xjwsforChrist

Yessir (peace to you!)



Yes.



Not quite. The "other sheep" ALSO include Jews. Just not those who are in the 24,000... who "did not defile themselves with women," etc. There are Jews who DO defile themselves (i.e., "Messianic Jews," etc.), even after being called. Hence, they are not SEALED. They come to understand this, and turn back, but are not part of the "little flock".



Not sure I understand this. Both deals with both, I think... ?



That's not true, dear one. There is the erroneous thinking that Paul ONLY went to the non-Israelites. He was an apostle to the nations, yes, BUT... he absolutely went to both the Jews AND the non-Jewish Israelites. In fact, he preached to the Jews FIRST; he HAD to:

"Now in the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen (who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch) and Saul. While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, holy spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” So after they had fasted and prayed, they placed their hands on them and sent them off.

"The two of them, sent on their way by holy spirit, went down to Seleucia and sailed from there to Cyprus. When they arrived at Salamis, they proclaimed the word of God (Christ) in the Jewish synagogues. John was with them as their helper.

"From Paphos, Paul and his companions sailed to Perga in Pamphylia, where John left them to return to Jerusalem. From Perga they went on to Pisidian Antioch. On the Sabbath they entered the synagogue and sat down. After the reading from the Law and the Prophets, the leaders of the synagogue sent word to them, saying, “Brothers, if you have a word of exhortation for the people, please speak.

"Standing up, Paul motioned with his hand and said: “Fellow Israelites and you Gentiles who worship God (i.e., converts to Judaism), listen to me!

“Fellow children of Abraham and you God-fearing Gentiles (the latter already being converts to Judaism and thus, "Jews"), IT IS TO US that this message of salvation has been sent. The people of Jerusalem and their rulers did not recognize [Jesus]..."


Note, by "children of Abraham," Paul didn't mean ALL Israelites. Remember, the Jews REJECTED the other 10-tribes and took the name "Israel" to mean them ONLY. ESPECIALLY the Pharisees (John 8:39, 53)... and Paul was a former Pharisee. So when using the terms "children of Abraham" and "Israelite", Paul meant the Jews. Indeed, it would be considered blasphemous by some to use the term "Israel" for anyone BUT Jews. Christ, however, told the JEWS not to consider themselves the children of Abraham (Matthew 3:9; Luke 3:8). I digress.

"Paul and Barnabas were leaving the synagogue, the people invited them to speak further about these things on the next Sabbath. When the congregation was dismissed, many of the Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who talked with them and urged them to continue in the grace of God.

"On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. When the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy. They began to contradict what Paul was saying and heaped abuse on him.

"Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we NOW turn to the Gentiles.

The fact that he was saying they would "NOW" turn to the Gentiles means that he considered "God-fearing Gentiles" as NOT those "of the nations" but Jews. As Jews in general considered them.

He, then, gave them the basis for turning to the (non-God-fearing, and so non-converted and thus non-JEW) Gentiles:

"For this is what the Lord has commanded us:

[color=#0000FF]“‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’” Isaiah 49:6


This wasn't speaking as to the conversion of any Gentiles to JUDAISM, but to following CHRIST. And thus, "you" in the prophecy referred to Christ, a JEW... and those whom he sent, such as the Apostles... and Paul (2 Corinthians 5:20). Hence:

"When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the Word of JaHVeH (honored CHRIST!); and all who were appointed for eternal life believed."

Acts 13:1-5 13-16; 26, 27; 42-48




Yes, but who was Paul writing TO? if you read of his journeys (Acts 18-20) you will find he was writing to the JEWS... and Jewish converts (who are considered Jews, by means of circumcision)... who received holy spirit... in Ephesus. Indeed, most of his preaching THERE was to Jews/converts in the synagogues and the "elders" were Jews.



I should have clarified much earlier: "Jews" include Jewish converts. So, yes. IF they were already Jewish converts... and so "Jews" in all respects except the flesh, yes. But when we speak of "Gentiles," we are not including Jewish converts as such, although originally non-Israelites and people of the nations, were JEWS due to their pre-messianic conversion TO Judaism. And so the "gentiles" that Paul INITIALLY preached to were Jewish converts and thus, "Jews" and part of the "Jews" that are the "little flock." I am sorry I didn't make that distinction.

Which brings me back to your question as to numbers vs. ethnicity: remember, he is not a Jew who is one on the OUTSIDE but one on the INSIDE. And so, so long as a (wo)man accepted and so CONVERTED to the worship, customs, and traditions of Jews (which, again, for men included circumcision), they were considered a Jew for all intents and purposes. They could enter the temple, but only to the Court of Gentiles. A non-Israelite/non-Jew could not.

I hope this helps!

Again, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shel

I'm sufficiently confused.

First, the number 24,000 is new to me. Yes, I see it's 12,000 from the two tribes of Judah and Benjamin, and thus make up a portion of the 144,000. So, in saying the "little flock" is made up of only 24,000, you are, in fact, saying that the "little flock" is at least a portion of the 144,000. Logic then says that the remainder of the 144,000 come from the other 10 tribe, who also do not defile themselves with women, are sealed, etc.

I'm going to try to whittle this down to something simple:

The "little flock" are Jews, 24,000 in number, who are sealed and meet all the other criteria for being part of the 144,000.
The 144,000 include the "little flock" plus 120,000 from the other 10 tribes of Israel who are also sealed and also meet the criteria.
The "other sheep" includes everyone other than the "little flock" including the 120,000 who are part of the 144,000.

Yes? No?

Well, I don't know how you could be, dear LQ (peace to you!), as I was absolutely, totally clear on the matter. Okay, you KNOW I'm joking... right? Because I even had to apologize for poorly choosing some words - LOLOL! Truth is, though, as I read your comments, I'm not sure you're as confused as you think you are - LOLOL!



Yep! Gotta remember: the "Jews" are the "Yehudi"... or "those of Judah" (Yehuda)... which is the TWO-tribe kingdom of "Judah"... made up of Judah AND Benjamin (as of the split after Solomon (1 Kings 12:20, 21, 23; Ezra 1:5; 4:1; 10:9; Nehemiah 11:4). And if you look at the list at Revelation 7:5, 8, there is 12,000 for Judah... AND 12,000 for Benjamin... so 12,000 plus 12,000...

Note, I ALMOST put 12,000... until our Lord asked me, "And what of the children of Ben'JAH'min, child?"

Oh, oops, that's right, my Lord! Soooo... 12,000... plus 12,000 equaaaals... (SA raises one eyebrow, then closes eyes to help "concentrate", then, after a couple/few minutes... licks end of pencil, puts tongue in corner of mouth, and "puts pencil to paper")... oh, yeah... right: 24,000! LOLOLOL!



Well, I mean, if you NEED to look at it that way, yes. But that's dangerous to do, IMHO... as it might make one feel "uncomfortable," excluding the other tribes (because that's what the Jews did... and STILL do, down to this day). But it is the truth...



Yes. But note, ALL of them defiled themselves, per se... but were WASHED clean by Christ and so RETURNED to a "virgin" state. From THAT point, as "virgins" and so promised in marriage to HIM, they stay free from defilement, even with the "daughters" of the Mother of the Harlots. If they weren't washed by him, though... their sin(s)... and so uncleanness/defilement... would "remain"... yes? Because ALL have sinned... and ALL of Israel was called an "adulterous house". Even those alive at the time he was here ("wicked and adulterous generation")... yes? But they were washed CLEAN. When the blood of Christ washes one, ALL defilement is removed ("The Lamb of God who TAKES AWAY the sins...").

Now, clean, they can not only stand enter into and stand before the face of the MOST HOLY (One of Israel)... but as part of Christ's BRIDE, who is a "chaste" virgin.



Well, okay! LOLOL!



Umm-hmmm... yes...



Yep...



You got it!



YES!!

And, again, MY apologies for any confusion... and my verbosity - LOLOLOL!

Peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shel, who never promised ANYONE she was concise/succinct - LOLOLOL!

Greetings my brothers and sisters...

Peace and Love to you ALL,

Soooooo, I've been reading and following ( doing my best at least) .....

And the 24,000 in number from the two- tribes that make up the " little flock" was new to me as well.

But I think I understand it all now, thank you LQ and my dear sister Shelby for your sharing from our Lord except this one part....

Paul also suggests that, of those of the nations, although grafted in this not necessarily permanent. That is true: only those "from among the sons of Israel" are SEALED. Those of the non-Israelite nations must make THEIR calling and choosing "sure." Because THEY can be grafted back OUT. Once sealed, though, those from Israel cannot be grafted out. That is the PURPOSE of the "sealing" (along with the "mark" that names them AS from Israel).

I know as Revelation tells us the 144,000 ARE sealed!

You have shared here that those " from among the sons of Israel are SEALED."

Because there are " sons of Israel " included in the "other sheep" (out of all TRIBES, nations, tongues)..
That are NOT part of the little flock, are they also sealed?

You may have shared it somewhere here already, I'm just not seeing it.

Thanks, your sister and fellow slave of CHRIST, Kim

I think (at least for me) trying to keep that connection which should not BE a connection to begin with (little flock with the 144 000 - other sheep with the great crowd)... is part of what has made this seem so confusing. I didn't even know (or had forgotten) that the wts considered the little flock to be the 144 000.

Maybe just throw that out of your head.




The 144 000 are all sealed, 12 000 from each tribe, yes. (Then of course there is the great crowd that no one can number from every tribe, nation, etc.) That is one thing.

**

But separate to that -because these were the ones Christ was sent to FIRST - the little flock He spoke of (and TO) are the portion from the Jews (Judah and Benjamin) who are sealed.

The other ten tribes would not have been from that particular 'fold' (Judah/Benjamin/little flock)... and so are the other sheep spoken about at that time... but that does not change anything with regard to all twelve tribes being sealed verses being of the great crowd.


Did that help at all? Or still confusing?


Peace to you,
your sister and servant, and fellow slave of Christ,
tammy

They do, which is what I was attempting to debunk in this thread.

WTBTS teaching:
little flock = 144,000
other sheep = great crowd

What I was positing initially:
little flock = Jews who put faith in Christ before he died
other sheep = everyone else

What it ended up being, based on Shelby's explanation:
little flock = those sealed from among the Jews (specifically, 12,000 from the tribe of Judah and 12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin)
other sheep = everyone else
144,000 = little flock + sealed ones of the other sheep, specifically 120,000 of the other 10 tribes of Israel

You guys are SO cute (peace to you all! ). Okay, here goes:

Little flock = Jews = 24000 = Judah and Benjamin who are sealed (as king/priests)

Other sheep = 10 tribes (120000 who are sealed as king/priests) + non-Israelite nations AND Jews (###?? who are NOT sealed and must MAKE their calling/choosing SURE and include Jews who are currently "messianic" but along with other non messianic Jews turn to JAHESHUA, their cry for help being what triggers the end of the GT and his return)

Kings/priests = Bride of Christ = the New "Jerusalem" = co-rulers with Christ over sheep who are separated from goats

Sheep = those separated from goats + those resurrected to life (including Israel not part of first resurrection)

And so ALL Israel is saved. Either as part of 144,000... great crowd... or in second resurrection. We know they're part of 144,000 because they're numbered. We know they're part of great crowd because (1) that group includes EVERY nation and (2) they are called again once the full number of the non-Israelite nations have come in.

Now I did this on my phone so if there's a typo lemme know. But I hope this helps.

Peace to you, all!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shel

Yes, dear LQ... YES!!

Peace to you, all!

Thanks, I love you ALL!!!!!


Your sister and fellow slave of our lord Jaheshua MischaJah, Kim

Something that might help:

The 144,000 are sealed. The GC are not. Thus, THEY have to make THEIR calling and choosing "sure". Because they can be "grafted OUT," both Jews/Israelites AND non-Israelites.

It is only those of the 144,000 who cannot be grafted out. They are sealed. They CAN, however, take THEMSELVES out. They can pull a "Judas" (or an Adham, if you will) and CHOOSE to leave (their choosing). Turn AWAY. And some have. They turn their faces AWAY from their TRUE "husbandly-owner," Christ... and turn TO others. As Paul wrote, "They went OUT from us."

They leave Christ... and start their OWN [belief] system, garnering followers for themselves and their paramours. Hence, THEY are "Babylon the Great," those who commit spiritual "adultery" (you can't commit adultery unless you are "married" to the one you're committing such AGAINST). Hence, they were ONCE in union with Christ, part of his Bride... and by means of their adultery "give birth" to new false systems of worship (i.e., "daughters"), which foster and foment even more spiritual adultery.

Remember, both Adham and Judas ate from the Tree of Life and thus had some semblance of a union WITH Christ. Adham, when he ate from the Tree in the Garden and Judas, when he was given the morsel which Christ said meant his flesh.

God/Christ did not reject THEM, though. These CHOSE to turn against God/Christ... and follow (an)other(s).

Peace to you, all!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellamar

Which brings up another question... I'm certain it was answered in another thread at another time, but just to be sure... and to put it all together...

Is it only the 144,000 that make up the bride of Christ?

No, I don't think so. Also, y'all have hurt my head really bad with this thread.

The Bride of Christ are: the 144 000 from every tribe of Israel... AND.... the Great Crowd that no one can number that is made up of people from every nation, tongue, people.


Peace to you both,
your sister and servant, and fellow slave of Christ,
tammy

No, luv (mornin ' and peace to you!). Our dear Lord's Bride is ALL those who "belong" to him. ALL those for whom he is "husbandly OWNER."

Hence, both the "little flock" (of Jews) and "other sheep" (120,000 from 10-tribe kingdom of Israel AND those of great crowd) ... as ONE flock... make up his Bride. They become co-ruling king-priests with him, which is why John saw ALL of these rendering SACRED service BEFORE the throne of God. The throne of God is in the MOST HOLY... which one can only enter by going THROUGH... the HOLY. Christ... is the HOLY (John 14:6 ).

I am now led by my Lord to share the following with you, dear ones:

The reason Christ is called their "husbandly OWNER"... is NOT because they are his slaves (although out of LOVE they GIVE THEMSELVES to be)... but because of the terms "husband"... which is one who engages in "HUSBANDRY."

"Husbandry"... is the CARE of land (agriculturally speaking) and livestock. Like His FATHER, Christ is a cultivator/gardener and shepherd. Since these are "branches"... "wheat"... "sheep"... and they BELONG to him (and so it is his RESPONSIBILITY to TEN to and CARE for these... nurturing and helping them grow/produce (more) FRUIT)... he is called their " HUSBANDly" owner.

A "wife" is not the PROPERTY of a husband, per se. She is a HELPMEET and COMPLEMENT. As is the Bride/Wife of Christ. He does not enslave his wife; he sets her FREE... from OTHER (husbands) who have enslaved her. Because HE loves and CHERISHES her... AS part of HIMSELF: bone of HIS bone, and flesh of HIS flesh (Ephesians 5:30 - KJV. Because he loves HIMSELF. A man who mistreat his wife does not love HIMSELF.

And note, a wife can absolutely contribute to a man's lack of self-love; she can berate him or otherwise contribute to the erosion of his self esteem. Most often, though, such lack is contributable to HIS parents and/or himself, such that the defect is HIS; he came into the relationship with it. Pride is one such defect. Things like arrogance and anger are others.

As a husband, Christ doesn't have these issues. For one, he knows his Father loves him. HIS Father contains no defect so He had none to pass on to His Son. Even so, that Son has FREE-WILL... and so could CHOOSE to be defective. Like the Adversary. Like Adham. CHOOSE pride, arrogance, anger, etc.

Christ did not choose these, though, but HUMBLED himself before God. It was a CHOICE... because he COULD chosen the same path as the Adversary and Adham. He DIDN'T... because of... LOVE. TRUE love. For the Father, for himself (and his own self-respect)... and for his WIFE. Her, to the point of giving HIS life FOR her.

Thus, UNLIKE Adham... who BLAMED his wife (AND God)... for HIS CHOSEN "defect": wanting something that was not his, to the point of taking it... before it could be GIVEN him... due to his haughtiness and arrogance (wanting to be LIKE God... versus humbling himself and accepting the "place" and status GIVEN him by God at the time). His error affected way more than himself, though. Yet, He didn't care. Why? Lack of love, lack of humility, arrogance... and pride. The latter of which goes before a fall... and he certainly fell. Because of him, ALL mankind has fallen.

BUT... we all don't have to STAY fallen, STAY down. Because Another, one whose LOVE... for God, himself, and US... came to raise us UP... any who wish to take of his GIFT. He came to call AS MANY AS DOES RECEIVE him... so as to lead them back UP... BACK to a place of LOVE... for God, for self, for others... by means of love for HIM... as the one who cares for THEM. The GOOD/FINE Shepherd... because HE exercises HIS "husbandry" kindly, tenderly, caringly, lovingly. Rather than BLAMING the sheep, EVEN for THEIR errors... he COVERS their errors... with his OWN blood.

And so HIS sheep... LISTEN... to HIS voice. They don't turn back, run away, or follow other shepherds once HE has found them (again)... but stick CLOSE and FOLLOW him. Because they KNOW he loves them, gave his life for them, has THEIR lives and best interests at heart, and so WILLINGLY make themselves his SLAVES... as a puny attempt to recompense for HIS love and a demonstration of THEIR'S for HIM.

I, SA, have shared with you dear ones hear just as I heard and received it from my dear Lord, Master, Savior, and King, the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH ( MischaJah)... and with ALL my heart hope that those with ears to hear DO hear and get the sense of these things... and that those who've yet to have ears receive them so as to hear when the Spirit and His Bride say to THEM:

"Come! Take Life's (Christ's) water... which water is the blood, breath, and seed of the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies, and is dispensed ONLY by His Son and Christ, the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH ( MischaJah )... FREE!"

"COME... ALL you who are toiling and LOADED DOWN! Take Life's water... FREE!

Servant to the Household of God, Israel, and all those who go with, and a slave of Christ,

SA

BUT... we all don't have to STAY fallen, STAY down. Because Another, one whose LOVE... for God, himself, and US... came to raise us UP... any who wish to take of his GIFT. He came to call AS MANY AS DOES RECEIVE him... so as to lead them back UP... BACK to a place of LOVE... for God, for self, for others... by means of love for HIM... as the one who cares for THEM. The GOOD/FINE Shepherd... because HE exercises HIS "husbandry" kindly, tenderly, caringly, lovingly. Rather than BLAMING the sheep, EVEN for THEIR errors... he COVERS their errors... with his OWN blood.


How wonderful and beautiful this reminder IS for us all!

Thank you for sharing,
Your sister and fellow slave of CHRIST, Kim