xjwsforChrist

KASSAD SAID

Hi guys,

I have some verses that have stumbled in recently, just want to ask on your interpretations on this?

From my end, I see it as the greatness of grace and mercy of God, and the Good News (much of which is still waiting its fulfillment in the future), that those who profess their faith in Christ even just initially, and then stumbled along the way, will also be saved. Satan has no power in their final judgement in any way (it is up to Christ), but is now used as a means of a teacher to those who still dares to indulge in sin after being shown favor. As in the case of the man who committed fornication, mentioned in the church of Corinthians, this discipline indeed proved fruitful and he later repented in this life, and was forgiven by the church. It appears to me that in the future, even these people (after experiencing the pain brought about by Satan and also by themselves) will be shown the most undeserved mercy.

Just want to ask on your thoughts on this? I know this is not that important to invest much effort into, but I'm just a little curious about it, and wanted to correct my interpretation in case it's misguided.


Quote:
hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord. - 1 Cor 5:5


Quote:
Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme. - 1 Tim 1:20


Quote:
their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. - 1 Cor 3:13-15


Quote:
And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. - Matt 12:31


Quote:
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe. 1 Timothy 4:10

ANNEB SAID

All but one of the verses you cited were written by Paul, and, imo, he wrote in a certain style that, again imo, might not have always made things completely clear. For instance, did Paul really have the power to hand people over to Satan, or was he just trying to say he wasn't going to try with them any more, that he was going to let "life" teach them a lesson?

I've recently run across an online "talk" by someone named Collins, who advances the notion that *everyone* will be saved before all is said and done. His basic premise is that God owns all of us and certainly isn't going to hand any of us over to Satan mainly because that would give Satan a victory. I'm leaving a lot out here, but Collins says, and backs up with verses, that the timeline is more stretched out than most believers realize, and that Jesus is going to work on and with each person until they finally see the light, no matter how long it takes ("aeons" is the key word).

I don't know how Collins' thoughts fit with the verse you cited from Matthew; I'd have to think on that for more time than I have right now to devote to it, although I want to, since it will be a "test" of the truthfulness of Collins' words.

The thing to remember, as I see it, is that the citations you listed were written to people living during a certain time, imbued with a certain hope. The words have come down to us today but that doesn't mean they are meant for us precisely as they were meant for the people who lived then. I know this leads into a whole 'nuther topic, sorry for that; I don't want to complicate things, just add in a factor that I believe needs to be considered.

My little contribution, hope it helps!
_________________
Everything that I believe today is subject to change as I acquire knowledge, perspective, and direction. I'm on a journey and this is a journal...

KASSAD SAID

thanks anne! yes, i agree some of Paul's letters are open to a lot of interpretation without considering the proper context. Peter also mentioned the fact on his second letter, that even then, some are already distorting Paul's message to their advantage...

after further readings, it looks like i was badly mistaken with these verses, Heb 10:26-31

AGUEST SAID


Greetings, dear Kassad... and peace to you!

I hadn't responded to your post because I honestly did not know the answer. Until tonight. I am not sure how you relate them to Hebrews 10:26-31... but here is what occurred and how I know what I do now:

I had a rather "testy" afternoon on another site. There is one (well, several, but a particular one) who believes it his vocation to "torment" me and others of the Body. I can usually look past him (I find him quite childish), but today, in aiming at me, he took aim at my daughter. Now, if you knew my daughter you would know that she is one of THE most tolerant, accepting, kind, and sweet persons on the planet. She is a singer/songwriter who often does charity performances to help in her community. She never says no, regardless of what the event is for and so has helped raise LOTS of money for everything from a church needing to rebuild after a fire, to blood drives, to Habitat for Humanity, to homelessness and more.

She and her brother (my son) have worked together on SO many community events (even for shelter animals!) that they are both well-known among both the young people in their community... and city leaders. My son was named one of his town's "30 Under 30" recipients and has received two awards from the California State Senate for his work mentoring youth.

I don't say all of this to brag but to say my children don't deserve to be bad-mouthed because of someone's issues with me. I took it for granted that this yahoo would have the decency to keep one's family off limits. Of course, he isn't decent... so I should have known better.

I digress.

Anyway, I was SO angry that I thought... in my heart... "Ohh! I wish his life was more ruined that it already is!!" Yeah, sad to say, I went there. Of course, I immediately felt regret, but not before my Lord asked me:

"Is that TRULY what you want, child?" and reminded me of what having his spirit can mean... the authority it can wield. (John 20:22, 23)

I immediately responded, "No! No! I didn't mean that, I only meant... well, I just want him to leave me BE!"

And the rest of the conversation went like this:

"He can't stop tormenting you, child. The one to whom he belongs right now... because of the spirit that leads HIM... won't let him. He has given himself over... and that's how he will be used... to torment my Body. So long as he allows it."

I knew he was right... and I felt horrible for this person, because I know he doesn't WANT to be like he is... but is (currently) powerless to stop it. He won't ever be able to... until he stops allowing access. And he can't do that, yet. Anyway the conversation continued. My Lord asked me:

"So what DO you want regarding this one?"

I know better to try and fool my Lord (he knows what it's in me), and so try to ALWAYS be honest. So I said:

"I don't want to care anymore. I want to be done."

He said, "So you want to hand him over to the Adversary?"

And I thought, "What? No, I don't want to do THAT... well, not really."

He asked me, "But isn't that what you will be doing... if you give up and no longer care?"

I thought some more and said, "Is it? I mean, I don't want to give him to the Adversary; I just don't want to care about him anymore."

And he said, "Child, if YOU give up... that's exactly what will happen. He doesn't care about me right now because he's too caught up in his anger and hurt. He's not mad at you; he's mad at me and the Father. He blames us for his lot in life... like HIS father before him. He is only being handling his life as he has been taught to handle it. He can't bring himself to place blame where he should... or worse... to forgive. If you give up... from whom else will he learn... until he learns to come to me? He won't come to me yet - he can't hear me through his anger and self hatred. Perhaps if you hang on, though... But, of course, it's YOUR choice. Just tell me what you choose."

And I knew he was right. That if I gave up on this one... even only IN MY HEART... I would not only be turning my back on him... but turning him over to the Advesary. And guess what? I can do that, if I want to! Indeed, it's okay - I have that authority.

BUT... I can't do it. Paul may have been able to... but I can't. Because it isn't what I would want done to me. This person gets really ugly in his tormenting sometimes. But I can't just walk away. Not yet.

And, yes, I thought about it, because I thought, "What is this? Am I perhaps some kind of "glutton for punishment"? But nope, that's not it. What IS it is that just as I hear my Lord's voice... by means of the gift he gave me... the one that allows me to hear spirits... I can hear this person's "voice", too. Underneath all of the malice and other malintended statements... I can hear the "real" him. I wish I DIDN'T, yes... because it would be SO much easier - I COULD just turn him over. But I do hear him... calling for help. And so I can't do it. Not yet, anyway.

And so, I wanted to share that with you, to help you "see" what Paul meant. I am sure that Paul faced a similar situation and, having come to the point where NO amount of praying or patience on his part could undue the persons in question's pursuit... he realized that if he did NOT give the person up... he would most probably follow them.

I fear that, too... but I know I am nowhere near that point.

I hope this helps.

Again. peace to you!

YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

KASSAD SAID

hi aguest, thanks for sharing your thoughts, very interesting! Some of Paul's words like these are really hard to understand, shouldn't really bothered but was pressed with curiosity. With regards to the person that's been giving you trouble, i guess this boils down to the admonition of "praying for those who despitefully use you and persecute you", "do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good", "be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect".

Always easier said than done, and we can never hope to do it without the Holy Spirit. IMHO, we should always be merciful, however hard because every now and then we too fall into pitfalls and transgressions while still in this body (at least it is true in my case, there is a weakness i am trying to overcome but not yet been able to do so until now), and we would like to receive the same mercy then.

peace to you, AGuest you know you are doing something right if people are persecuting you because of Christ. the apostles rejoiced because of this. Acts 5:41

PSACRAMENTO SAID

That Paul's words were at times confusing is clear by the fact that even Peter remarked it to be so and warned that some can twist his words ( a warning for us too so that when we speak we should be clear so as to not allow others to twist our words).
First off, Paul was writing to those he KNEW and that KNEW him and how he spoke.
Paul tended to write about specifics BUT in a general way, like some parents do when they ream one kid but mention ALL their kids.
There is goo and bad int his of course, even more so when it is being read 2000 years after it was written.

To hand someone over to Satan is to hand them over to their own will.
Satan is our adversary, not God's, and people that are adversarial are "satans" ( adversaries) and there are times when we may have to say to them, "Thy will be done" and allow them to make their own bed and lay in it.
IT is important to note that Paul is speaking of those that were IN the faith and KNEW the faith but still left it.
They choose the will of ANOTHER, of THEMSELVES< over the will of God.
SO be it.

AGUEST SAID

You are both right, dear Kassad and Paul (good morning and peace to you, both!). I usually don't let the opposers get to me - I think the fact that my daughter was brought into it... as well as a (former?) friend seems to now be joining them... was a bit much to handle at the same time.

I want to turn this individual over to himself... to some degree even if that means turning him over to the Adversary - I cannot lie. But... every so often he feels regret and TRIES to be peaceful (I base this on previous exchanges and PMs). That he never really succeeds isn't, in my mind and heart, reason to give up... yet. He can't succeed until he overcomes what's controlling HIM... the "spirits". And I mean that in more than one way.

But I am "better" this morning. I haven't read anything lately, so that might change (LOLOLOL!). No, I have resolved in MY heart to move on - today is a new day. If/when it gets to the point that I MUST give him over... then I will do so with a clean conscience. Right now, that wouldn't be the case.

But thank YOU both... for your very kind and VERY encouraging words! I HEAR you... and will try to heed what you share... because it is truth.

Peace to you both... and to your dear households!

YOUR servant, sister, and fellow slave of Christ,

SA

JUSTMOM SAID

Good morning Shelby

I am glad you are having a better morning, I am truly sorry that individuals allow themselves to be used by our adversary to hit us where he knows we are the weakest and that is through our children. As a mother it is the hardest place to hit.

But you need not worry as your children are ones to be proud of and have a loving giving spirit about them that many may never experience with even their own children sad to say.

So yes this person picked on the wrong children and it is true evidence of their misery and unhappiness they are living right now because they are blaming the wrong individuals for ultimate disappointments in their lives feeling so many wasted years.

it is difficult when we get tired to not take it personally and our lord understands.

My prayer is that holy spirit continues to give you the strength and endurance and joy and peace to continue in your ministry.


You are loved by your true family ....the body of Christ

Love Justmom

KASSAD SAID

Hey Paul, that actually makes sense. Thanks

AGuest, a little quote:

When another person makes you suffer, it is because he suffers deeply within himself, and his suffering is spilling over. He does not need punishment; he needs help. That's the message he is sending.

TEC SAID

This is a really good thread. I never thought about it that way... that wanting not to care is like handing the person over. I, too, have wanted not to care... I consider it a weakness of love on my behalf that I can do this if I choose to do it. I pray to keep caring, even if it hurts (or gets annoying as all hell, lol)... because otherwise I can be a pretty selfish person.

All that being said... taking a shot at a mom's child... you are asking for whatever comes verbally back at you

(and tends to lead to the thought that someone might be using someone you love as a sure-fire way to hurt or take a jab at you you)

I, too, am glad you're feeling better today, Shelby. Your children are amazing (okay so they're not children anymore, but still)... and anyone would be humbled by and proud of them.

Peace to you,
tammy

LOZ SAID

Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:11 pm Post subject:
I think it's totally out of order that Shelby's family were brought up in the midst of an argument, just to hurt her. He may be hurting but if any believer had done this, all hell would've broken out against us.

Loz x
_________________
Don't let anyone put you down, and don't do it to yourself.

MEDEWTYSENU SAID

Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:09 pm Post subject:
I consider all trials I undergo to be training for what is to come.

How can I be fit to judge others with Love in the future if I am unwilling to give Love freely in the present by being forgiving and not trying to understand what they might be going through?

To be honest it's quite difficult sometimes but I remember that my Lord and Master freely forgave me, then how could I do any less?

Where I live presently my brother in law has a problem with prescription medication for which he has not been prescribed. He often steals my Sister's meds (his wife) and then forgets he did so, accusing her of being the addict and not himself. I love my brother in law but I find it difficult to deal with him most days when he threatens to kill me for the slightest perceived error. I say perceived because when he calms down and thinks about things he realizes that it was he that made the error and I was being kind to him.

He once asked me why I am so kind to him when he knows he is quite mean to me.

I answered" Because my Lord and Master Jesus Christ commands that we love one another as we love ourselves." No matter what my BiL may do to me, there is simply no excuse for me to return that evil, especially when I have been forgiven so much.

YSand FSoC
Morgan
_________________
"Those that matter don't mind and those that mind don't matter"--Dr. Seuss

JUSTMOM SAID

Dearest Morgan and Hello....

Your comments are always so encouraging and accurate as to our Lord and master. Thank you for that reminder Morgan

I am truly sorry for your challenges with your family but yes it is truly preparation to see how willing we are and how far we would be willing to go to love and forgive ALL.

I know Shelby realizes this, just somedays we are reminded that we are still human with its weaknesses.

Have a great day...
Love Justmom

MEDEWTYSENU SAID

Oh I know for sure Shelby knows this as it was she via telephone who helped me to see it. I was ready to just forget about this man and leave, but she gave me perspective and my Lord gave me Courage.

YSand FSofC

Morgan
_________________
"Those that matter don't mind and those that mind don't matter"--Dr. Seuss

AGUEST SAID

You give me WAY too much credit, dear MS (peace to you... and to you all... and THANK you, all!). I am glad you have been given the strength and courage to endure what you are... but my concern for you has not ceased. Hence, you are definitely in my prayers.

Indeed, you ALL are: I try to remember each one... and his/her household... by name. Unfortunately, I sometimes fall asleep before making the "circuit" - LOLOLOLOL! I have them all written down so that I can go through the "list"... but sometimes forget that. So, I just say "all those in the earth who call upon your name out of a pure heart, particularly those of your Body..." LOLOLOLOL! Sort of a "blanket" request (but I do name names when it's a specific matter).

Anyway... again, thank you. Yes, I was UPSET... but again, I'm not sure if it was the words as to my daughter... or the contention with another (friend?). I think it was having both occur at the same time... and that "friend", who's met my daughter... overlooking it while seemingly to call on others to "check" their "teammates." I thought, "Okay, you're mad at me, right now, but really?? NO WAY I would have remained silent if a believer had spoken ill of her daughter... whom I've met and believe to be a LOVELY young lady. I just didn't understand the... well, I don't know what to call it, but it really threw me. I thought, "No WONDER JAH gets sick of Israel! Is there NO true loyalty?! I mean, okay, so you're mad at me... but my DAUGHTER? What in the world does SHE have to do with this... and where are your cahones so as to "check" your "boy"?"

But... you all are right: WE are the ones called to love... and forgive... not them. WE are ones who will inherit a kingdom rulership and priesthood and so WE must show OURSELVES perfect... in love (because there's no other way we can do it, is there?)... as our dear Father is perfect. And merciful. Not them. The kingdom is not something they are seeking, but it is what we are seeking... and IT'S righteousness.

So... I hear you... ALL. Good advice and encouragement... and I thank each and every one of you for it! Thank YOU... for letting me blow off my "steam" about it, here. I would love to be one of those people who can keep what's in their heart... good OR bad... in... but, alas, I'm not. The "abundance"... whatever it... always seems to "leak" out... if not projectile out - LOLOLOL!

Peace, my dear, dear brothers and sisters! You ARE a refreshment, don't you EVER doubt it!

YOUR servant, sister, fellow slave of Christ... and/or friend...

SA