xjwsforChrist

To the Household of God, Israel, and all those who go with... may you all have peace!

The other day my Lord and I were speaking on the matter of sin. I learned something quite new and would like to share that with you, if I may. Thank you!

I cannot recall what I was taught prior to the WTBTS as to what "sin" is... except maybe things like adultery, murder, etc. As a JW, I learned that "sin" is "disobedience." I have since learned from our dear Lord that neither is exactly accurate. But I still didn't know "exactly" what it is... until now. Yesterday I learned from my Lord that sin... is error. ANY error. Intended or unintended. Let me explain:

Sin... leads to death. Sin in the flesh, that leads to death in the flesh, is error in the flesh. Error... in the physicality of the fleshly vessel. Such as sickness. Flesh without sickness in it is sinLESS. Or death. Or aging. Flesh that doesn't age... or die... is sinLESS. And it is ERROR in the biology of that flesh, that vessel... that is the "sin" that causes sickness, aging... death.

Sin also leads to destruction. Sin... or error... BY the spirit. When the spirit errs... it CAN disobey. But such error is not always disobedience. Sometimes, it's erroneous understanding. Or erroneous judgment. Erroneous intent. Erroneous... choices.

We HAVE sin in us... because the vessel that is our fleshly body... has error in it. It is not the vessel man (Adham) was initially given, but one that resulted from HIS error... or sin. Thus, all such vessels are BORN with sin... error... and so sickness, aging... death... in them.

We COMMIT sin... when we commit an error. But... when we commit ANY error, dear ones. Intentional AND unintentional. Which is why we NEED forgiveness FOR the sins we commit. My dear Lord helped me understand this by reminding me of what he said we are to do if our brother sins against us (forgive them!).

He then asked me, "If sin is merely disobedience, child, then does that not mean that any time your brother disagrees... and so disobeys YOU... he is "sinning" against you? Why would disobeying YOU, though, be a sin?"

And he is entirely right! If sin is merely "disobedience," then ANY time we do not obey someone... we are sinning against that one! So, sin CANNOT be disobedience, as we CAN sin against one another!

We DO err as to one another, sometimes often. Sometimes, in the same way. Sometimes in the same way over and over again. In that light, we are "sinning" against one another. But, as our dear Lord taught and is teaching us, to the extent we FORGIVE those who sin... trespass... ERR... against us... we are FORGIVEN.

He THEN said:

"This is why I teach you ACCURATELY, child, and to be accurate in YOUR sharing what I give you with others. Because to give your fellowman information that is ERROR... which means it is FALSE... is to SIN against that fellowman." Because you have, in essence, lied to them. Even if you didn't INTEND to lie... or sin against them." Do not, therefore, lose the skill I have taught you. You MUST be accurate as to what I give you... because you MUST share the TRUTH. Anything else is NOT from me, but is from your Adversary."

Of course, I then had to ask him/say:

"I understand, Lord. But most people don't care. They don't WANT accuracy. They often even take offense, many thinking/saying, 'Oh, what's the big deal!??'"

And he agreed with that, saying:

"You have spoken the truth, child, it is that way. But what does that have to do with YOU? Are you not following ME? So what concern is it of yours that such ones think this way? YOU... obey ME. Because I am the One leading you. To fountains of waters of life."

Of course, I said, "Of COURSE, my dear Lord!"

And so, now I know why it is SO important to HIM that ones... including me... share "just so" as to what HE shares and says. Anything less is a sin. Even if it's not intended. Because... it is an error. And so... misses the "mark" (that is put upon one by HIM).

I, SA, have shared this interchange with you, just as it occurred, as I received from my dear Lord, the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah)... and I truly hope it helps YOU... as it helped me!

Again, peace to you, all!

Your servant, as I am servant to ALL those of the Household of God, Israel, and those who go with... and a slave of Christ,

SA

It does help, thank you for sharing. In truth, it makes perfect sense. Especially, as the Spirit is reminding me, since we can see the physical example (sin/error in our flesh leading to sickness, aging, death). Just like we have the physical temple as a representation and example of the spiritual temple; so it should not be surprising to find a physical example of sin (meaning, error, in the flesh, and its consequences TO the flesh)... for the spiritual also.


Wow, that is pretty amazing!


Peace to you,
your sister, and servant, and a fellow slave of Christ,
tammy

I was about to ask a question, which was: So, then, does this mean that we should forgive when man teaches erroneous things (e.g. all the things WTBTS teaches that are false)?

I was about to ask that when I heard: "Vengeance is mine, I will repay" and "Be wrathful, but do not sin"

I'm guessing that means that we can be angry about the lies told to us, but we should forgive if we can, but they are still accountable to God. This is a hard pill to swallow.

SA,

The WTBTS taught or teaches that sin is a missing of the mark. The mark of perfection to Gods laws. The WTBTS teaches that sin is lawlessness or disobedience to Gods laws.

As for adultery and murder and so on those are laws against the flesh as you say. But are they not also sins of the spirit seeing that such thoughts come from the heart of a person? Out of the heart come forth these kinds of wicked things.

So if I understand you correctly or should I say your Lord correctly sin is disobedience. But we all disobey in some way or another, we all disobey every kind of authority, even wicked governments. Is such disobedience still sin? We disobey our parents, our teachers, secular or religious, our police, our governments, and God. Is all this disobedience sin? Who says certain authorities should be obeyed? Only that authority, right? Of course they would. OK, so sin is not disobedience.

Wait a minute. Sin is something against God or against our fellow man. In sinning against our fellow man we are thus also sinning against God. You can’t win for losing. Either way you sin.

Okay, define for me what error is, please. An error is a mistake, right? While many people commit sins and many enjoy committing sins, no one really wants to commit error, do they? In striving for right, we fail into error. So how exactly is error sin then?

So you are describing two kinds of sin. Sin in the flesh and sin in the spirit. I get that. You state that sin in the flesh causes death in the flesh. I get that. Are you saying that sin in the spirit causes death in the spirit? We know sin in the flesh and death in the flesh because we experience it every day in this world. But we don’t see or experience sin of the spirit because we don’t experience of it every day or at all. We don’t see spirits and we don’t see them die. And if we grasp this idea then we only grasp it because our religious leaders tell us about it although they themselves don’t “know” it.

Are you or your Lord saying we need not be concerned with committing sins in the flesh but only with sins of the spirit?

Should we be concerned with not committing sins of both flesh and spirit? One is just as bad as the other right?

The apostle Paul in the Bible states there is a whole listing of sins of the flesh like adultery, stealing, unlawful heterosexual acts, homosexual acts, murder, and on and on. For some reason the apostle Paul talks a lot about various kinds of sexual sins. Is there such a listing of sins of the spirit in the Bible? Is one class of sins less important than another class of sins? The bible even states that if you hate someone in your heart you’ve committed murder and thus sinned. If a man looks at a woman who is not his wife and thinks lustful thoughts he’s sinned. We fail miserably in the flesh. But does that mean we should stop concerning ourselves with committing sins of the flesh?

I’m not sure I understand you. Is God no longer concerned with sins of the flesh? But only with sins of the spirit?

Are all the things that the apostle Paul wrote here no longer valid for Christians? Is that what you’re saying?

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Is what Paul wrote inaccurate?

As for accuracy, we strive to be accurate and even though we strive for such, we sometimes err. Wasn’t intentional. We believed something, thought something true, but it wasn’t, we erred. How is that a sin? A mistake, yes, but a sin?

Wait a minute. Are you saying that for Christians, who follow Christ, the only sin is disobedience against him? What he says?

FH

That is why I cannot join with those who wish to spend their time opposing them publicly, dear LQ (peace to you!). Because I once was PART of them. And so THEIR error was, at one time, MY error, yes? Yet I want to be forgiven for that error. As one of them, I sinned against my fellow man. Every time I placed a magazine, gave a talk, went door to door, engaged in a Bible Study, responded at a meeting... studied with my own children.

Now, I ask our dear Father to forgive MY trespasses... AS I forgive those who trespass (against me). Do I condone their works? No. Their lies? Absolutely not. I can... and will... condemn the conduct and the works and the teachings. I cannot judge, let alone condemn the individuals who carryout those works, that conduct, such teachings.

Rather, I pity them. Just as JAH and Christ pitied ME (praise JAH!)... and called/led me OUT.



It is, dear brother. VERY hard, sometimes. And very bitter. But love is a great "chaser" and can help. As is/can any of the other fruits of JAH's holy spirit. Which I have to beg for... over and over... and over again. And it always provides a "cushion" for those "hard" things... and times.

Peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shel

Yes, dear FH (peace to you!). They teach that it is all of these things, but primarily that it is disobedience (they go back to Adham for that)



I'm not sure I stated that such things are sins OF the flesh, but sins AGAINST the flesh, yes. They are sins of the spirit, yes, unlike sins OF the flesh (i.e. sickness, aging, death...).



No, dear one. That is what the WTBTS says sin is. I apologize if I wasn't clear.



And that was my point, luv. I apologize if that wasn't clear.



Yes, but not sure of the problem here...



Yes. BUT... mistakes are not ALWAYS unintentional OR accidents. Right? So, while mistakes are always errors... errors aren't necessarily always mistakes. Follow?



Are you SURE about that? Does not science "want" to commit errors all the time... just to see what the result WOULD be? And not even science. How many kids... heck, adults... PURPOSEFULLY commit errors "just to see what would happen?" So, your statement is false, luv. Some really do WANT to commit error.

But let's take it further. Do not some purposefully commit error for, say, gain? Did not Adham? Judas? Do not FALSE prophets? What about people who intentionally lie? Or KNOWINGLY cheat? Bear false witness? Are not these all errors... yet INTENTIONALLY committed?



Sin is ANYTHING that misses the mark, luv. "Imperfection." It can be inherent... or CHOSEN. Unintended or intended.



Smile. Glad to hear it!



Do you recall the verse that says, "The soul that is sinning; it itself will die", dear one? Let me ask you: can a hand murder... without the spirit having directed it to? Can the mouth lie... without the spirit having directed it to? Can the body do anything in the way of sinning... without having been led by the spirit? EVEN if the spirit in question was that of, say, a child... or someone mentally ill? If the body can, is it not a sick body (i.e., one that UNWILLINGLY twitches/jerks so that another is harmed)? Your hand isn't going to just pick up a gun and shoot (someone) in and of itself, dear one. "Something" had to tell that hand to pick up the gun AND to pull the trigger.

My point? The verse isn't referring to the body. It isn't saying that the BODY that sins, it itself will die. It is saying that the SPIRIT that sins... will die. Be destroyed. Unless... it is redeemed. Covered. Saved. If we were to be held accountable for the sins of our BODIES, how is that just? How can you hold someone accountable for something he/she has absolutely NO control OVER? Are you not merely a victim, an unfortunate slave to the will of your body? Christ did not die for the sins of our body, alone, dear one, but for the sins of our spirit... which spirits are what "lead" our bodies TO sin.



Sure we do! When someone lies, that is a sin OF THE SPIRIT. When someone covets, that is a sin of the SPiRIT. When a man LOOKS at woman SO AS to have relations with her... that is a sin OF THE SPIRIT. People ie EVERY day. They covet... EVERY day. They commit adultery in their hearts... EVERY day. And we SEE or hear it. We HEAR the lie, which is the MANIFESTATION of the sin. Someone expresses their desire for what belongs to another and so MANIFESTS the sin IN their SPIRIT. A man (or woman) makes remarks... or winks... or what have you... and manifests the DESIRE of their SPIRIT. And so on....



Spirits don't die, luv. Which is why some of the confusion around that verse that the "soul" that is sinning will "die." In many places the words "soul" and "spirit" are interchanged. But they are not the same thing. The "soul" is the vessel. Body. The spirit is what resides IN the vessel, makes the vessel LIVING. Thus, a body WITH spirit in it is a LIVING soul; a body WITHOUT spirit in it is a DEAD soul.

Until they are given a white robe, the spirits for bodies that have died merely sleep when that body dies. They don't die with the body. To no longer exist, a spirit must be destroyed. By fire ("Do not fear him that can kill the body, but be in fear of him that can kill the body AND THE SPIRIT in Gehenna.")



For some, even most, this is true, yes. Not all, though.



I'm not sure we're speaking of the same things, dear one. There are sins IN the flesh... which we are born with. Sickness, aging, death. We had no choice in those and there's nothing we can do about them. We will get sick, in some way or another. We will age. And, pending the return of my dear Lord, we will die. Sins COMMITTED in the flesh... are sins OF the spirit. They are things the SPIRIT wills the flesh to do. Like COMMIT that murder. ENGAGE in that adultery. Give BIRTH to the sin that is IN us... and would STAY in us, if not FOR the commission by the flesh.

And that is the sin we must be concerned with. NOT letting anger get the master over us, so that we commit a sin and kill our brother. NOT letting the desire of our eyes or flesh get the master over us, so that we covet, or steal, or commit adultery, etc. But, with our spirit CONQUER the flesh so that it does NOT err... sin.

But we can't do that alone. Sure, we can conquer SOME things but not ALL things. Only Christ could... and only through/with him can we have OUR failures in that light... our ERRORS... or sins... covered.



Again, I'm not sure we mean the same thing as to the sins OF the flesh... and sins OF the spirit. Sins OF the flesh are not COMMITTED. They simply ARE: sickness, aging, death. We don't commit sickness. We don't commit aging. We don't commit death. And there's nothing we can do to stop either of these. We can forestall (the effects of) two of them, but that's all we can do. They WILL occur. Regardless.

Sins COMMITTED by the flesh ARE sins of the SPIRIT. Again, the flesh cannot pick up the knife and put it into someone, without the spirit directing it to do so. True, the spirit might be "influenced" somehow... or even taken over. But as long as you are coherent, your hand can't do such a thing without your SPIRIT allowing it.



I'm not sure you should take what Paul wrote as "gospel," as, unfortunately, dear Paul was in error himself quite a bit early on. In this light, James later explains when he writes about the sin starting with DESIRE:

"When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death."

So, the sins that you quote from Paul START with the SPIRIT! And Christ TOLD us that. Again:

"If a man [i]so much as looks at a woman SO AS TO HAVE RELATIONS WITH HER... he HAS COMMITTED adultery... [u]IN HIS HEART[/]."

So sin that is COMMITTED with the flesh STARTS in the heart.

What of sin that is NOT "committed" with the flesh, but is just a "natural" consequence of the error of the current vessel? For example, night emissions? Menstruation? Remember, under the Old Law, those things rendered a person "unclean." And thus, sinful. Which is why they had to wash, etc. But those weren't COMMITTED by the flesh... due to the "desires" of the spirit. They are just the result of the error IN the flesh that we now have. There is no such error with the "white robe," however; the SPIRIT body.




Of the two TYPES of sin... sin IN the flesh... and sin OF the flesh... yes and no. Yes, in that the flesh is of NO use at all, and so the sins of the flesh are of no importance. Because such cannot keep one out of the kingdom of God. Indeed, the kingdom of God is where those who are sick, who are aging/old, who are dying/dead (in the flesh)... should BE.

As for sins OF the flesh... meaning sins COMMITTED by the flesh... at either the desire and behest... or permission... of the SPIRIT... no. In that regard, sin is sin. There is no "ranking."

Nor can we do anything to FULLY eradicate with one. We CAN, however, MITIGATE both... and most particularly the second... by means of Christ. How? By means of HOLY SPIRIT, either directly (in the case of the flesh) or indirectly, via the FRUITS of the spirit... which "fruit" (love, joy, peace, faith, kindness, mildness, goodness, long-suffering, and self control) can:

1. Help us overcome when we WANT to give birth to (the) sin (that is in us); and/or
2. Help us commit "works" that manifest LOVE... for which there is NO law against... AND which COVERS a MULTITUDE of (our and others') transgressions

That "fruit" is the result of "water". Holy spirit. As branches in the Tree of Life that is Christ, holy spirit serves to "water" us... so that we can "produce" GOOD fruit. And as we are "watered" we are also disciplined, even rebuked, as dear tec (peace, luv!) mentioned elsewhere, so as to be "pruned"... and bear MORE "fruit" (of the spirit).



YES!!!



Wait. Think about what you just stated. How did such a man sin IN THE FLESH? His FLESH didn't commit adultery! His HEART... or SPIRIT... did! Which is why one MUST be careful when "listening" to PAUL... over Christ! Christ is our Leader, not Paul. Paul didn't understand a great many things early on, though he deigned to teach them. Which was a problem for the apostles and others. So, we don't look to PAUL for truth; we look to CHRIST. That doesn't mean that Paul never SHARED truth - he totally did. BUT, he often interjected his own "understanding," which he admitted to doing. But PAUL had to be taught, just like WE do... and you can see that in the progression of his letters, if you read them in the order they were written (which is NOT how they're situated in the Bible).

Paul did not receive ALL understanding during that moment on the road to Damascus, dear one. Indeed, our Lord said to Ananias:

"For I must SHOW HIM the things he MUST suffer for my name."

Paul's spiritual awakening wasn't as quick as some think/like to teach, dear one. Indeed, he almost destroyed the Corinthian congregation by teaching a DIFFERENT Christ than the Apostles and others who KNEW Christ in the flesh knew. Paul came to them directing them to judge "those on the inside." Yet, my Lord had told them, before Paul was ever even on the scene, to STOP judging. Paul finally got that when, about a year after telling the Corinthians TO judge, he wrote to the Romans, "Let's not judge one another ANY LONGER."

So, take care when putting faith in what Paul "said," dear one. If it comports with what CHRIST said, then by all means. If it DOESN'T, then remember Paul's zeal and FAITH... but discard his inaccurate teachings.



Not at ALL! We should endeavor, to the best of our ability, to conquer the desires of the flesh. But we can NEVER do so on our own. If we could, what do we need Christ FOR? If we can be PERFECT, what need to we have OF a ransom? Can we not save ourselves, we BEING perfect (i.e., withOUT sin)? Yet, Christ said:

"I came to call NOT righteous people, but SINNERS."



It depends on who you are, dear one. For those outside of the NEW Covenant... all sins are a concern. For those IN the New Covenant He is concerned with ONE thing: whether such listen to AND OBEY His Son. Because THAT One COVERS the sins of such ones. So that their sins are NOT manifest. We can try to live by and fulfill the Old Law all day long. But... if we don't KISS THE SON, it's for naught. To OBEY... is BETTER than to sacrifice. Why? Because all of this isn't ABOUT what most think it is. To know what it IS about... one must LISTEN to the One God sent to LEAD us. And He didn't sent Paul. But Paul did write, to the Romans:

"Those IN UNION WITH CHRIST... HAVE NO CONDEMNATION."



All? Absolutely not! A LOT of what Paul wrote is VERY valid, absolutely! But absolutely NOT all that Paul wrote. Remember, one must test the inspired expression. If Christ didn't judge an adulteress... who is Paul to just such a one... OR call for others to do so? Paul was in error... and he all but admitted that in his THIRD letter to the Corinthians.



In its implications, yes. You must remember: Paul was a former Pharisee... and a young man at the time he started. And, he did not walk fully with the Apostles (the 12) and that was primarily due to differences in their understanding and teaching. Paul was right when he was right... and not so right when he was not.



We often err, yes; however, we do NOT strive for accuracy. Not at ALL. We, mankind, strive... for conformity, uniformity, money, popularity, fame... all of which can be summed in our striving... for acceptance. But other humans. As a species, we don't TRULY give a hoot about accuracy, except maybe in (some) science. In almost every other accuracy is an inconvenience, even an irritant. And so in THOSE areas, we strive for a FACADE of accuracy. And sometimes even call it "truth."

Because for MOST, truth is what they WANT it to be, what is agreed to be/accepted as truth at the time/under the circumstances. Accuracy, however, is usually received as "mountain out of molehill," "no big deal," and, again, inconvenient. Folks want convenience.



Assuming you mean, say, believing the WTBTS' teachings as truth. Yes, it was an error, even unintentional... but it ABSOLUTELY WAS SIN. How so? Because it ABSOLUTELY was disobedience! How so? Let me ask you and you tell me: how many times did YOU read... "Do NOT put your trust in earthling man or in nobles..." or "This is my Son, the beloved; listen to HIM!" or "Kiss the SON lest God be angry!" or "My sheep LISTEN to my voice" or "UNLESS you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood you have NO life within yourselves" or "Separate yourselves and QUIT touching the unclean thing" or "Come to ME, all you who are toiling and loaded down," or "You must LOVE your enemy and PRAY for them" or "Come, take life's water FREE!" or... or... or...

and did you OBEY? ANY of these? Any that you DISOBEYED was a SIN. Because it was an ERROR. Sure, you didn't MEAN to disobey/sin... any more than, say, you meant to run your car into a tree. BOTH, however, are errors. The error of DISOBEYING God, however, IS A SIN.

Now, sin is NOT disobedience; however, disobedience IS sin. Sin... is ERROR. And disobeying GOD... is an error... and therefore a sin. However, disobeying IN AND OF ITSELF... is not a sin. Only when the disobedience is to JAH. Otherwise, it's just disobedience. ERROR, however, is ALWAYS sin. It just means falling short "of the mark." Whether than shortfall is intended OR NOT.



Not quite. The only sin that is DISOBEDIENCE, is disobeying JAH/Christ. Other disobedience is NOT (a) sin... and so sin CANNOT be merely disobedience, as the WTBTS asserts. Let me show you in a logic format:

ALL sin is error.
SOME disobedience is error.
ALL error is sin.

So, one CAN be disobedient... for example, to one's brother... yet not be committing a sin AGAINST one's brother in doing so.
One can commit a sin against one's brother that has nothing to DO with disobedience.
That sin... is an error. The error against one's brother... is that sin.

So, contrary to the WTBTS teaching that sin "is disobedience (to JAH)," it is actually ALL error, INCLUDING but not limited to disobedience to JAH. Disobedience to JAH is only one form of sin... but as with ALL sin... it is an ERROR.

Do not allow yourself to get hung up on one of man's interpretations for sin, dear one. The one that says "error" is an "accident." SOME errors are accidents. Some are not. The ones committed by our Adversary, the man Adham, the man Cain, the man Judas, and others... although errors... were NOT accidents.

I hope this helps, truly!

Again, peace to you!

Your servant and a slave of Christ,

Shellamar