wrote my post before seeing yours Aguest.

I have to say that I think your words are very wise and well thought out. This to me is very much the answer if we are to answer what God and Jesus think about it. You didn't give us your opinion but used the words of your Lord and he is about love and not judgement.
I am very impressed.

TEC SAID

I rarely think about homosexuality at all. I think about the person, and leave their sexual orientation to themselves. If the sexual orientation is a sin, then it is one of the flesh (as in born with), and not a 'fault' so to speak. I know that if I was homosexual, then i would be looking for someone to love, same as i did as a heterosexual.

I agree 100% with everyone who has stated here that it is not our place to judge - and like i said, if I even thought to do judge, I would be bringing down judgment upon myself, because i would not remain celibate if i was homosexual. Nor would I tell my child to remain so, if they were homosexual. I would hope that they would find someone to love and share their life with, if that is what they wanted.

Love covers over a multitude of sins.

There IS sin in how some people have and continue to treat homosexuals, though. Because that is sinning against someone else, in that you are causing them harm, and then as Shelby stated, bringing judgment down upon yourself for the laws that YOU are breaking. People should perhaps concern themselves more about that, before picking up any stones (verbal or otherwise)

Peace to all,
tammy

JUSTMOM SAID

Hello and Good morning...

A lot has been said and I appreciate all the comments as I can relate to them.

I would like to add that since we have discussed in the past how "the spirit is willing... but the flesh is weak...weak in that it contains sin and death IN IT, because of our father Adam who gave this to us...
Therefore since Romans 3:23 says "ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." And Romans 6: 23 says "The WAGES of SIN is death"....

We being sin are ALL in the same boat. We deserve death!

Jah does not level sin as 1,2,3,...one being greater than the other and one deserving of death and one NOT (maybe just a slap on the hand)...

It is religion that teaches us there are different "boats" and that some are in one kind with less sin and others in another "boat" with greater sins.
That is how they can justify and point fingers at others by saying "I might do this BUT>>>>I least I'm not THAT>>>>>

We are ALL JUST THAT!!!

That is why we NEED Christ..We cannot redeem ourselves in any way shape or form!!!

When we can understand this and our understand "DEBT" to him, we will not judge so that judgement will not come back on us.

Therefore those in union with Christ have NO condemnation. Romans 8:1

Just wanted to share
Love Justmom who is working on this everyday of my life.

SAB SAID


This has been an interesting thread to read. None of my concerns were really addressed. Instead I got to know a lot of personal views regarding the act of homosexuality from some very convicted perspectives. I applaud your faith. I have a differing view, however.

I created this thread right after I watched a video on YouTube of an EXJW who joined a church of some sort. In one of his videos he brusquely stated God's view on homosexuality as sin which is something God detests. So I engaged with him in his channel via commenting. He used Matthew 19 as a proof text of Jesus' view on homosexuality. It says that marriage is an arrangement between a man and a woman. I have heard politicians like Michelle Bachman reply similarly when she parroted the mantra, "I believe marriage is between a man and a woman." She was referring to a Bible verse without actually saying it. I replied that the verse was about the spiritual contract of marriage and that gay people were being withheld that basic human right.

After some more replies suddenly another commenter who seemed to be an older religious leader appeared who asked me to interpret the verse where it says "they abandoned their natural way." I told him that the Greek word used in that verse is "path'os" which doesn't apply to modern day homosexuality. Consider what BibleSuite has to say on the word:


It simply isn't reasonable to consider homosexuality a depraved passion. Rather, it's a perfectly natural and scientifically explained passion, but ONLY FOR homosexuals or bisexuals, NOT heterosexuals. A heterosexual suddenly acting homosexual is not a good thing. It would be just as unnatural for a homosexual to live a homosexual life and then suddenly become straight. Modern psychology would deem that the product of external manipulation probably the result of guilt and shame likely from family and peers. Nonetheless, the word "path'os" involves suffering which from a law standpoint would be mostly referring to men who usually prefer women, most likely by force, who then turned on men exclusively, most likely by force. We are talking about something COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than what is shown to us by the gay community who parade for their human rights and freedom. The former is criminal activity and the latter is love.

To me the Bible isn't some gay hate book. If you study the document with thoroughness you should be able to understand where the gay community falls within the law and it's not sin and death. Matthew 19 is just a reference to the Torah where it speaks about "One flesh." To say that homosexuals are incapable patriarchs and matriarchs of families is just a misunderstanding of humanity and science.

I believe marriage is between two people who have chosen to raise a family together. It's about commitment which is not something homosexuals are incapable of performing. This debate is essentially about whether alternative sexual orientations breach humanity or not. The answer is simple, they are humans and that has been a truth since the beginning. Every single mass civilization has struggled with the morality of this subject, but everybody has always had the opportunity to know that truth. Science was never needed to explain this one, it only provides confirmation.

-Sab
_________________
It only ends once everything else is just progress - Jacob, LOST

AGUEST SAID

I personally didn't address your question, "Why did God create homosexuality..." dear Sab (peace to you!), but that would have triggered an entirely different discussion: what God created and didn't create. He didn't create sin, per se. He ALLOWED it, by means of not removing Adham but giving him a long garment of skin that had sin IN it.

Along with the sin that is, say, sickness, aging, death, etc., is the sin that is borne of desires in our SPIRIT. None of which we HAVE to do, but all of which we DO do. As dear 'Mom pointed out, though, sin is not ranked.

Rather than go into that, I chose to go in the direction of look at Christ and see God... and so see his view on homosexuality (versus that of the Old Law). He addressed marriage, yes... as well as adultery and fornication IN marriage. He didn't address homosexuality... indeed, sex OUTSIDE of marriage, at all... except to forgive two women (the one caught in the act of adultery and the one living with a man she was not married to... legally or otherwise).

My apologies if this didn't address what you had hoped would be addressed. Not sure most of the responses here challenged or disputed/disagreed with your position, though.

Again, peace to you!

YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

SA

CHARIKLO SAID

The thing that puzzles me, Sab, is, what makes someone into a homosexual?

Is there something biological/chemical? I ask, not in any condemnatory sense, but I am simply puzzled and curious. If it's a passion perfectly natural and scientifically explained, then what is that explanation? Because it seems to me to be anything but natural.

I agree with Paul, that what is natural is heterosexual love between a man and a woman resulting in children. I just don't see how homosexual relations are either natural or scientifically explicable.

SAB SAID



So you admit to dodging the question and changing the course of the discussion? Interesting

The EX JW Youtube videographer said in a comment that he hoped I didn't think he hated gay people. I responded by saying I didn't think he was a gay hater, but rather he had a misunderstanding of the nature of sin. I would say the same for you. Sin isn't something God allowed, it's something that isn't allowed, ever and the result of sin is death. If you want death, you choose sin. Therefore we, as the decedents of sinners inherit their problems. Sin is part of the laws of cause and effect, not some mysterious curse God stitched into the clothing of our forefathers.


I cannot see Christ because he is dead. My access to him is ultimately a mystery to me as I think it is for all Christians. All we have is what was written down and it was not in vain. Without the mysterious force I don't think we could have a chance at understanding any of it. It's garbled.

According to my understanding of Scripture Christ's view on homosexuality was the same as the Old Law which specifically condemns MALE homosexuality and specifically doesn't mention female. This was because what was prohibited was for men to act as if another man was his female. This was a crime and punishable by death. Christ left that law the way it was because it was a protection against rape, not a sexual orientation precedent for mankind.

The Torah specifically states that we are made in the Image of Elohim which contains the aspects of the feminine, masculine and the paternal in A SINGLE ENTITY. Naturally we see this reflected in humanity through homosexuals, bisexuals and heterosexuals. All are capable of being fruitful and filling the earth.

The ratio differential between sexual orientations makes sense with this approach to the Torah. We have a small percentage of homosexuals and bisexuals and a larger percentage of heterosexuals. The smaller population of life mates incapable of reproduction will be able to take on the orphans of the larger whom are capable. We have a built in solution to dead parents and it's called homosexuality. Instead, the religious leaders called homosexuality a sin/mental disorder so that orphanages could be established and lead by religious leaders so that they could be kept out of their rightful place.

It's dumbfounding to me that anyone can call homosexuality a sin when sin MEANS suffering. If you cannot affirmatively identify the suffering in a given situation you have no business calling it sin. To equate a homosexual family who gives back to society with a criminal who takes life way from society is asinine.



If you cannot understand what makes someone homosexual that's a sure sign you are heterosexual. Which means you will lean towards distaste because of your biology, not your morality. We have been teaching children that homosexuality is evil for an unspeakable amount of time. We cannot continue this teaching, even a little, onto further generations, it messes with their minds. I don't think there is a person on this forum who hasn't seen what it can do to the mind of a gay person. It's a constant state of cognitive dissonance. You might as well be trying to keep a historian from finding out that 586/7 is when Jerusalem fell to Babylon. The facts just don't add up. Eventually the lies just collapse in on itself.


Paul didn't have some special insight on the matter, he had to consult Scripture and pray like everybody else. That's why he didn't condemn slavery. He was just a really smart person who had a knack at combining religions and was an epic peacemaker. There is no reason to default to his opinion on this matter. The science speaks for itself, there is lots of research and data out there for the taking. It just takes an open mind.

-Sab
_________________
It only ends once everything else is just progress - Jacob, LOST

CHARIKLO SAID

"I cannot see Christ because he is dead."

But no. Even though we can't see him with our physical eyes, he is alive! Christ is alive!

That's the whole message of Easter. Of course, JW's don't recognise and therefore don't understand Easter, they don't recognise that He rose from the dead, they think he rose in some kind of spiritual form, but he rose physically and ascended to heaven a whole person. In this way, just as heaven and earth met at his birth, he came down from heaven then, in his going back to heaven he opened it to us.

I feel sorry for JW's. they just totally miss the whole point. They don't believe that his sacrifice of himself on our behalf conquered death and opened Heaven to all if they follow Christ, they miss the whole point of this great mystery. They think they know it all, have the "truth", but they don't even see the plot, they just totally miss it.

It's very sad. But he lives. He conquered death. He rose from the dead;, allowing Thomas, who doubted, to put his hand in the wound in his side, thus demonstrating his physicality as well as his divinity. Christ is alive!