xjwsforChrist

YPPUPLLEH SAID

And now I shall resurrect this thread

I've been having an internal dialogue for several days now on whether or not to continue or just let the conversation slumber . A few tangential subjects were introduced into the argument such as the pronunciation of Jesus/Jaheshua, beginning of life in a fetus, and so on. I've been thinking of ways to approach this current topic and back and forth without assuming the "I am right and others are wrong" stance which is a very natural situation.

Admittedly and graciously you have softened your position and accepted the possibility of not recieving all the information or understanding all the information that has been given to you through God. The analogy of the reams of transparencies clouding up the real image or text at the bottom of the stack is given. Pages are peeled away and a clearer image is discerned but there are still more pages to tear away to get at the truth.

Here is a quote of myself and you:

Quote:
Hellpuppy: How much anguish by others could have been prevented if instead of saying "cremation destroys the Spirit" we say that cremation does not destroy the Spirit?

AGuest: So, you’re suggesting that we lie to folks in order not to cause them anguish. Isn’t that what religion does... indeed, is for? To tell God’s people “there is peace... when there is no peace"? What, though, if that is not the TRUTH?

EndQuote
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I am not suggesting that we lie to folks. But it seems that some of my truths are your lies and some of your truths are my lies. I would not even use the word "lie" as that has undertones of willful and conscious deception. When I say that the spirit is not destroyed by cremation I am not lying or engaging in willful deception. I am expressing what I believe to be true. It may be that you see myself as being misguided or a poor lost soul that is unable to have a dialogue with god

Some have used, as a litmus test, the saying that if it is born of love or expresses love then it is of God. I also do not hold to that mode of thinking as it simplifies God and compartmentalizes God into our own desire of who we wish God to be. Does God get angry? Does he become happy? What of fear and boredom? Why do we place limits upon God? Until either of us recieves further insight or outside knowledge I believe that we are at an impasse

All of my information and my opinions stem from myself. I take ownership of my views and beliefs. I do not speak for God. I may share my interpretations of what I see with others but they are just my interpretations. I may sometimes feel that he may be leading me somewhere that results in serendipitous clarity but short of the sky opening up, angelic heralds flying through blasting horns, and my face melting from the unfathomable gaze of God, I can never really say that "God said this" or "He told me to share this".

I can only go on what i personally believe.
_________________
Love is a warm rubber puppy...

CHARIKLO SAID

That's a very interesting and cogent piece of writing, Pup.

Would it be reasonable to assume that the fundamental key to your thinking here, specifically on the cremation issue, lies in the idea that the spirit, being non-physical, must logically transcend the physical and exist apart from it? And thus, that the spirit must be indestructible when it comes to physical processes?

The thought then occurs to me that the intrinsic, fundamental nature of fire might be something more than merely physical, but that might be to sidetrack us just for now.

I ask purely for clarification. I am not making any point at all in asking. Just clarifying, seeking to understand both avenues of thought more fully.

YPPUPLLEH SAID

As I currently understand it fire is a known process of chemical reactions that involves oxidation. I can create fire I can put it out. I can master it and control it. It can be, and has been, argued that in the past, fire is seen as mystical and an elemental miraculous force of supernatural origin I'm sure that even in the times of Moses that people did not hold fire as sacred as they understood it. Perhaps during the caveman times ;P It has been argued that our current understanding of the spirit is likened to our ancestors' understanding of fire. That we currently are relearning what the ancients knew.

Are we able to create a spirit? You are correct in that I do believe that the spirit transcends the physical realm. I ask you what do you believe is the intrinsic, fundamental nature of fire? To further clarify and possibly head off future confusion I consider the spirit and the soul to be the same. If the spirit can be destroyed by earthly means then God can easily be taken out of the equation when it comes to death. It would be an Atheist's validation. To escape the idea of suffering in hell all we would need to do is jump into a bonfire and then pass into nothingness.
_________________
Love is a warm rubber puppy...

GLADIATOR SAID

Some interesting points Hellpuppy. I have been following this thread with disbelief. Well that is what disbelievers generally do. It does seem strange that an all powerful God would allow fire to destroy spirit.

What became of all those people who were burnt at the stake for their Christian beliefs? Why are spirits in hell not destroyed by fire? As so many people are now cremated it looks like God is going to run low on souls to judge.

Fortunately for me I don't have a god or a spirit so my life is a lot simpler and I can sleep at night.

PSACRAMENTO SAID

It is important to understand that this site does indeed allow and most certainly welcomes, different view points ( regardless of what others may say about it).
I do not agree with the view that any fire kills the spirit ( it is my understanding that only the fire from God or "in hell" can do that) BUT that is OK, we do NOT have to agree on every single interpretation that another believer has.
In the end we will all KNOW for sure.
I know that in some circles it has become fashionable to state that we all follow Shelby, ignoring the fact that we have people here that are agnostic ( Outlaw and Glad), eclectic (sab) and orthodox ( myself) and that we do NOT all agree with Shelby's interpretations, though we certainly welcome them and respect them.

It's ok to have different views about things that are not stated explicitly in the scriptures.
Its ok to have different views about the things that need to be interpreted.

Some one once asked my on another forum, which interpretation is correct? how does one know which one is correct?

I said, that is a whole new thread !!! LOL !

But, in short, it falls on the individual to decide for themselves because, after all is said and done, it is YOUR life.

YPPUPLLEH SAID


Plus I like Shelby ;p
_________________
Love is a warm rubber puppy...

CHARIKLO SAID

I like Shelby too. A lot.

The way I see it, I had never thought that fire would destroy the Spirit...but I don't know. I find Shelby to be right on many things. Her insights are astonishing in pinpoint accuracy, and in touching my heart in the most unexpected ways. Her instinctive reaction to many things and many situations rings absolutely true, sometimes again in unexpected ways.

I have never felt very happy with cremations, although as I've said before, because several people I've loved, including family, have been cremated I don't like to think of their spirit being destroyed...and that doesn't feel quite right.

But on balance, I am inclined to think that the information and insights that Shelby receives are more true than not, and that maybe a fullness of understanding is yet to come.

So, I'm content with that. It feels OK to me.

AGUEST SAID

(Smile) Good morning... and peace to you all!

I had started to respond here but my Lord said that, no, it was not for the general public but those of US who've commented and voiced concerns here. So, I have responded here:


To anyone that might have been offended or experienced some anguish over what I shared, I offer my sincere apologies. I cannot change it... because it is the truth; however, I would NEVER want to hurt you, ever.

I hope my response explains, if not allows you to grant me a little bit of benefit of the doubt. If not, no worries - we all "grow" at different paces and that's really all that this is about.

Again, peace to you... truly!

Your servant and a slave of Christ... who likes (and loves) ALL of you dear ones... as you are truly some dear, dear people... to me, but more importantly to my Lord and to my Father,

SA