xjwsforChrist

YPPUPLLEH SAID

I read that most here mention the love, mercy, gentleness, "insert positive word here" view of God. What of the other side of God? The Old testament God where first borns shiver in fear, plagues and sickness befell men, curses upon people and such?
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Love is a warm rubber puppy...

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To fear me is to love me....

TEC SAID

Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:17 am Post subject:
If that 'side' Puppy, is not seen in Christ... then it is not a 'side' that is in God.

OT descriptions or no OT descriptions. Because it is only Christ who is the TRUTH of God. The rest is a shadow.

Unless one is looking at Christ... then it might not be so easy to discern how to understand something that only seems 'vengeful and tyrannic'... or to tell the difference between what is true and what is not, perhaps because it was never understood to begin with, or something was added to/taken away from that something... due to the misconceptions of the people, teachers, and scribes.

Peace,
tammy

CHARIKLO SAID

Remember that the New Testament is all about Jesus Christ, who came and brought a New Covenant.

Christ, being God's Son, gives us a much better view of God, a God who cares even for a sparrow that falls., Christ who loved us enough to submit to humiliation, agony and death by humankind FOR humankind.

JUSTMOM SAID

hello Puppy

Remember also, we have false scribes that want nothing more than to portray Jah in the OT as a vengeful unmerciful God. That is exactly how the adversary gains power so individuals will live in FEAR and GUILT and even stop believing altogether in Him.

We also have zealous brothers of ours in the past and certain kings and servants who sometimes ran ahead of things and carried out "their will" when it was not Jah's will. We are all guilty of this from time to time.

When in doubt, look to Christ. That is the only way not to be misled.

Love to ya'll
justmom

YPPUPLLEH SAID

The false scribe argument could always be used for the New Testament. That Jesus was portrayed as a more lovey dovey person to get away from the less popular God of wrath and mercy

Do you(the general you) believe that Jesus/God took on human form with all it's physical and emotional shortcomings? Did Jesus ever get pissed? Get scared? What happened to Jesus during the lost years? Why did Jesus pray to God? Sometimes I wonder if we have built up the stories and legends of Jesus so much that we have turned him into a superhero where in the past he was just a great teacher.
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Love is a warm rubber puppy...

JUSTMOM SAID

I don't see why he wouldn't have been normal in the flesh. Normal desires of youth, getting sick from time time, getting angry even pissed off (wrathful/not sinning) testing his parents as a young person does, etc

His flesh was just like ours it was his spirit in him that was from Jah and he knew this. Adam had even a greater advantage over Christ in that he did not possess sinful flesh until he sinned and was cast out of the garden and given garments of skin/flesh that would eventually die with sin in it.

Romans 8:3 tells us "God sent his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh"...
Hebrews 5: 8 & 9 tells us "Although he was a Son, he LEARNED obedience from the things he suffered; and AFTER he had been MADE PERFECT he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him."

So it was the Spirit that was perfected. His flesh he was not so concerned with. It was weak, he knew it and even weakened more when he took in the sins of many by healing.

Just my .02cents
love justmom

CHARIKLO SAID

Pup, I haven't got a lot of time this morning, but just straight off the cuff, you're forgetting that, right from the earliest stories we have of him, Jesus was speaking of God as his Father.

Whatever he did, he would refer to his Father in heaven. When he was twelve, he rebuked his mother for worrying about him, asking her if she didn't understand that he had to be about his Father's will. He was distinguishing between Joseph, bringing him up as his earthly father, and God, his Father in Heaven. At all times he referred to his Father, gave glory and thanks to him, spoke to him in prayer, and also called himself the Son.

He was so very much more than a great teacher. It is also clear that he was the Word made flesh, through whom all things were created. He is, if you like, as od made man, an interface between God and man. Through him we can see God. He lived as Jesus in Palestine two thousand years ago, and lives here and now.

I sometimes think that trying to understand and encompass all of this in our minds doesn't always help. JW's like to say nothing is a mystery, and that we can understand it all. To my mind, this is nonsense. We have glimpses and flashes of understanding, sometimes more, sometimes less, and sometimes it may seem that we grope in the dark. That doesn't matter. Shelby is granted flashes of clear understanding, in a particular way. Others of us may have different moments and modes of understanding. But we are all reaching towards and living with the one Christ, Son of God, who came down from heaven and lived amongst us, a means of grace and bringing us great hope. In Jesus God shows us his great love for us. And the love the Father has for the Son.

It is all a glorious mystery.

PSACRAMENTO SAID

God in His completness is far beyond our ability to grasp and understand.
YET, He has shown Us ALL his attributes in His Son.
But to your point about the portrayal of God in the OT:
There is no reason that God wouldn't show wraith to those that "only understood" wrath.
We have to take into account WHO God was dealing with, what kind of people were they and the OT Jews were a ungrateful lot !
They were hard hearted and stiff necked and turned on God the first chance they got.
They were punished over and over and over and still they turned.
We also have to add to those texts the understanding that the writers KNEW who they were writing for and WHAT would get through to them.
An example:
I don't do fear very well, it just isn't a thing that "gets me".
Fear God never made any sense to me, so a passage that shows God's power and wrath doesn't do anything for me, BUT a passage that shows His love and compassion does.
But for some, those passages of wrath and punishment do more than all the "lovey dovey hippie stuff" ever will.

GLADIATOR SAID

There is often a lack of consensus as to what God actually is. There seems to be an acceptance that God is somewhere out there sitting on his asteroid deciding whether or not to be happy or angry; watching us and knowing everything we do, or are about to do, but is too complacent of mankind’s suffering to stop bad things happening.

This is why some people prefer to be allow themselves to be labelled as atheists by default rather than be identified with the petulant God described in much of the bible and other major holy books. My God would be a part of everything that exists. There would be no God versus us, just a collective universal reality that is not separate from reality.

Good and bad are relative terms and what seems bad in the sort term can have a greater good or benefit over a greater time scale. Whatever good or bad there is in the universe must all be a part of God. How can anything happen that is not God? Everything in the universe, whether visible to human eyes or invisible, is energy vibrating at differing speeds. Science is just beginning to comprehend how un-solid all matter is and all that exists is the same energy. What we perceive as physical is a matter of perspective relative to the speed at which the energy that we view as ‘us’ vibrates.

For me the word ‘God’ is rather redundant because it is contaminated by being used for so many thousands of years to describe an entity with fixed ideas, rules, plans and rewards to those who are faithful to a particular creed. Perhaps it’s time for a new noun to describe all that is called God. Can the energy that IS the universe be called a he? An individual entity that seeks to manipulate energy to conform to a set plan, while at the same time allowing mortal man to interfere and thwart his/her perfect plan.

The idea that ‘God’ is within us so there is no separation is one which makes sense to me. Reality is what it is and can never be an error because reality is all there is. There cannot be an alternative reality that didn't happen but should have done; an entire world of mankind made in God's image that is not God but separate from the reality of the rest of the universe.

But your mileage may vary - a lot

CHARIKLO SAID

Quote:
This is why some people prefer to be allow themselves to be labelled as atheists by default rather than be identified with the petulant God described in much of the bible and other major holy books.


Interesting post, Glad. I go along with a lot of that, except that, for me, I'd qualify it by saying "the petulant God that some see as described in much of the Bible and other holy books, according to their perception and their understanding. "

A lot of the rest of your post resonates with me, except that I believe that God, who in many ways is all that you say, is not all of that in the sense that that is all he is. I believe that as well as being all of that, he is also personal, a person, with intentions (or maybe one great over-arching intention), and who in addition cares for each one of us as a person, loves us, has intentions that include us.

That is pretty mind-blowing, but not entirely beyond our comprehension. At least, I feel that this understanding is something I can grasp, it is what I hold to, and it is where my faith lies. Adding to all of that, of course, is the fact, for me, that he is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but of course I say this with respect for and deference to those on this board whose beliefs do not encompass all of that. I know there are some whose beliefs are close to mine in essentials but not the same as mine with regard to particulars, so I don't want anything i say to cause offence, and none is intended.

I'd like to say two things. First, Hellpuppy, dear Hellpuppy, your question was so welcome and profound and has led us into very deep realms. Thank you!

Secondly, I want to say how lovely it is that on this board we can talk about these things without fear of ridicule and scorn, in the knowledge that we will each be heard with respect. Thank you to everyone who helps to make this board what it is, and long may it last!

AGUEST SAID

I'm with you, dear Char (peace to you!) - you all make my heart REJOICE! Why shouldn't we be able to discuss these things with taking sides or trying to force others in our own "corners"? Where is love in that? Christ didn't do it - he simply put it out there. For those who CHOSE to follow him, he often said, "YOU, though, do not YOU..." or "YOU, though, YOU should...". But again, he said such things to those who CHOSE to follow him. I am reminded of his words to Peter, when, after he told his disciples that they would need to eat his flesh and drink his blood... some decided it was too much and stopped following him. He said, "You, too, do not want to go away also, do you?" Or something to that effect. He framed the question, though, so that PETER could make the choice as to what he would or would not do. He also never said that he was the Son of God... but allowed others to come to that conclusion based on what THEY saw and heard coming FROM him.

It is not the job of a true christian to convert others, per se, but to simply put the OPPORTUNITY to be reconciled to God THROUGH Christ, the OPPORTUNITY to be in union with Christ, the OPPORTUNITY to be a part of God's kingdom, and the OPPORTUNITY to live forever, either through a metamorphosis change OR resurrection... out there. All we can do... all we're SUPPOSED to do... is "plant". Perhaps "water" a little. But it is not we who make it grow... and so to take issue with folks who aren't there (yet, if ever)... can actually be opposing God. HE draws and CHRIST chooses. Not us. Our message, then, is limited to the GOOD news of the kingdom.

On occasion we meet with opposers and we have the choice of backing down... or standing our ground, even calling them out on their deceit and hypocrisy. Because our Lord did both... and its his footsteps we can follow. Of course, not every situation... or every opposer... is the same and so while one situation may call for standing one's ground, another may call for backing time - it simply isn't the time or of any benefit.

So, okay... that's that. Now:



Actually, this is a huge myth, dear HP (the greatest of love and peace to you!): while he was lovING... my Lord was NEVER shown to be "lovey dovey" in the NT. To the contrary, he was quite matter of fact, even brutal sometimes (depending on who he was speaking to). The closest he came to being depicted as "lovey dovey" was when he was healing people or dealing with children. Then, his compassion was manifest. But there are WAY more examples in the NT where he was very candid, very pointed, even blunt sometimes. He called a spade a spade, even with his own disciples (whom he even got frustrated with from time to time - because Lord knows, they were always squabbling and rivaling among themselves... and lacking faith).

I recall one incident where two men came to him squabbling over their inheritance. Apparently, one didn't want to share with the other. Did he go into a lecture about how they should "love" one another and then tell them how to divide it? Nope. He is recorded to have said:

"Man, who appointed me a judge or an arbiter between you?”

And then he warned them about greed. Nothing about love in that account. And how many times is he recorded to tell his disciples, even the apostles, that they lacked faith? Not to mention how he spoke to the chief priests, scribes, and Pharisees. On the night they came to get him, he got quite frustrated with James, John, and Peter because they kept falling asleep! And he let them know it! He repeatedly... and rightfully... called out the chief priests, scribes, Pharisees, and others for their lack of faith, their deceit, their hypocrisy, their wickedness... He even called them "offspring of vipers" and told them they were from their father, the Devil!

Love does not equate to mincing words... flattery, ear tickling... or even taking all that's thrown at you. Indeed, part of the reason he told his disciples to turn the other cheek was because he KNEW that there would be those seeking to KILL them, literally! So, don't give them a reason - turn your cheek and perhaps live! Of course, it was also to help them "learn peace," which is one of his major teachings... then and now: so long as it remains with us, we are to be peaceable with ALL men. Standing firm in the face of one's opposers, however, particularly when they falsely accuse and/or slander God or him (Christ), is not a violation of this admonishment. Because sometimes, it does NOT remain with us. Sometimes, our task is to OPPOSE (the Devil... and those he uses).



Absolutely. He HAD to. In order to be tested like us... in ALL respects. If he hadn't, then how was he truly tested? Would he not have had an advantage? He would... and I ASSURE you the Adversary would have brought that out. Just as did with Job. For that one (Job), he said that Job only loved and served JAH because of all of the blessings he (Job) received from JAH... but that if JAH took such away, indeed "touched" Job so as to have him be cursed... HE (Job) WOULD, in turn, curse God. He didn't, of course.

But it would have been the exact same thing with my Lord: the Adversary would have said, "Well, yeah, of COURSE he hasn't sinned... he has a different body! He's not going through what they do, not experiencing what they do!" Why wait for that challenge? And God didn't. As dear 'Mom (peace to you, my sister!) pointed out, JAH sent him in the likeness of sinFUL flesh... not sinLESS flesh. We KNOW his flesh was like our, full of sin because:

1. He got it from Mary, a woman of flesh like ours. That is the very reason why he had to be BORN of a woman of flesh... so that he could have a VESSEL of flesh like ours. If he were to just put ON flesh, as spirit beings can do... he could have also simply put it OFF... once things heated up. OUR flesh can't do that, though - it is enslaved to this world and cannot be fully transcended. By means of his Father's SPIRIT, he could transcend to SOME extent... but not fully. But, again, as dear 'Mom pointed out... he LEARNED obedience... by the things he SUFFERED. NOT suffered as when he was whipped and impaled... but SUFFERED... like US: either due to the sickness and death that he carried IN that body... OR when he DENIED that flesh IT'S "longings." For example, when he was taken to the wilderness to be tempted. His flesh SUFFERED... yet, he did not give in to it. Unlike us, who would have HAD to have something to EAT, let alone DRINK... after just a few days... he allowed HIS body to go without. And if we think that body didn't protest... and that he didn't suffer... we don't really understand what took place out there.

2. It was able to carry sickness in it. The spirit body does not do this - it is only the body of flesh (with its blood) that has and carries sickness and death in it. We know it carried sickness in it because that's how he healed people, taking THEIR infirmity into HIS body (which he finally took IN his body to the grave). That's why he said, to the Pharisees: "No doubt you will say (as to him), 'Physician, heal YOURSELF'"! He said this because, although he had been going around healing OTHER people... HE was now greatly... and grossly... ill... as a result! This is what Isaiah prophesied about when he said:

"He was despised and was avoided by men, a man meant for pains and for having acquaintance with sickness. And there was as if the concealing of one’s face from us. He was despised, and we held him as of no account. Truly our sicknesses were what he himself carried; and as for our pains, he bore them. But we ourselves accounted him as plagued, stricken by God and afflicted." Isaiah 53:3, 4

So many misconstrue this to mean he was "as if" these things. That's an error - he was VERY sick in body by the time he was put to death. Along with advance leprosy (and hence, the hiding of his face), he was lame, almost blind, and had his body's reproductive system all screwed up, as well as other maladies. Whatever folks had that he healed, he now had. Because he TOOK their sickness, disease, and pain INTO his own body. He needed to... in order to take it all to the grave with him, he... "the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world."

3. It died. Perfect flesh does not die.

We can also know that it contained the same TENDENCIES toward emotion that our bodies do... but just as some of us are more able to control our emotions, he was able to control his. Except perhaps once, when he drove out the money changers.



Yes. Again, the account of his driving the money changers from the temple grounds. But the chief priest, scribes, Pharisees/Sadducees... his disciples... and many Jews themselves... routinely pissed him off, as well. Read what he said to them! He didn't, however, let any of that overshadow his LOVE for them. He STILL gave his life TO... and FOR them. Even these, asking the Father to forgive them... allowing himself to accept that they DIDN'T know what they had done. If you are a husband or father, or son, brother, or friend... then you know what I mean.



Yes... and no. His flesh? Yes. At least three times, if not more. The night of his arrest he was scared. So much so that his flesh sweated blood when he prayed. When he asked for the "cup"... the portion that he had to undergo... his flesh was scared. He overcame that fear, though, by his spirit, which asked that the Father's will... and not his own... be done. And... when he thought the Father had left him. He couldn't hear the Father... or feel His presence... and so he cried out "Eli, Eli, lama sabacthani?!" He felt alone, something he had never felt before... because he always heard the Father and felt His presence IN UNION with him. JAH had to remove that "hedge", though, in order for HIS (Christ's) test to be FULLY proven (Job 1:9-11; 2:3-5)

His SPIRIT, however... never felt fear. Why? Because he was PERFECT in love (Matthew 5:43-48). And PERFECT love... casts ALL fear... OUTSIDE.



He was being taught... by the Father. He was learning, training, because now he had to get the "master" over his vessel of flesh, something he hadn't ever had to do before (when he manifested before, put on flesh, it was the kind of body that could go in and out - this body was different. He had to learn to control it: it's desires, it's leanings, it's needs, etc.). He was spending as much time as possible strengthening his union with the Father, being strengthened BY the Father, and "preparing" for what was to come, including his death.



Because that is how those in the body of flesh (with its blood) speak with God: flesh with its blood is an "unclean" vessel and so cannot approach directly. It must be CLEAN in order to do so (which is why WE must go THROUGH Christ - HE is the One who is "clean", not us. We may be clean in SPIRIT, and thus, after going through him can enter by SPIRIT... but we cannot enter in the flesh. Not in THIS body. And he was in the flesh).

Sometimes I wonder if we have built up the stories and legends of Jesus so much that we have turned him into a superhero where in the past he was just a great teacher.

That's understandable, but that's because we HAVE built him up... into a kind of superHUMAN superhero... as well as have tried to bring him down, negate his spirituality... so as to make him ONLY human. He is a SPIRIT, first and foremost, who took on flesh... inherited from a woman OF flesh... so that he was both. Our own legends, myths, stories, etc., confuse and convolute this truth. We have everything from Hercules to Superman to try and make such a person "real" to us. Some are based on man's attempts to materialize prophesy... or his attempt to explain beliefs in such a being.

All they need to is look to and at Christ... and they will SEE the fulfillment. NOT the Christ as religion often paints him... but as he TRULY is! And... he is NOT "pretty." Unfortunately, because we can't handle to TRUTH about this... we not only see what we want to see or don't that which we don't... we CREATE what we want to see.

He is not human. He is a spirit being that, in order to save mankind... took on the FORM of human... took that form, along with all that afflicts it... to the grave... the rose FROM that grave... in the form he had before, one that can go in AND out (and unlike the human form, the spirit form can change... in structure AND appearance).... which form he now offers to all those who put faith in him that he can... and WILL... grant it. The "white robe"... the body of SPIRIT (with GOD'S blood, holy spirit)... in place of the "soiled garment"... the body of flesh with its blood.

That faith, however, is not simply a blind belief. It is MANIFESTED, DEMONSTRATED, EXERCISED.

I hope this helps, dear HP, truly... and, again, peace to you and your household!

YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

SA

GLADIATOR SAID

Chariklo

Thanks for your response. I do understand your connection to God as a person that relates to you as an individual. To me person is an individual with set boundaries that define them as a person. I see ‘God’ as a force that is only limited by the potential of the universe.

We as human are an intrinsic part of the universe. This does not lead me to believe that we as an entire race are anything more than one particular even peculiar expression of all that my concept of God embraces. My comments are only speculation as I have no fixed point from which I start and no predefined conclusion that I must always arrive at. Such freedom comes at a price, so I envy your certainty. Talking with others that have arrived at a conclusion is both interesting and entertaining.

JAMESTHOMAS SAID

I feel that Gladiator is seeing clearly beyond the box.

Characteristics, are attributes we use to help the mind separate and differentiate between one thing and some other thing.

The mind can only fool itself into believing that it "understands or knows" something, when there is some THING there to understand or know. So, in order to fool itself into believing it knows its Source, it weaves together a fictitious character or thing that it then calls God. Now that the mind has some thing to play with, it's free to add or subtract all kinds of characteristics, textures, personality traits, etc, to its little doll.

Right now, right here, what is it that is not a THING?
What is it that can not be reduced to characteristics and attributes?
What is here which includes and encompasses everything that has ever been experienced?
What silently embraces the entire universe?

Don't mean to rain on anyone's parade or anything.

CHARIKLO SAID

Gladiator, just a very quick interim response, yes, I do see the limitations of the word "person" when thought of in that sense. But what I meant, in respect of God, was not a person confined by boundaries. Clearly, yes, God is limitless.

It seems to me that here it is our own words and language that are creating the limitations, so they are not real. I can conceive of a being both vast and yet focused on the smallest particular, and that having a personhood that has no limit or limitation.

Does that bring us closer together in understanding, Glad? It does for me, but I don't know if I have been able to get my meaning across through the confines of language.

Shelby, I've read your post with great interest, as always, and I'll be especially interested to see what Hellpuppy makes of all our responses to this thread!

CHARIKLO SAID


Hi James, just to say I wasn't ignoring your post; it's just that it didn't show up while I was composing my reply to Gladiator!