xjwsforChrist

The letters to the seven congregations were specifically directed "to the angel of the congregation [or church] in <place>". What was the purpose of writing to the angels? What did that indicate? The seven stars are the seven angels, and WTBTS, of course, says these mean "the anointed overseers and, by extension, all the overseers in the congregations." I have never really understood why the letters were directed to "angels" instead of directly to the congregations.

Have you been reading Revelation out loud? I ask, because I did... and I also had this same question when I got to this part. But I remembered also that angel can also mean messenger... because I am also not sure why John would be writing to each angel of the churches, rather than the church themselves... or perhaps the spirit of the churches.


Peace,
tammy

I have been reading out loud, yes. And I knew the word for angel can also be messenger, too. Which begs the question: who are these? Real angels? Or something else? The content of the letters would seem to be directed to the churches, and I assume the content would be relayed by these angels to the churches. It's a bit of a muddy topic, because WTBTS, I believe, has really fouled up the explanation here, and I simply do not know what this all means . . . who these angels are or are represented by, and why John was told to write to the angels. I'm simply curious to know.

God gave his Christ a revelation, which he gave to an angel to show to John in signs. Christ himself gave the command to write to the seven angels. We see that because in Rev 1:17, he identifies himself as such, and in the few translations, I've looked at, there is no closing quotation mark at the end of chapter one, so it appears Christ is still speaking when Rev 2:1 begins. (Sometimes these chapters and verses get in the way of understanding the flow... ugh.)

Yes, I don't like the divisions sometimes made by the chapters and verses, because if you take them out, you can see sometimes that the flow is still ongoing. Also my bible, the NIV, titles most sections, leading you to believe what that section is about... and that isn't always right either, but it gets your head in the mindset to look at the passage that way... if you are paying attention to that instead of the Spirit, instead of even just the words themselves.

Peace,
tammy

Greetings, dear LQ... and peace to you! I would like to respond as I have been given to, if I may? Thank you. What I have been given to share is, IMHO... almost beyond wonderful! TRULY marvelous! I apologize for not sharing it earlier (last night), but it was a lot to receive... and some didn't quite make sense so I had to be patient. Here, though, is what I received:

Do you recall the account by Daniel about Michael, "the Prince of you people"... and "the Prince(s) of Greece/Persia"? Do you recall the cherub that was "set" in Eden (he, the covering cherub of the Ark, Beli'Jah'El, aka "Satan" and "Devil")? Do you recall our dear Lord being referred to as the "Prince of Princes?"

A "prince," dear one, is not necessarily the son of a king, but more accurately, one who is placed/has authority over... is responsible for... governs... a "principality."

The seven spirits are "princes" who have a responsibility toward the BRIDE of Christ (those who make up his Body)... who "reside" (in a spiritual sense) in various "congregations" (aka "churches")... or "principalities"... at a given time.

You stated:



My Lord's comment to me on that (because I had to ask, which is why I am just now responding) was actually a question. He asked me:

"After I appeared and spoke to him, did John not receive the visions from a spirit, rather than directly from me?"

I responded, "Yes, Lord, that is what his writing states!"

[In my heart, however, meaning not directly TO him, I added: "But I have to admit I am not sure why, since we can come directly to you, as I am doing now, right? Why not tell him yourself?" Please, note, I felt pretty... mmmmmm... presumptuous, even a bit "sassy" even THINKING this. It "felt" like I was questioning him in a way I had no right to do... which is why I didn't ask right out! Yet I also felt he was kindly accommodating me by even responding/allowing me to ask (oh, yes, he KNEW what I hadn't stated). It's not something I've done before (I usually just wait for him to tell me what he wants me to know) and now I don't think I ever want to do again. Not because of fear (again, he was most kind and accommodating!)... but more like because I KNOW he wouldn't withhold from us something we SHOULD/NEED to know... and so, asking kind of felt like that, like I felt perhaps there was something not fully disclosed and so asking was kind of... I dunno... "rude." I digress.]

His response was sublime, as it always is. He said:

"It was given to that one to deliver to John. What has been given to the seven spirits is not for them to deliver but to hold. For this purpose they were created, to hold my word to those who are in me... until the time appointed has ended. It is the task of these, just as it was the task of the cherubs that were covering to cover, the task of the seven trumpets to herald the contents of the scrolls, the task of the four who hold back the winds, the task of those set to guard the way into (and the word he used denoted "paradise," but I can't think of an ENGLISH word that describes it - "garden" is SO inadequate because it wasn't something physical OR spiritual, but both - so I don't know what to use, sorry...), the task of the spirits who stand at the gates to the beloved city. All spirits were created for a purpose, as was earthling man. Unlike earthing man, who does not always know his purpose, all spirits know their purpose. As with earthling man, not all spirits desire to fulfill their purpose, but these are steadfast. They are holding my word, even still.

Now here is where the wonderful part comes in. As he said this, he helped me understand it by letting me SEE it. And I will try to share that with you:

Do you recall that the seven spirit/angels have different manifestations? They are the seven spirits of JAH and manifest as stars (Revelation 1:20), lamps (Revelation 4:5), horns and eyes (Revelation 5:6, etc. Here, I saw those "spirits" as shimmering bright lights ("stars") in vessels ("lamps") that appeared to be some kind of clay... I thought "pots" but his word translates to "jars." So, clay jars.

Then I saw others, sometimes one or two, sometimes a few, but rarely more than, say 10-20 at a time (although there was a couple/few times where there were a lot more!), approach these jars. But I did not see the "spirits" deliver anything to those who approached; rather, I saw those who approached TAKE from within the jars. Not put their hands in and draw something out, but stand before the jar and "draw" something from within it. Some from this jar, some from that jar, some from another. They would come and go, and over time, most took from all seven jars or most of them. A few took from only one or two jars.

As I watched, I understood the jars to mean the "spirits" and what was being taken from them was the substance of the content and intent of the "letters." Their praise and/or rebuke. And then I understood that it is we who take FROM the spirits/jars, not they who give to us. What we TAKE... is the understanding of "where" we "are" - "in Pergamun," or "in Thyatira," or "in Laodicea," etc. Each "jar" contains information that we can "partake" of and KNOW, if we truly WISH to, "where" we are... in order to help us to REFINE/CORRECT, if needed, so as to GET to where we are going/need to BE. That's why they are "lamps"/"stars": they ILLUMINATE this information for US.

But they don't dispense the information to us - they simply hold it. WE must go and TAKE from them! But then I understood that one cannot just go and take: they have to be given ACCESS... through the Door! So, I looked and saw a "Door"... and others still coming through it!

It was then that I understood that many read these accounts, yet do not see themselves in the mirror-like "water"... or SPIRIT... that is in them. Because they don't have ACCESS to the TRUTH that is in them! And so, they consider them as something for those of literal and specific congregations/churches of a foregone age, not for themselves... or anyone, actually, but rather just abstract writings.

The jars are for time INdefinite, however - they have no end. The information that is currently IN them, however, will change... when the appointed time arrives and the information is no longer needed. Then, they will contain NEW "water", meaning new information, appropriate to the time and circumstances (i.e., the period of co-rulership with Christ, the period of the Judgment, and afterward). Each "eon" will have its own pertinent information "held" by these spirits.

So, the reason the "letters" were written to these SPIRITS was that these spirits are custodians of the information, which is "revealed" to for whom it is intended (those who truly WANT to know, of the Body of Christ)... when such "peer into" the jars... or "lamps"... that these spirits are.

I, SA, have shared this with you just as I received it from my Lord, the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah), who is the Son and Christ of the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies, who have graciously, kindly, and mercifully granted it to me to receive and shared it with me, their servant to time indefinite.

I hope this helps!

Again, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellamar

That was sublime, Shelby... so beautiful. The spirit in me hears all that has been shared by our Lord to you.

I have read those letters and seen some of me... something I am lacking and need to correct... as though one letter was speaking directly to me; and yet I kept doubting it since I have thought that those letters were written to others. (also, I did not really want to accept that what I saw and heard was true... even though I know that seeing where we are lacking is not a condemnation, but rather discipline and training to show us our error so that we may correct it, to fix it, to instead do what is right, so as to turn us around and remain in Christ)

What a beautiful truth to be revealed. Tell me this does not prove our Lord true again (as He is always proven true... and men proven the liars, even if in ignorance)... that 'blessed is he who reads aloud the words of this book'!

My bible doesn't say read aloud... but only read. Yet it was not until JM's post about reading aloud (or was that your post, Leaving?)... that I did so, and even noticed that the letters were to the angels of the seven churches. Thank you Leaving for starting this thread to question that.


Peace and love to you all,

tammy

That's absolutely TRUE, dear tec (peace, luv)... but we have not been taught by MAN (hired men, wolves, what have you), to view it that way, have we? Because these JUDGE, they make those who follow them recoil from even LOOKING to SEE "where" they might be!



YES!! Which is why in each one (except the one to those in "Philadelphia") he admonishes those in the "congregation" to stop, turn around, fix it, etc.,... AND tells them what to do to do that (or what they're doing that does not meet with his approval). Rather than close our eyes or take offense, we COULD... REJOICE... that he is bothering TO tell us... so that we may not only conquer and save OUR lives, even become pillars in the city/temple... but our households, as well!

We can do that, rejoice, by (1) understanding JAH and CHRIST's view of "discipline"... that it IS training, NOT punishment (as SO many... including our parents, teachers, employers, etc., view and use the word!), and (2) maybe considering these words (written to the Hebrews, all emphases mine):

"In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,

“My SON, do not make light of the discipline of JaHVeH,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
because JaHVeH disciplines the one he LOVES,
and he chastens everyone he ACCEPTS as his son.” (Proverbs 3:11, 12)

"Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! They (human fathers) disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in HIS holiness.

"No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

"Therefore, strengthen your feeble arms and weak knees. Make level paths for your feet, so that the lame may not be disabled, but rather healed." Hebrews 12:4-13

We are being trained for co-rulership with Christ in God's kingdom. Who of us should WANT half-*ssed training? If we were being prepared to rulers in THIS world, we would not just be required to undergo years of preparation but we would EXPECT it. If we wanted to be GOOD rulers, we would DEMAND it... AND demand that it is exceptional, yes?

Same here. Discipline from JAH/Christ, while not joyous (what discipline is??)... should not be seen as bad or avoided, but viewed as exactly what it is: the means for SUBDUING us... and teaching US peace. Not as the WORLD gives it, but as Christ gives it.

Viewing it this way might help. Of course, as with any training program, the only progress we NEED to be concerned with is our own. We can, of course, offer to assist others, but ultimately, what kind of "teammate" they wish to be, turn out to be, is between them and our dear Lord. Because it's HIS Body... not ours.

I hope this helps, dear tec!

Again, peace to you, luv!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellamar

WOW! Just WOW!

The letters to the congregations used to really make me wonder, why were they there, who were they for now? Wow.

Loz x

_________________
"This is my son. LISTEN to Him!"

Yes, Shelby, I hear all of that also, thank you, my dear sister! The passages from Hebrews brings tears to my eyes... of joy and awe, not of sadness.

It is true that we can and should rejoice when we are being disciplined... so that we may stand upright... not so that we may be 'made lame'. Because our Lord Himself states IN those letters in Revelation:

"Those whom I love, I discipline and rebuke."

Rejoice then, that you are LOVED, if/when you are being disciplined. Because our Lord SAID so... and HE is the Truth. Rejoice that we even have access to these clay jars, so as to see where we are and what we might need.


I am still overjoyed at the understanding given to us... and all the things that led up to Leaving even asking about it, prompting you Shelby to ask about it also, all from having obeyed the smallest thing: blessed is he who reads aloud the words of this book.


Praise Jah, and praise our Lord, Jaheshua!


May any who wish and any who thirst, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of life!"


Peace and love to you,
tammy

Well, that's quite different that other explanations out there, now, isn't it? It actually makes a lot of sense, too.

Thank you for asking and responding (yes, I did ask, but heard nothing).

~LQ

LOLOL at YOUR joy, dear tec (peace, luv!)... but I have to correct/clarify something: the jars weren't made of clay, per se (I know, it did read like I meant that). They reminded me of clay jars... meaning those tall "vessels" that in ancient times were used as "jars" to hold, say, wine, water, olive oil, etc. They weren't wide/shallow... but tallish and not flat on the bottom... and held "liquid" (something shimmering and looking fluid, while radiating great light), which I discerned was holy spirit. They, those jars/vessels... or "lamps"... are the spirits.

I need to correct this because it's not really accurate: a literal clay jar would be more of an earthen vessel and these were not terrestrial at all.

I hope that helps and my apologies for any confusion!

Peace!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellamar

I am getting goosebumps receiving this information, and hearing that it has great importance for us. I haven't managed to 'read out aloud' yet but I will do it very soon.

Loz x

_________________
"This is my son. LISTEN to Him!"

Oh, good, thanks for the clarification... because I knew that Paul described US in a similar way... and I was wondering how that was working in with the spirits in 'clay' jars that you saw.

Peace,
tammy

Rejoice then, that you are LOVED, if/when you are being disciplined. Because our Lord SAID so... and HE is the Truth. Rejoice that we even have access to these clay jars, so as to see where we are and what we might need.

I'm with dear Loz in the " WOW!"

And with dear Tammy in this comment above. Yes, we are loved if we are disciplined. We are true sons and not illegitimate then. We should welcome this training daily.
Thank you my sister Shelby also for sharing " just so."

Praise Jah and our Lord for sharing these sacred secrets with us as it is only by means of him that it can be revealed.

I remember as to the congregations Shelby you mentioned on another post somewhere that the body of CHRIST will be in any one of these seven congregations at any time and may move around depending on the training needed to be refined. Now I see where I can make a personal examination and ask where I am " today/ this week" what I need to work on, and let him show me what congregation I am in and help me with what I need to work on.

Thank you again everybody for sharing as well,
Love and peace to you,
Your sister in Christ Justmom

On Cookie's hello thread and to Cookie, Shelby, you said this:



Thank you for sharing that. I heard this exact same thing when I read what you posted about these seven congregations... and I heard it loud and clear... but was uncertain about the meaning and I did not share it, though of course I should have.


Got to spend the talents you have, to receive more talents!



Peace to you all!

Your servant, sister, and fellow slave of Christ,
tammy