xjwsforChrist

Who is the woman? Who is the son born? What do the 12 stars mean? In what way did the woman flee into the wilderness?

I'm trying to make sense out of the WTBTS explanation, but it's highly flawed. The reason I am looking at that is for my own personal research. To refute their teachings, one must first know what they teach, even if it's not the truth. One major flaw is that they view the woman as:

(1) Jerusalem above (Gal 4:26), "Jerusalem above is Jehovah’s universal organization of spirit creatures that acts as his wife, both in serving him and in producing offspring." re p. 178 par. 5

AND

(2) "his witnesses" (re p. 184 par. 24): "Likewise, after the bitter persecution of 1918-19, Jehovah delivered his witnesses, as representing his woman, into a spiritual situation that was as safe for them as the desert was for the Israelites."

I was trying to find out what was taught about the "wilderness". This is it. Odd thing, though, it goes on to say this:

"In the wilderness, Jehovah brought forth the Israelites as a nation, providing for them spiritually and physically. Similarly, starting in 1919, Jehovah brought forth the seed of the woman as a spiritual nation. This is not to be confused with the Messianic Kingdom that has been ruling from the heavens since 1914. Rather, this new nation is made up of the remnant of anointed witnesses on earth, who were brought into a glorious spiritual estate in 1919. Being provided now with “their measure of food supplies at the proper time,” these were strengthened for the work that lay ahead."

Do you see an error here? The "son, a male", whom WTBTS views as the earthly part of God's Kingdom born in 1914, is actually BORN IN THE WILDERNESS (according to WTBTS)! That is NOT what the vision says. The vision says the child is born and "caught away to God", then the woman flees to the wilderness.

I may be way, way off base here, but it struck me that the woman could be Mary, the son could be Jaheshua, and the wilderness could be Egypt. Mary and Joseph were told to flee to Egypt after Jaheshua was born because Herod wanted to kill him. The astrologers saw the "star" and reported that to Herod, and he subsequently wanted to kill Jaheshua. (Matt 2:1-19). Could that "star" have been what Revelation called the "great fiery-colored dragon" who wanted to "devour her child"? I dunno... just thinking out loud here. Any thoughts?

I've done more research on this, but still haven't come to any conclusions.

The woman is arrayed the sun, had the moon beneath her feet and was crowned with 12 stars. WTBTS says this represents completeness in an organizational sense, thus represents God's universal organization. I don't buy that.

One interesting theory is that the woman represents Israel. This is because of Joseph's dream, which he related to his father, Jacob, which Jacob interpreted off the cuff.

After that he had still another dream, and he related it to his brothers: “I have had another dream. This time the sun and the moon and 11 stars were bowing down to me.” Then he related it to his father as well as his brothers, and his father rebuked him and said to him: “What is the meaning of this dream of yours? Am I as well as your mother and your brothers really going to come and bow down to the earth to you?” And his brothers grew jealous of him, but his father kept the saying in mind. - Gen 37:9-11

Thus, some say the woman represents Israel, and the 12 stars (the 11 plus 1 for Joseph) represents the twelve tribes. That kind of makes sense.

I don't get the whole wilderness and 1,260 days thing, though. Some feel this has to do with the length of the great tribulation, but I don't know about that.

Here is what our dear Lord gave to me, as to this vision, dear LQ (peace to you, dear brother!):

The "woman" is the spirit realm... "Jerusalem ABOVE"... or "Sarah"... who is the FREE "wife" of the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies... or "Abraham." She represents the ("ark")... or "womb"... or SAFE PLACE... for the "seed" that come forth to be fertilized BY JAH so as to become HIS sons. Those who belong to JAH came OUT of that "ark"... as "treasure"... into the physical realm ("hidden in earthen vessels" - the physical body)... until such time as we CAN be "fertilized" (receive JAH's "seed"... holy spirit)... which "seed" is poured out by Christ.

He (Christ) pours that seed out on those who get BACK INTO the "ark"... which we do... by means of entering into the (ark of the) NEW Covenant.

Galatians 4:21-26

"She" gives birth to a child, a male son. That "son" is, initially, Christ... who is taken away to JAH's throne... when he gives up his life. He is not DEAD... but protected (in the spirit realm) for a time. I say the child is INITIALLY Christ... because he is the HEAD of the "christ-child"... while his members are the BODY of that "son." So, the HEAD is born... which, as far as JAH is concerned, represents the entire child being born. Because so long as the head makes it into the world (and the head usually comes first)... and BREATHES... the "child" has been BORN. The rest of its body will come forth afterward.

She is "Jerusalem ABOVE"... as HER "daughter" (which is ALSO a son... as both men AND women are sons of God... AND because JAH and Christ are, like the angels, neither male NOR female, but BOTH... which is another "gender", not one or the other... as those who constitute her daughter/sons will BE)... the NEW Jerusalem"... comes down out of HER (the spirit realm)... just as a child comes from the womb of a woman during birth. Hence, through HER, an entire nation is BORN... in ONE day. Not some at this time and others at that time... but all... at one time. Except for the head... which comes first (HER child is not breach!).

The sun represents the nation of Israel (by flesh)... specifically, the 144,000 "from among the sons of Israel"... which nation... is her "GLORY" (hence, the sun - representing LIGHT and LIFE)... and these SPECIFICALLY, as FIRSTfruits... and so first in the line of king-priests "in" her...

The moon represents the nations that are not Israel (by flesh) ... specifically, those "bought from EVERY nation, tribe, tongue, and people"... who ALSO provide "light"... and so become kings and priests "in" her...

And the 12 stars represent the 12 apostles... and the FULLNESS of the 12 tribes.

Together, this entire "woman" represents the COMPLETENESS... of Y'ra'El... or "JAH'ra'El"... or "he that seeks/serves JAH as his God"... and NOT some man-made golden calf!! "She" is the entity that JAH loves... and so takes as His "FREE" wife... with whom He produces "children"... starting with Christ.

The sun (Israel), moon (nations) and 12 stars ALL bow down and do obeisance to Christ... which is what the Greater Joseph (the ONLY one second to Pharaoh, upon whom Pharaoh appointed ALL authority over ALL he had... except himself - the one the people cried out Averek! to and Pharaoh called "Zaphnathpaaneah") saw. The Lesser Joseph only saw 11 stars because he was one OF the 12. But in the vision of the woman, there are all 12 stars "crowning" her. The apostles are our dear Lord's "CROWN" of Israel's glory.

I, SA, have shared this truth with you, dear brother, just as I received it from our dear Lord, the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah).

I hope it helps and, as always, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellamar

So, WTBTS was partially right, then... the woman is Jerusalem above. They have other bits wrong. But, what you shared actually incorporates other bits that others have had right. No one (human) has had all of it right that I could find.

Question: what/where is the wilderness? And what is/when are the 1,260 days? Is this a literal amount of time?

Yes, the WTBTS does have SOME (albeit very little) truth, dear LQ (peace to you, dear one!). They have to... else the "children of [the] Light" would not be ATTRACTED to them, at all! Think: is it not BECAUSE they call themselves the "Truth" and say they HAVE truth that those who ARE... are attracted to them in the first place? If ALL they had were lies, the children of [the] Light would see THAT right away. As they would with ALL religions. But they ALL have some truth. That is how they are ABLE to mislead... if POSSIBLE, EVEN the chosen ones.

But remember, OUR dear Lord said the spirit that the Father would send, THROUGH him... would lead us... into ALL truth. Not SOME truth. Not "a little" truth. Not even "a lot" of truth. ALL truth. And so, he does, through it, as to at least one of your questions here: what is the wilderness.

Per my Lord (and I have shared this before, dear one - if not here, then on another forum), the "wilderness" is that place "between slavery and the promised 'land'." Meaning, it is the state of the children of Jerusalem (of the flesh) and Jerusalem (Above; of the SPIRIT)... between being set FREE (by JAH through Christ, who led fleshly Israel, by means of his (shekinah) light... and Who leads Israel NOW, by means of that same light, holy spirit)... and reaching that PROMISED "land" (then, the land that lied across the Jordan, with its eventual capital of Jerusalem; now, the "NEW Jerusalem.").

WE are in "the wilderness" NOW, some of us. We have been set free from OUR captor, the WTBTS ("Pharaoh") who not only enslaved us but "do(es) not know JaHVeH"... and so have had its "heart" made even MORE obstinate... but have not yet reached the Promised Land (the beloved "city" of the NEW Jerusalem). Like ancient Israel, we are wandering... following the Light/Lamb... wherever HE goes. Just as ancient Israel wandered... we "wander." While the "city" is still be built (up) this "wilderness" protects and hides us. It is OUTSIDE of slavery (religion... particularly BTG... those who are in which will NOT find "shelter/protection." Rather, they will find themselves like those of Jericho... and eventually, for sharing in "her" sins, receive part of her plagues... when "she" is devastated).

Once the beloved "city" IS complete, our wandering will cease and we will "enter" into her "gates." We are PART of that city, LIVING stones... but we also "enter" into "her." We do not "enter" until she is fully complete... which is when ALL of our dear Lord's chosen ones have been FULLY gathered (hence, the admonition, "Do not forsake the GATHERING of yourselves..." NOT meaning gathering to fellowship and sing songs/listen to talks/sermons at some church/in some building... "fellowshipping"... but to not leave off the INVITING that DOES the gathering; the saying "COME!" to ALL those wishing and thirsting, as our dear Lord did. We are, after all, AMBASSADORS, substituting FOR him. Ambassadors don't sit in buildings or stand in pulpits/at podiums/on stages, saying, "Hey, you, listen to ME!" They go out, as emissaries to sell THEIR country to OTHERS, whom they invite to COME to their country, if not as citizens then at least as tourists. They are REPRESENTATIVES of their countries and its ruler(s)... not USURPERS of that/those ruler(s) positions.

So actually GATHERING others of the Body... and not just saying they're "gathering" with words (while actually DISCOURAGING others from JOINING that "citizenship"... as the WTBTS does by discouraging folks from partaking of Christ's flesh and blood... which a means for come INTO union... and be a part of the beloved city). But DOING it... with deeds. Literally gathering other chosen ones... by "teaching them ALL the things I commanded YOU." I digress.).

While we ARE "wandering," we should NOT, however, indeed NEVER:

- Lose faith, because that can lead us to
- Murmur
- Turn on one another
- Take issue with those used to help us until we can walk (By FAITH) on our own
- Complain
- Fear, ESPECIALLY when it SEEMS we (might) run out of "food"... or come across "enemies," even those who APPEAR stronger than us
- Turn back
- Belittle the "manna" and "water" we are given to sustain us
- Belittle the training we receive to help us survive, stay strong, overcome, conquer... make it TO the promised 'land'
- Move, when we are told to stop/put up camp
- Stay, when we are told to move/strike camp
- Desire to be like the nations "around" us
- Crave and/or serve the gods of the nations "around" us... or those of our ancestors that we left behind
- Engage in things that put into question our LOVE... for JAH/our brother
- Hold something "against" our brother (we must FORGIVE our brother)
- Enslave OTHERS (we must RELEASE all others)
- NOT "devote to destruction" the things we are TOLD, by our dear Lord, to "devote to destruction" (then, it was physical things; NOW, it is SPIRITUAL things, like jealousy, hatred, anger, covetousness, murder, etc.)

We are to look at the situation of the ancient Israelites as an EXAMPLE... of what TO do... and what NOT to do... from a SPIRITUAL standpoint (which CAN play out in a physical way). If we understanding the SPIRITUAL (and that the very situation was merely a PRECURSOR to what Israel would go through SPIRITUALLY), then we can overcome and conquer as to the PHYSICAL.

Now, with all of THAT said, I have to say that I do not know the fulfillment of the 1,260 days. When they occur, or whether they are literal or symbolic. They could be either. I have not been told, nor have I had my mind/heart opened... or my current (mental powers) "expanded"... so as to know. For now, it is closed to me. And I don't mind that. As I've also shared before, my dear Lord would NEVER keep something from me... us... that I... we... SHOULD know. NEED. The Father just doesn't operate that way, and neither does His Son.

When it is time for me/us TO know... when I/we can BEAR it... or when it has some bearing if importance... we WILL be told. Until then, we have to be content with the great amount of "manna" already rained down on us.

I hope this helps, truly!

Peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellamar

Thanks for this Shelby; that is quite an eye opener.

Here is what our dear Lord gave to me, as to this vision, dear LQ (peace to you, dear brother!):

The "woman" is the spirit realm... "Jerusalem ABOVE"... or "Sarah"... who is the FREE "wife" of the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies... or "Abraham." She represents the ("ark")... or "womb"... or SAFE PLACE... for the "seed" that come forth to be fertilized BY JAH so as to become HIS sons. Those who belong to JAH came OUT of that "ark"... as "treasure"... into the physical realm ("hidden in earthen vessels" - the physical body)... until such time as we CAN be "fertilized" (receive JAH's "seed"... holy spirit)... which "seed" is poured out by Christ.

He (Christ) pours that seed out on those who get BACK INTO the "ark"... which we do... by means of entering into the (ark of the) NEW Covenant.. ( or womb until time to be born again)

"She" gives birth to a child, a male son. That "son" is, initially, Christ... who is taken away to JAH's throne... when he gives up his life. He is not DEAD... but protected (in the spirit realm) for a time. I say the child is INITIALLY Christ... because he is the HEAD of the "christ-child"... while his members are the BODY of that "son." So, the HEAD is born... which, as far as JAH is concerned, represents the entire child being born. Because so long as the head makes it into the world (and the head usually comes first)... and BREATHES... the "child" has been BORN. The rest of its body will come forth afterward.




And this is what our Lord was referring to when he was speaking to Nicodemus in John 3:1-7


Jhn 3:1
Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council.
Jhn 3:2
He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”
Jhn 3:3
Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.fn”
Jhn 3:4
“How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
Jhn 3:5
Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
Jhn 3:6
Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
Jhn 3:7
You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’

Love and peace to you all today,
Your sister and fellow servant of our Lord Jaheshua MischaJah, Kim

Yes! And Paul further clarified what our dear Lord meant, dear 'Mom (peace, luv!)... and why some don't get it:

"We, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. However, as it is written:

“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”—
the things God has prepared for those who love him—
these are the things God has revealed to us by his spirit.

His spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the spirit of God. What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the spirit that is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the spirit [of God], explaining spiritual realities with spirit-taught words. The person without the spirit does not accept the things that come from the spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the spirit. The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, for,

“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”

But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:6-16


When we lean upon our own understanding, we limit ourselves... to what humans teach. When we put FAITH in the HOLY One of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah)... who IS the Holy Spirit... and who dispenses GOD'S spirit... so that through IT... HE teaches, guides, and leads us... by putting IN us HIS "mind"... because he puts in us his BLOOD, which SPEAKS... then we are able to hear, grasp, and share with others as to these "deep" things of God.

Peace to you ALL!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellamar

Good reminder.


Peace to you,
your sister and servant, and fellow slave of Christ,
tammy