xjwsforChrist

AGUEST SAID


May you all have peace!

On many occasions I've witnesses non-believers pointing out a lack of critical thinking abilities on the part of believers. While that may be true for some, it is not true for all. Indeed, I have learned that faith starts with critical thinking. For example, when I first discerned our Lord was speaking to me, I had to ask "Who is this, please?" and then decide whether it was reasonable/rational for me to believe the response I received ("I am the Christ"). Who... or what... would be "saying" such a thing to me... and how?? Given all that I had been taught up to that point, it was either my imagination run wild... or "demons." Right? But before I even got THERE, I had to quickly reason as to whether such a thing was even possible.

To even get to where I did at first, though, and respond I had to ask myself:

Can God/Christ even speak? (I had been told they didn't, except perhaps through the Bible).

If not, why not? (I could think of no reason why NOT... especially since the whole premise of the resurrection is that Christ is ALIVE, risen from the dead. The dead don't speak, okay, but why would someone who was alive NOT speak... or not be able to?).

Can/do other spirits speak? (I have always heard that "Satan" and "the demons" absolutely do speak!).

Are God and Christ spirits? (I believed so).

Who has more power and authority, God and Christ, or other spirits? (Answer is obvious... or should be).

If other spirits can/do speak... without using the Bible... why not the two most powerful with the most authority? (This didn't make sense to me).

If I can respond/talk to Satan/demons, why not to God and/or Christ? (Again, didn't make sense).

It was this reasoning... that led me to call the "speaker's" bluff... and respond (I asked, "Who is this, please?"). I mean, what did I have to lose? If it wasn't, then I could ignore or oppose what I was "hearing" and from whom. But if it WAS... and that was the chance I took.

But I didn't do it just on a willy-nilly, "Oh, hey, God's talking to ME!" kind of whimsy. The process took quite a few minutes of deduction and processing, actually, during which I kept trying to ignore the voice. It was the question, "Why don't you answer?" that bothered me, though. I thought, "Yeah, why DON'T I? Okay, I will!"

It is similar with reading the Bible/hearing things "about" God and Christ. Critical thinking is absolutely employed when one relies on the Christ as the revealer, in that one only need start with the question:

"Where is Christ in this account/scenario/depiction?"

If one cannot "see" Christ in the event, then one should consider rejecting it. For example, the account where Elijah called 2 she-bears to kill 42 children for making fun of him. Think, dear ones:

How many made fun of Christ? Were they children? How did he handle it? OR...

Christ is the Son and image of God.
All that Christ did he said he learned from the Father.
Christ said he did nothing of his own initiative but what he observed the Father doing.
Christ said he came to bear witness to the truth.
Christ always showed loved, even to his enemies.
Christ always welcome children.

Given this, where do you see Christ in the account of Elijah and the bears? If you do not see Christ in it... how can you see God in it? John 14:9-11

If you don't have faith enough yet, so that you can hear Christ himself... or God THROUGH Christ... speak (Hebrews 12:25)... you can use this line of critical thinking/reasoning, as to all that you read ABOUT the Most Holy One of Israel.

Once you start to ALLOW yourself to see/hear the Most Holy One of Israel, by ALLOWING yourself to see/hear Him THROUGH seeing/hearing Christ FIRST... it should get easier. Of course, even this starts with faith, though, that:

1. Christ IS the Son of God, His image, and exact representation;
2. He (Christ) IS alive, resurrected TO life from the dead; and
3. He can and does speak... for himself, on his own... and not through the pages of a book or several books; because
4. ALL power and authority HAS been given him... in heaven AND on earth... even more than that of our Adversary/"demons"; and so
5. He uses that power and authority, just as we would, and so doesn't hide from us... or use any other medium... other than his own voice (John 10:27).

If you're critical thinking abilities are developed, then just the above should help you discern why it is he does... and would... speak.

I hope this helps and, again, peace to you!

Servant to the Household of God, Israel, and those who go with... and a slave of Christ,

SA

PSACRAMENTO SAID

Critical thinking is great BUT it must start of with acknowledging that it has limits.
We can ONLY know what we can experience and we can only understand it based on a "point of reference" of some sort.
Think describing the colour red to a person blind from birth.
The colour exists and the fact that the blind person can't comprehend it, doesn't change that.
When it comes to God that is by the very definition of GOD, the greatest thing we can conceive ( and that is JUST the beginning of what God is) we have to accept the limits of our abilities to fully understand God.
If we can describe God, it isn't God.
If we can fully understand God, then it isn't God.
But being made in His "image" we have the capacity to "grasp" God and even more so since God has revealed Himself in His Son, Our Lord, the Word of God incarnate.

Our language will always fail to do justice to God and Christ, and logically so since it was NOT created to do anything but to put into words the universe we can see, hear, touch, taste and smell ie: KNOW.

There have been many attempts to try to understand God's nature, a nature He shares fully with His Son and HS, Our Lord.
The Trinity is the one that comes closest, but IMO, is not 100% because it creates a bit more confusion than it solves at times.

It is important to be critical in our thinking so as to NOT be complacent and to acknowledge that we don't knwo everything and must be open to new understandings.

Unfortunately too many "advocates" of CT are not as critical of their thinking as they should be.

JUSTMOM SAID

Thank you my sister aguest

Something I hear/heard also as part of this critical thinking/questioning.........
Is

Our Lord reminded me of all the qualities I "KNOW" him to be!


So....he said the world has worn it around their wrists as a fad for a while reminding them of this....

W>W>J>D> "What Would Jesus Do?

IF you cannot see him in this picture/scenerio DOING this/that....

Then it is NOT of Him or from Him.

this helped me

with love
justmom

TEC SAID

Excellent post!

I cannot add a word to it

Peace to you,
tammy

GLADIATOR SAID

Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 9:16 am Post subject:


As we all know, critical thinking is a left brain function, whereas our intuitive, creative, emotional right brain balances the sum and gives us our human qualities. A balanced mind will have a good relationship with both parts of the brain, allowing good communication within ones self.

What the conscious mind habitually accepts will take root in the sub-conscious and become belief. In this way critical thinking can lead to belief. Even so, many people find spirituality is an emotional experience that needs no logical explanation. Perhaps the critical left brain function is needed for spirituality to become religion?

JUSTMOM SAID

Thanks Glad
so.........

Maybe thats why I'm left-handed!!!! My husband tells me I get to emotional sometimes! lolol

jus thinkin
justmom haha

AGUEST SIAD



Indeed, dear Glad (good morning and peace to you!).



Yes, I would whole-heartedly agree.



Yes, but critical thinking is also instrumental in helping one NOT allow the "rooting" of false beliefs, yes? Everyone who's, say, left the WTBTS because of discerning their falsity had to use some manner of critical thinking to get to that point. Right?



And I have learned that that is the problem, dear one: it is what Paul's referred to as "the dulling of the senses". Spirituality is NOT an emotional experience in and of itself. I mean, certain revelations can bring on an emotional reaction, yes (usually of great gratitude), but it has nothing to do with our emotions any more than our physicality does (given healthy physicality, I mean, as there are biological anomalies that can affect our emotions, most certainly, but not "just because").

The thing is, one must take emotion OUT of the spiritual equation and UTILIZE critical thinking, something my Lord repeatedly tried to teach his disciples to do! He WANTED them to think... and often grew impatient when they didn't! Two questions that might help you see what I mean as to his emotion, though, are: (1) Other than the death of his dear brother, Lazarus, his ire at those using the temple as place to fleece the flock, his praying in Gethsemane, and just before his death on the pole... when did my Lord manifest emotion in conjunction with or over his spirituality? He didn't, because he was and IS a spirit (something he didn't/couldn't choose! It is his substance, not his conscience!), and thus "spiritual". Versus "religious"... which is something he could choose!

Second, why do you think women were not chosen as part of the 12? I asked him this... and his response was that, unlike men, women will stop at nothing to get what they want... for their children... if they think it's attainable... and their emotions often tell them it IS. Hence, the account of the mother who asked for the right and left seats for her sons!

More often than not, emotion actually gets in the way of spirituality, ... because it is more closely tied to the flesh than to the spirit. The flesh wants what it wants... and emotions (the "heart") will do what it can to convince the flesh that it should have what it desire(s). It is why our Lord said (and the Congregator, Prophets, and James, etc., wrote):

"My son, pay attention to what I say; turn your ear to my words. Do not let them out of your sight, keep them within your heart; for they are life to those who find them and health to one’s whole body. Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it." Proverbs 4:20-23

"A heart at peace gives life to the body..." Proverbs 14:30

"Crooked [is] the heart above all things, And it [is] incurable -- who doth know it?" Jeremiah 17:9 (YLT)

"Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed." James 1:13, 14

That is not to say one should NOT be emotional/exhibit emotion, ever; to the contrary, that would be to deny our humanness. We are emotional beings because we are also flesh (with its blood); however, when emotions RULE... well, THEN you have the means for exploitation OF such. Indeed, that's what occurred in Eden: the Adversary knew Eve was the best person to entice... because she did not hide her emotions. She did not hide her desire for the fruit of the Tree (of Knowledge of Good and Bad). It was because she kept looking at it that he knew she desired it... and so he only exploited what was already IN her. A piece of cake, really. Like taking candy from a baby (okay, giving candy to a baby - LOL!).

She kept looking at it... because she wasn't in control of her emotions.

And it is the same with religion today: as the BIGGEST exploiter of emotions... its appeal is TO the emotions... rather than to the sense of logic! And, as a result, it has fomented what it has among man: a actual leading AWAY from God (and Christ)... by means of a leading TO following man. For millenia. Which is its purpose: to lead away from God... and for specific people: the chosen ones! Matthew 24:24. And for all of us, whether of the Body of Christ or not, when our emotions lead us... we are much more easily MISled!

I believe, dear one, that this is another reason why I hear as WELL as I do (besides my Lord's gift and assistance): I am not an emotional person/thinker, but a logical thinker (contrary to popular belief). From a worldly standpoint, I am an INTJ personality type which, for all intents and purposes, should render me somewhat, if not virtually, unable to believe in [a] God... or spirits of any kind... or anything of that nature. The problem is... it also virtually forces me to seek truth... wherever and in whomever it can be found. Since, contrary to some's belief God and Christ DO exist... and Christ IS the Truth... logic says I would have found them (or been found BY them), eventually. Praise JAH, it was sooner... than later.



To the contrary, critical left brain function is needed to keep spirituality from becoming religion! Because... and I KNOW this is hard for some to hear... the two are NOT related, not by ANY stretch! One does not need to be spiritual to be religious... nor religious to be spiritual. Unlike religion/religious, "spiritual"... is not a CHOICE. It is not a temporary "status." Indeed, it is our physicality that is temporary! Our spirituality, however, has the potential to be eternal! THAT is the "man" that was designed to live forever... not the body of flesh (with its blood). THAT "man"... is destined to die.

"Spiritual", however, is what we ALL are... every living, breathing thing, literally... and not something any one of us did or can choose... or change.

Because we ARE spirits, dear one, and thus "spirit-UAL." We are celestial beings... temporarily residing in terrestrial vessels. Spirit beings. The only difference between us and other spirit beings... besides the fact that none of them except One will ever be sons of God... is that we are enslaved by and so, for a time, confined to... vessels of flesh (with its blood).

When those who recognize that they ARE spirits, spirit beings, spiritUAL, STOP looking to religion... stop walking by sight (such as the vessel of flesh provides it!)... STOP giving in to their emotions in trying to "see,", "hear", and "know" God... but turn and look at and to CHRIST... which they must do with the SPIRIT man they are, and not the FLESHLY man they are... they will find what... or rather WHOM... it is they seek.

Again, I am not saying that we should be devoid of emotion, not at all. I readily admit that I would fall apart emotionally if something happened to one of my loved ones. But that is a natural... and proper... response to such an event. Because such loss is related to the flesh! And the flesh WILL grieve its loss! Getting all welled-up and teary eyed because I think I see the "face" of my Lord in a toddler's crayon scribbling, rock, glass... piece of toast... mold on the bathroom wall (really??!!), however... is NOT a proper response or use of emotion. It is absolutely the time when the left side of the brain should kick in and say, "Oh, c'MON, now! Really??"

I hope this helps, dear one, truly.

Again, peace to you!

Your servant and a slave of Christ,

SA

P.S. Some have difficulty handling emotions because they think, "That's just the way I am!" Actually, it's the way one allows oneself to be. One can choose to be more... or less... "emotional". Thus, it is a choice, although not always an easy one. Spirituality... is not a choice. Anymore than a human can choose to be a horse... or tree... or rock.

RED SAID




I agree with this AGuest... Peace to you all! I thought I'd share something that might offer a little reassurance on the communication of spirits/Christ.

Reading this passage brought me back to a dream I once had..
I didn't understand why or what at the time but a few hours after I awoke and was at work it hit me!

In this dream I was in the presence of Christ. He appeared to me in a form that was unrecognizable(not human like but stood up as a man would). Although I saw his body, I did not see his face. I didn't HEAR as much as I FELT his words towards me. I instinctively tried to use words which DIDN'T come out! A moment passed in my dream and I suddenly saw myself as if TRYING to speak with nothing coming out. After this discernment I was no longer in my body. I felt a voice say, "Your words are useless"

After waking up I thought back on that dream trying to understand but couldn't. Hours later (at work) it came to me.

1. I had been asking questions and waiting for answers that my FLESH couldn't handle [which is why I believe he showed me in spirit].

2. Christ IS the truth. He speaks truth. Therefore anything not spoken ISNT the truth. The spirit brought me to another revelation which allowed me to understand the SERIOUSNESS of, ready for it, seeking truth from man or anything PHYSICAL In the matter for it is corrupt. Physicality = sin

Apparently I've had questions and I've been searching for answers in all the wrongs places and that I CAN learn to know Him THROUGH vessels here on Earth but those vessels(because of their flesh) can easily corrupt the words of Christ. My dream was an illustration that if you continually seek your answers from man's form of truth(religion) you will have NO truth in you.

Hope this doesn't make anyone feel uncomfortable because this post is a bit 'out there'.

Peace and Mercy be with you

AGUEST SAID

Didn't make ME feel uncomfortable at all, dear Prana (the greatest of love and peace to you!). I totally get, understand, and accept it. I can only add, for the others who might read this: out of the mouth of a babe (dear Prana just became "legal" this past April - LOL! I've known him since kindergarten and to see him write the things he is here is... well, all I can say is it makes me "emotional" - LOL!)

Peace to you, all... and, thank you, dear Prana, for sharing that!
_________________
Paz a todos!

Su sirviente, compañera de estudios, y un esclava de Cristo,

SA

GRAMMAVELTA SAID

(Prana said)

Apparently I've had questions and I've been searching for answers in all the wrongs places and that I CAN learn to know Him THROUGH vessels here on Earth but those vessels(because of their flesh) can easily corrupt the words of Christ. My dream was an illustration that if you continually seek your answers from man's form of truth(religion) you will have NO truth in you.

Hope this doesn't make anyone feel uncomfortable because this post is a bit 'out there'.

Peace and Mercy be with you[/quote]

Dearest Prana,

This is so true! We cannot trust man to give us answers. Only God knows what He wants us to know and will speak the truth to us. If we trust man, we can be (probably will be) misled because many (most) of the churches I have been to skirt the truth, give us their opinions of what the scriptures mean instead of letting God speak for Himself.

"But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I will put my law within them and I will write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. No longer shall they teach one another or say to each other, "Know the Lord," for they shall all know me from the least of them to the greatest, says the Lord; for I will forgive their iniquity, and remember their sin no more." Jeremiah 31:33, 34. NRSV

I believe that we are living in those days. What God is seeking is a relationship with His people. He wants to speak to us and teach us Himself and not use men who can misinterpret or pervert His words.

Love and hugs,
Gramma Velta
_________________
God makes everything work together for good for those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose. Romans 8:28
Website: www.imdoingeverything.com/maes

SOFT/GENTLE SAID

before one develops critical thinking one has to develop reflective thinking and this involves both sides of the brain, reflective thinking involves: assumption analysis, contextual awareness, imaginative speculation and reflective skepticism. These precursor skills then form the groundwork for developing critical thinking skills.

when someone is trying to pull the wool over your eyes they firstly manipulate the context and secondly cry foul when you challenge their assumptions.

On the other hand its is nice to see the phrase critical thinking skills being bandied about om JWN because it means that there is a desire to play with and develop the skills amongst xjws. Plus it means that the veracity of truth claims are being tested. but then one can only go so far intesting other people's truth claims. In testing one's own truth claims critical thinking is priceless

AGUEST SAID

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:14 pm Post subject:
Forgive us, dear S+G (the greatest of love and peace to you!), but perhaps you can... mmmmmm... break that down for us a little bit? Unfortunately, the terms you've used aren't used much among JWs (or by the WTBTS) and so some might not quite understand what you mean. Anyway to put that in, say, more "laymans-ish" terms? I am sure there are some who would benefit.

Thank you and, again, peace to you!
_________________
Paz a todos!

Su sirviente, compañera de estudios, y un esclava de Cristo,

SA

SOFT/GENTLE SAID

shelby - I'm so sorry about being complicated in my language.
to explain
first off let me say that I agree with you that faith starts with critical thinking. I've no doubt about that. But before the development of your faith you no doubt applied reflective thinking to your life and situation whilst for those newly leaving the watchtower this process was quite possibly narrowed to focus exclusively on the JW way of life.

Reflective thinking which to me signifies gaining insight through questioning one's own assumptions when one comes into contact with a wider community, is crucially important. Assumptions are tied to contexts and one needs quite a lot of imagination to speculate about these. Speculation (a dirty word amongst JWs) involves theorising about different points of view - basically one has to ask WHY, HOW and WHAT. During this process one develops one's own ethics, faith and character but this is done in relation to other points of view. WHO, WHY AND WHAT are then carried over into whatever committment one is in the process of making. so it seems to me that critical thinking iself is part of the journey one makes towards one's allegiance afterwards, after one develops reflective thinking.

okay this is sounding even more complicated than my previous post. So I think if I was looking for one word to encapsulate what I mean I would say INSIGHT. Insights imo are lightbulb moments and they light up the whole brain and is suggestive of an event occurring in one's thinking.

Incidentally I was reading in a recent newspaper about a study in which the brains of school leavers were tested and those whose brains hardly lit up at all were most likely to turn to drugs and alcohol which can then lead to a vicious spiral. imo the school system is failing them

edit: please challenge me and my assumptions

GLADIATOR SAID


AGuest, thanks for taking the time to reply with your 127 post. I can see what you are saying about controlling emotion rather than letting it control us. I tend to be able to suppress emotional when it is inconvenient, until the time is right and I want to involve my emotion.

I can see how critical left brain function is needed to keep spirituality from becoming religion. Your approach to belief and emotion is shaped by your belief that you are a spirit, along with all humans. I have reason to believe that another dimension may exist that we can sometimes experience, but that is as far as I have got but am applying myself to the matter. Tomorrow is another day!

I know this thread is about critical thinking leading to God through Christ, so I don't want to move too far away from your thread theme.

Soft+gentle

Q

Your post make sense to me. Reflective thinking does require using the whole brain. Much work also takes place in the sub-conscious, which quietly works away applying many facets of our knowledge and emotion to solving problems. Often a solution or decision will surface without prompting.

I am presently reading an enjoyable book called An Alchemy of Mind by Diane Ackerman. It's about " The marvel and mystery of the brain."

LEANN SAID

ladiator,

I may have to check out that book. Looks like something right up my alley. I agree with what you said about the subconscious. Amazing how it works behind the curtian to have things appear in our conscious thoughts.

I believe that sometimes our conscious brain tries to control our thoughts to such an extent that we cannot 'hear' the more intelligent side. For example, you have an idea pop into your mind.. you think that is silly, bring an umbrella into work today. Your logical brain reasons, there is no rain in the forcast, add I would look stupid carrying an umbrella for no reason. You ignore it. About noon you get ready to go to lunch and it is pouring rain. You stand there staring at the rain thinking.. I should have grabbed that umbrella.