xjwsforChrist

LEANN SAID

We don't concern ourselves with the fate of the cocoon when the butterfly takes flight.

AGUEST SAID

Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 4:13 pm Post subject:
I am not sure if that's true for all "butterflies," though, dear LeAnn (the greatest of love and peace to you, dear one!). For those who take part in the first resurrection it might not be a concern (such are raised to spirit bodies; however, I have not heard whether they are raised physical and then "changed"... as those who are alive when our dear Lord returns are. I have always thought they were so raised (immediately to spirit bodies).

However, for those who take part in the second resurrection... it seems to me that the "cocoon" is... well, "recycled" (reutlized?) is the word that comes to mind. As per Ezekiel's vision. Such one's must be raised up and have their names read... THEN receive their "white robes."

So, okay, if one's hope is in the first resurrection maybe no reason for concern. But... while one's hope (and thus one's FAITH) is in that event... should one, I dunno, disregard JAH's intent for the body (which was NOT destruction by fire!)? All things are lawful, yes, but not necessarily advantageous. Is it possible that folks will look to those who (they believe) will take part in the first resurrection for the example?

I do hear what you're saying, truly. And I would never try to put anyone back under (any) Law, but only share what I received. Each one must decide for himself/herself. My personal thinking, though, is that if I do it, or anything I have come to know isn't... mmmmm... "pleasing"... to JAH/Christ... could THAT not present a means to "stumble" others who, although perhaps not having the first hope... have the second?

The Body, while sometimes hesitating, never stumbles. Not over Christ, at least. But others certainly do. Could we play a part in that?

Please let me know your thoughts? As you know I am most interested.

Again, peace to you!

YOUR servant, sister, and fellow slave of Christ,

SA

YPPUPLLEH SAID



Ash can make great fertilizer
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Love is a warm rubber puppy...

AGUEST SAID

True, dear HP (the greatest of love and peace to you!) but it is the soil that is fertilized, yes? And a decaying body can fertilize even more so (not sure about this one, but I think so...)?

Even so, apparently [some] Jews believe that ash is good for nothing and so explain their opposition to cremation in that way. That's because (1) they need to justify their opposition to those who don't understand the difference (why bury not cremate), because (2) they don't understand WHY the admonitions against it (had nothing to do with dust vs. ash... but life of the spirit even after the body has died... vs. its utter destruction).

This reasoning (dust vs. ash to support burial over cremation) is yet another reason why my Lord said "Woe to you... scribes!" In turning away from JAH, those who purported to "write Law"... wrote what they THOUGHT some things were/meant... rather than what they truly meant/were.

Again, peace to you!

YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

SA

LEANN SAID

Shelby,

Much love to you my sister.

I'm afraid I dont have much to add to my comment. I know that if there seems to be a varience in our viewpoint our Lord will shortly change that for the better.

But all remains the same as we share a love and purpose.

Much love and peace,
LeAnn

AGUEST SAID


Indeed, dear LeAnn (peace to you, my dear, dear sister!). Gives a whole new meaning to "Wait on JAH", yes? LOLOLOL! And we, the Body, well know how to do just that!

Thank YOU, my dear one, and again peace to you!

YOUR servant, sister, and fellow slave of Christ,

SA

YPPUPLLEH SAID



Baby teeth do not contain any marrow or bone
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Love is a warm rubber puppy...

AGUEST SAID

Perhaps not dear HP (peace to you and yours!) but I don't think anyone has said that. Dear tec (peace to you as we'll!) can correct me if I'm wrong but I think her point is that milk teeth (baby teeth) contain the same stem cells as, say, cord blood... and that since the life is in the blood and blood is manufactured by marrow so are these cells. Since they are in teeth, then, and teeth have some of the same properties as bone (and, like bone, don't decay)... perhaps the spirit is in the cells in the blood/bone... AND milk teeth?

She'll have to weigh in, of course, but I'm pretty sure that's what the thing is and I believe it's accurate. I think that we think people of old didn't know a great many things that they really did and we think they are "new" because of recent research and/or technology. But really, there really ISN'T anything new... except OUR (modern/western) understanding

Again, peace to you!

YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

SA

YPPUPLLEH SAID

This is stretching a bit If the Spirit is attached to stem cells then what happens when the stem cells divide, specialize and become whatever matter they are destined to be?

When a stem cell dies does it still contain the Spirit? A stem cell is just a cell like any other that isn't specialized yet. I don't see why people here are attaching the Spirit to a cell.

What I see happening here is people trying to make a religious idea fit into a scientific framework. Square peg round hole.
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Love is a warm rubber puppy...

AGUEST SAID


Again, I can't respond for dear tec, dear HP (peace to you, both!), so she'll have to explain what she heard/meant. Although I realize Wikipedia isn't the best source, it's a pretty fast "source"... and so I found this there (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/stem_cells):

1.Bone marrow, which requires extraction by harvesting, that is, drilling into bone (typically the femur or iliac crest),

2.Adipose tissue (lipid cells), which requires extraction by liposuction, and

3.Blood, which requires extraction through pheresis,
wherein blood is drawn from the donor (similar to a blood donation), passed through a machine that extracts the stem cells and returns other portions of the blood to the donor. Stem cells can also be taken from umbilical cord blood just after birth. Of all stem cell types, autologous harvesting involves the least risk. By definition, autologous cells are obtained from one's own body, just as one may bank his or her own blood for elective surgical procedures."

I also found this:

"An extremely rich source for mesenchymal stem cells is the developing tooth bud of the mandibular third molar. While considered multipotent, they may prove to be pluripotent. The stem cells eventually form enamel, dentin, blood vessels, dental pulp, nervous tissues, including a minimum of 29 different unique end organs."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesenchymal_stem_cell

But certain comments in this article was the most interesting to me:

"For bone, [he] hypothesized that these stem cells from a baby tooth are the ones that result in the bone that is put down around the new permanent tooth as it comes in. These stem cells give the order to "make bone," so they've got the blueprint in them. He felt that they could be given cues to induce bone formation.

"As for neural tissue, the stem cells from teeth share a common origin with neural tissue."

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/8140957/n ... ife-saver/

What this seems to be saying to ME is that bone... which manufactures blood... can be re(formulated) by stem cells from these baby teeth. Now, I get that modern thinking is that the tooth must come out naturally, and then be properly stored (in a proper culture, like milk) before it loses calcification and the cells die. But the thing is that it mentions forming BONE (and nerves)!

What if enough "life" exists in those cells... cells that WE believe are dead (and, perhaps for OUR purposes ARE dead)... for JAH to use... to form bone, which in turn forms marrow... which in turn forms... blood?

All I can ask is that perhaps you consider keeping an open mind and that perhaps science will one day "discover" some things related to how man started (?)... these cells... bone... marrow... and blood... that they haven't thought of... yet. I certainly don't know ANYTHING about the science of these things. I only know what I heard from my Lord and that is that the life is in the blood... which is in the bones (because it's manufactured by the marrow in those bones, which science corroborates).

Think of this, though: science has only really made the connection between bone, blood, marrow... and now stem cells... in less than the past 100 or so years. Yet, my understanding of the relationship of these (now, even including stem cells) from Someone who told me about... and helped me understand... some thing written several millenia ago. Just in words that SEEM primitive to us, now, but weren't... at the time they were written down.

But please don't lose sleep over it, dear one. It wasn't shared to cause you concern but to help those who wish to understand JAH's mercy: with Him NOTHING is impossible and for some of us, this just shows how something that we may have though IMPOSSIBLE... may not be after all.

I hope this helps and, again, peace to you!

YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

SA

YPPUPLLEH SAID

I'm up so will respond I also eagerly anticipate TEC's perspective on this. On stem cells and their ability to produce marrow which leads to blood which is were life comes from.

Why not go a few steps above the stem cell and look at the single cell, double cell, four cell, eight cell, 16 cell and morula, blastocyst, gastrula stage of embryos? You linked a wiki article on the mesenchyme cells that lead to stem cells and the mesoderm is the inner layer of the gastrula that further divides into the muscle, spine, bones, blood, etc. Wouldn't the precursor of these cells also carry the Spirit? What magical switch in a cell enables it to cross from normal cell into "Spirit" containing cell?

I have had a fair amount of experience in vertebrate embryology during my college career so I have a fair understanding of the processes I don't think there is a need to validate religious beliefs by melding them with science. This stemcell/baby teeth/marrow/Spirit/Life argument seems to be, for the most part, to me, a way to give substance to your belief that fire destroys the Spirit and cremation leads to the destruction of the Spirit.

I've been open minded about the possibility that your statements contain truth. On the flipside you have to be open minded about the possibility that you also may be mistaken or have interpreted the teachings that the Lord, JAH of Armies, have given you the wrong way. In the spirit of open mindedness it could also be entertained that the messages your Lord gives you differ from the messages my Lord gives me and they are contradictory to each other so we may both be right. The truth is that it dosen't really matter whether or not the Spirit is contained within the bones, stem cells, etc. A person that lives their life worshipping Jesus, following His teachings, and dies a firm believer will not be denied an afterlife if people decide to cremate or vaporize his bones, teeth, and everything. Why is the focus on this small particular of Fire and Spirit and not the greater vision of Jesus and everlasting life?

As always, I'm discussing and not attacking and wish you all the best and healthiest of life ;D
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Love is a warm rubber puppy...

ZOE SAID

AMEN!

JUSTMOM SAID



Good Morning
and thank you for all this understanding as I apologize much of it goes over my head. But I would like to share what I have heard on this question as the answer must be simple for me to process it. That "magical switch" is JAH'S BREATH, as it is HIS SPIRIT that gives LIFE.




And for me, I have to keep my faith in this! That NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE for Jah! However he chooses to show mercy is not for me to question.

Justmom

AGUEST SAID


I'm up so will respond I also eagerly anticipate TEC's perspective on this. On stem cells and their ability to produce marrow which leads to blood which is were life comes from.

Yes, me as well, dear one (good morning and peace to you!). First, PLEASE know that I have not taken ANYTHING you've presented as an attack, in no way, shape, for form. I DO consider this a discussion and am immensely enjoying it actually. Because I am learning, too! So, absolutely NO worries there, none at all! Now, then:


I can't say as to the first part of your question (why not go...?) but if single cell has life in IT, then I would think there is life in what it becomes, as well. As to the second part, I am not sure a normal cell "crosses" into a spirit containing cell. Perhaps the single cell is the "life" He is speaking of. That life is put down into the most base, singular cell.

Which takes me back to your earlier question, as to the life in cells that die. I don't think it matters if other cells die... so long as there is still life in, say, ONE cell. I base this on what I saw in the World of the Dead. You may recall that I sawt those there had virtually NO life in them... except a teechie bit enough to wake up and ask a question... a question which they didn't even know meant... then return to sleep. I mean, it was a TEENCHIE bit of life. From our perspective, maybe only a few cells; however, you might recall that I shared that they only HAD such life to do so... because my Lord - THE Life - was now present before them. HE woke them up. Did he put some spirit IN them? I truly cannot say because I did not see that, but I know, without a doubt, that they didn't... couldn't... wake up on their own, but only do so because of his presence.



I agree, dear one, but I don't think this was based on a need (well, certainly not mine - I know that the MOST Holy One of Israel will show mercy to whomever He wishes... and certainly whomever is deserving, as to not do so would be unrighteous - and so I didn't need a explanation to account for those who may have been burned. I simply trusted that what my Lord told me about it was true... because he's never lied to me. Some, though, don't always have such faith and so need to understand the "why" and "how" of what JAH does. Since He never leaves Himself without witness, perhaps this was provided to answer such for those who needed it.

This wasn't an attempt to validate a religious belief, though (and I hope you call allow yourself to see that), but what one (me) heard from the Holy One of Israel and shared with others. Some apparently didn't HAVE a belief in what I shared... religious or otherwise... because the seeming finality of what fire does to the physical body was incomprehensible to them. So... they asked... as I would exhort YOU to do, as well - perhaps you will be given something that either explains what dear tec shared... or explains it away. We're not afraid of either.


To the contrary, I think dear tec offered it as a way to say that, although fire CAN destroy the spirit... and cremation CAN lead to the destruction of the spirit... there is a way around it! I am curious, though, since (I believe) you are an atheist (and so, correct me if I'm wrong, don't believe we have a spirit). I am not sure I understand why this... mmmmm... bothers you (other than it is perhaps science explaining how the spirit can survive). Why would it bother (concern?) you if there is a way for the spirit to survive fire, although the bones have been completely burned?

Please know that I am NOT trying to be contentious here, not at ALL - I just truly don't understand what bothers you regarding this matter, other than perhaps your feeling that someone is trying to explain their belief using science... and for you, one cannot do that, cannot explain beliefs of a spiritual nature with science. If that's the issue, okay, I understand - just want to be clear, though. Even so, I would disagree that one cannot do that; to the contrary, I and others are of the mind that the two are NOT in opposition... but that perhaps we just don't know all we can/should from a scientific POV, which others whose minds tend to be more in line with science can't fathom that the two CAN reside together, let alone DO.

Can you clarify for me, then, just what bothers you, here? Thank you!



I have to say that I don't understand this particular statement (well, not the latter part: messages your Lord gives you??). And I have to agree that while the messages I receive from my Lord may differ from the messages you receive from your Lord... how can they be the SAME Lord? Forgive me if you don't mean your Lord, literally, but only hypothetically. If that's the case, then I would have to say that I disagree. There is only one Lord, the Holy Spirit... and that One is the Truth and his mouth only utters truth... so I can't see how there could be a contradiction if we are both hearing the SAME Lord. Am I missing something?


Well, when it's all said and done, no, it doesn't. Unfortunately, though, people want to know about THINGS... rather than about Christ. They want to know the "why" and "how"... rather than just knowing HIM. And so, sometimes questions are asked, as was here (well, elsewhere, that led to this thread). Sometimes, questions are asked because erroneous statements are made and someone offers a correction and accuracy. Which is also what occurred here. Now, had my Lord been silent on the matter, I would have also thought "it doesn't matter." But for ME... ALL that he tells me matters. Else... he wouldn't tell me, nor direct me to share it. The only thing that matters ABOUT it, for now, is that it's the truth.


Dear HP... there is no "Jesus". Yes, I know that that is a very controversial statement, but I CANNOT lie to you about such a thing. If I did, I would be no better than the blind guides, false prophets, and false christs who have been misleading mankind... and particularly God's sheep... forever. Starting with the Adversary and his deceiving Eve. I HAVE to share the truth about this... even if others condemn me for it. There IS the HOLY One of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah)... and that One is my Lord and the One who speaks to me. Now, if folks want to keep going to, trying to hear, reading about, and following "Jesus"... okay. That is their choice. But I can't, in all good conscience... agree with them about it, simply because they want me to be agreeable. I can't just "go along to get along." That was what the WTBTS wanted us to do... rather than speak the TRUTH, indeed, even KNOW the truth... OR the Truth.

We're not in that "city" any longer, though, or a part of that harlot. Should we not now, for ONCE, speak the truth as to God and Christ... even if it means the "majority" won't like it... or us? It shouldn't be that hard, either... because that is one of the lessons we were suppose to learn while IN her: that the world hates what is not it's OWN. For me to continue to perpetuate the lie about a "Jesus" would solely be for the purpose of me trying to popular with those who believe in that "god." A part of them.

I cannot do it, dear one. Please... forgive and try to understand me, if you can... but I cannot do it. Because it's a LIE.


Now THAT'S a good question! It goes back, again, to the fact that people want to know the [details of] the "why"... and "how"... often times more than they want to know the WHO. I can't answer as to why for those who do.

As always, I'm discussing and not attacking and wish you all the best and healthiest of life ;D

Again, I hope you can see that I am, as well. I hope that even if we don't see eye-to-eye on this particular matter that such doesn't become a means for us to no longer associated (as Paul ? wrote: "So now that I speak the truth, I'm no longer your friend?"). That was/is one of the tactics of the WTBTS, to pull away from, deny, shun, even force others to shun those who didn't agree with them. We, though, the Body of Christ, are not to be like that... because, again, the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, shows mercy to whomever HE wishes it... not just whomever WE might wish it upon. So, for us to say, "Well, you don't agree with me/us so we can have nothing to do with you" goes against his love. As he said:

"He that is not AGAINST you... is FOR you."

So long as another allows us to hear, put faith in what we hear, and share that... such one is not showing themselves to be againsst us. It is only when someone shows themselves to BE against us that we can say they are not FOR us. In which case, it may be best for US... for OUR spiritual lives... to leave such persons be (unless the Spirit directs us otherwise). Because what we hear and share will most likely only make THEM madder, more angry, perhaps to the point of blaspheming. We don't want to be a part of them doing that, if we're not supposed to be. Sometimes, though, we have no choice - it is their treatment of us... whether they do "good"... or not so good... that leads them down that path.

Again, I have enjoyed this discussion and have absolutely NO qualms continuing, if you've a mind... and heart... to do so. Again, though, I would ask you to keep an open mind. But please... please... don't expect a reverence for "Jesus" from me. It cannot happen... because I cannot revere a person/entity that does not exist. Like "Jehovah."

Peace to you and yours!

YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

TEC SAID

Good morning, and hope everyone had a happy Christmas


I don't think I can give very much more on this, but only a little, as that is all I have.

I, too, think it was significant that the stem cells in baby teeth can produce the bone... which produces the things that produce blood/life. (not just a replication/clone, but actually YOU)

I also know that none of that truly matters to one who belongs to Christ, because 'not a hair will be harmed on their heads'. Their spirit is already under the altar. They already have life in them, from the Holy Spirit (Christ); the deposit of things to come.

I also understand that while something (bones of any sort) might seem to be dry/dead to us and our science (to date); it is not so to God. Otherwise it would not matter, because marrow dries up, blood and stem cells dry up/are lost; and even bones decay. But God can see what we cannot. Indeed, we have barely brushed the surface.

I look at it similar as to using dna to make a clone (if that is how that works, though our science is not fully there yet, I know)... which is not you; it is just the physical representation of you. But something more than that makes YOU (the real you and not just the representation of you).

So in the same way that the blood 'speaks'; the bones 'speak' too.

Not going to say that I fully understand, because I don't know that I can yet, if at all in my lifetime. ("many things I have to tell you but you cannot bear them yet" -meaning, in part, that we don't have the building blocks to understand them)

Finally, I agree that this was not given or shared to stumble anyone or produce fear in anyone... but only to show the 'how' of things, such as the resurrection. (at least the 'how'... in part) I know that there is more than we understand (probably than we are even capable of understanding). I think the meaning of showing the stuff on the baby teeth was shown to reassure me (and others) that God is not so easily 'thwarted'; and our lives are not so precarious to Him.


Peace to you all,
tammy