xjwsforChrist

I hear what you're saying, Shelby, but you're not right. You think you are, but you're not.

Tammy, if I understand you correctly, I think you're asking me to give you proof of what I'm saying. Is that what you're asking?

No! I wouldn't do that! St Thomas comes to mind here...

The thing is, what you don't realise about me, is that I have known Jesus Christ since I was very small indeed. My faith in Him is that deep. (So much the worse was my eventual listening to the JW's, seemingly so knowledgeable about the Bible, even though I did spend six months doing my very best to disprove their teachings. What finally got me to give in and go along with them was the visit to my house of a very senior Watchtower figure. He seemed so learned. Only much later did I discover that his learning went no further than Watchtower parameters.)

Tammy, I may have got this wrong, but I think you told me or you wrote somewhere that you have come to your faith in Christ only comparatively recently, within the last few years. Is that right? It's not the case with me. I have known Him all my life, all my whole life. So my belief is very very deep. You say you hear his voice. I find that terminology uncomfortable, with its overtones of New Age channelling, and unsafe in the way I frequently see those phrases used here. But I know Him and He knows me. I am not going to turn my back on Him as I so nearly did with the JW's. Like St Peter, I won't betray Him again. And I won't put Him to the test.

No... I don't think you do understand what i am saying. I think if you did... well, we wouldn't be having this conversation to begin with ; ). But continuing will have to wait because I only have a few minutes before i have to leave (to get one son, and then dash off to work).

Oh, but no, I did not come to believe in Christ in the past few years... I just began to hear Him in the past couple years (though He was speaking to me before I recognized Him... I can recall His voice from my childhood, now that I recognize Him, in fact).

I did understand before that though... that we are to listen to HIM, and that HE shows us God. Though I got sidetracked also, thinking that there must be a true religion out there...

Okay... gotta go : )


Peace,
tammy

Shelby said,

This is NO different, luv. At one point our dear Lord called you OUT of the "pen" that held YOU. Rather than This is NO different, luv. At one point our dear Lord called you OUT of the "pen" that held YOU. Rather than follow HIM... you were misled into following yet ANOTHER "hired man"... who, like the very one you LEFT... allowed the sheep to be snatched and scattered. From one pen of unloving sheep (and if that's not TRUE, then it's you who told that... mmmmm... "tale")... to another. Had you simply TRUSTED... LISTENED to HIS voice... and followed HIM... you would have found HIM... and completely avoided that other shepherd. You didn't, though. Like some of us others, including me, you listened to the voice of strangers.

Once you realized this, however, rather than running FORWARD... to the FINE Shepherd... you ran BACK. Just as Israel and some of those who went with them wanted to do. Difference is, you were allowed to go back... and LIVE... AND you are being given yet ANOTHER chance to WAKE UP... and go OUT... to "meet THE BRIDEGROOM." If the accounts are to be believed, THEY... were not so fortunate. HIM... you were misled into following yet ANOTHER "hired man"... who, like the very one you LEFT... allowed the sheep to be snatched and scattered. From one pen of unloving sheep (and if that's not TRUE, then it's you who told that... mmmmm... "tale")... to another. Had you simply TRUSTED... LISTENED to HIS voice... and followed HIM... you would have found HIM... and completely avoided that other shepherd. You didn't, though. Like some of us others, including me, you listened to the voice of strangers.

Once you realized this, however, rather than running FORWARD... to the FINE Shepherd... you ran BACK. Just as Israel and some of those who went with them wanted to do. Difference is, you were allowed to go back... and LIVE... AND you are being given yet ANOTHER chance to WAKE UP... and go OUT... to "meet THE BRIDEGROOM." If the accounts are to be believed, THEY... were not so fortunate.


And Dear Char,

This is where you are.

Something somewhere caused you to 'doubt' the RCC or you would not have been able to leave and join yourself even if for a brief time, but very involved as you mentioned, to the WTBS.

You heard our Lord enough to know to leave for a minute the RCC. The adversary knew this, caught you in his trap and led you into the WTBS which sounded like truth for a hot minute.

Then when traumatized ( like it did to many of us) and you found out just how evil they were...
Not having " the truth " which is Christ anywhere ...
because all you hear is Jehovah this and Jehovah that...

Instead of following our Lord to lead you out into the wilderness to be led by Him, you ran back.
Back to the place you left originally. Even though you had questions or issues with the RCC.
If you didn't have them, why did you leave in the first place?

But one of the huge problems I see Char is this. You just keep saying as you just did to Tammy that you don't hear his voice and those of us that do, it makes you feel " uncomfortable". And you throw in "new age thinking" as an excuse to make it seem to others that it's not from the true source, CHRIST!

Why Char? Why don't you hear him? Anymore? Because you did a while back enough to walk away form the RCC, but fear and trauma led you to deny NOW what you once heard.

Show us where in the bible it says CHRIST does not speak, have a voice, does not communicate in this way with His " OWN Body". Doesn't that sound absurd that he WOULDN'T???

Char, I understand what that WTBS can do to a person, trust me, but no need to deny our Lords means of communication to anyone that loves him. Wouldn't that in essence be a sorta denying of CHRIST himself then?

I have nothing but love foryou my sister,
Justmom

I was thinking back today, remembering, and it helped me to understand Char a little better. About 15 years before I finally did leave the WTBS... I faded out, and for quite a while. Years rather than months.

I was struggling with things I saw and heard in the congregations. I found myself lost and drifting spiritually, desperate to find the real true faith, and I believe that I was given powerful guidance in a dream to reach out to Jah for help.

I followed the guidance and not long after, to my utter amazement, I was anointed. I won't go into that now, I'll move on...but...you see instead of then waiting on Christ and LISTENING for guidance, I rushed back to the WTBS. I relied on my own thinking and PRESUMED that He wanted me to do that. I was determined then to hang on in there for dear life, so as not to hurt or disappoint Him.

The turmoil of the years that followed, forcing myself to stay where I THOUGHT I was meant to be, despite it distressing the spirit within me are well recorded. In the end I believe I was dragged out of my marriage and the WTBS by Jah and Christ. It saved my life, in more ways than one, I'm sure.

Still it took me years to simply trust in Christ to lead me. I worried that I should be worshipping somewhere but saw clearly that there was no religion to trust with my faith. Finally, finally, I started to follow the leadings ONLY of the Holy Spirit, and gradually I have learned to LISTEN. The body of Christ here have helped me to find my way to do this. Now, I can't believe it took me so long to figure out something so simple!

I'm saddened at the decisions I took back then, I trusted my own thinking instead of simply trusting Christ, and I paid dearly for it in many many ways. It enabled the WTBS to damage my family and it hindered the Holy Spirit. I regret it deeply but I don't dwell on shame or guilt anymore. I trust that I've been forgiven and cherish the relationship with Jah and Christ that I now have. Free from any "hired men" leading me astray.

Even now I have to keep an eye on myself, knowing my inclinations to think for myself as I do, in all kinds of situations, I have to remind myself to wait and to listen. He has never let me down, He stays at my side and cares for me constantly. Why on earth did I ever presume that anyone else could do it for Him or better? Why did I ever presume He would delegate His role as my teacher, my brother, and the head of the body?

It has taught me a humility that I was obviously short of.

Loz x

_________________
"This is my son. LISTEN to Him!"

Thank Loz for this.

I do hear you. We are all different in how and when we all came out of the WTBS. And while we are here in the wilderness being led, we will always need reminders of where our faith is lacking.

But because we belong to him and he loves us, he always lovingly disciplines us.

And good point. Why would CHRIST delegate his role as our leader, teacher and mediator to any organization or religion on earth?

As our brother Peter said, " You Lord ( and only you) are the one we turn to. YOU have the sayings of everlasting life".

Thanks for sharing this
Love Justmom

Which is yet another wonderful feature of the GOOD news of the kingdom, dear, dear Loz (peace, luv!): unlike Moses, the leader, teacher, and guide to the OLD Covenant... and unlike the subsequent religious leaders, teachers, shepherds, kings, and guides of MEN... OUR Leader, Teacher, Shepherd, Guide, King, Savior, and Redeemer... the HOLY One of Israel and HOLY Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah)... LIVES! And so HIS kingdom does NOT pass over to another when he dies, retires, steps down, is sick, etc. Because he NEVER dies, retires, steps down, or gets sick, etc. He is "always and forever"... as are his SAYINGS... as is HIS VOICE.

When we give ourselves over to others to be led, taught, guided, shepherded, etc.,... then we are NOT putting our faith in HIM. That we SHARE what he gives US with one another... or even others... doesn't make us leaders, teachers, shepherds, etc. It makes us FELLOW citizens of God's House, and FELLOW members of Christ's Bride... the NEW Jerusalem. The BELOVED City of God (Revelation 20:9)... and dwelling place of HIS spirit! Ephesians 2:19-22

Unlike the great city, Babylon the Great (Revelation 17:18)... and her harlotous daughters (Revelation 17:5), which have become:

"... a dwelling for demons
and a haunt for every impure spirit,
a haunt for every unclean bird,
a haunt for every unclean and detestable animal."

"For all the nations have drunk
the maddening wine of her adulteries.
The kings of the earth committed adultery with her,
and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries.” Revelation 18:2, 3

Of course, SHE isn't going to call herself a harlot, or ADMIT what dwells in her. No SHE says:

"‘I sit enthroned as queen. I am not a widow; I will never mourn.’ Revelation 18:7

Yet, the MOST HOLY One of Israel call to HIS children:

"Get OUT of her... MY people!" Revelation 18:4

Some (even here) say that this appropriate when applied to the WTBTS; some (even here) say it is appropriate as to the RCC. The TRUTH, however, is that it is appropriately applied to ALL of those harlots... wherein dwell ANY who belong to the Household of GOD. Because the ONLY dwelling place for US... is in the BELOVED City... the NEW Jerusalem:

"I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God." Revelation 21:2, 3

THIS... is the Bride of Christ... his TRUE wife... the NEW Jerusalem. NOT that harlot who SAYS she is a queen and not a widow (so that the King is HER husband - he is NOT!). She is the only City in which we, the Body of Christ, are to dwell... and, right now, until she comes down OUT of heaven FROM God... she has NO dwelling place... ON EARTH. She is not OF this world and, right now, neither is she UPON this world. And OUR hearts should be where SHE is, AND her husband... OUR husband, because WE are SHE... the HOLY One of Israel and HOLY Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah).

He, the BUILDER of that City, is the one who calls, along WITH his Bride... to ANYONE wishing and thirsting... and calls for anyone HEARING to say WITH him:

"Come! Take the FREE gift of the water of LIFE!"

And so, that's what we do, we who DO hear, join him in making that call and setting forth that invitation. Will ALL respond? No. Because not all will HEAR. Because not all LISTEN... to the One CALLING.

That we do call, however, does not make us leaders, or teachers, or guides. There is One who holds those positions already. All it makes US is HIS servants, PERHAPS his Bride... and servants to those who HEAR... and come.

I hope this helps... and I truly hope any HERE... who ARE wishing and thirsting... DO hear and so DO:

"Come... and take 'life's water'... the holy spirit of God... which spirit is poured out from the innermost parts of His Son and Christ... FREE!"

Peace to you, all!

Servant to the Household of God, Israel, and ALL those who go with... and so, yes, a slave of Christ,

Shellamar





. There is no other city, building... or house... for US to dwell IN.

Some very interesting posts have happened here overnight. I can see that some of you are really trying to understand my standpoint. You don't, yet, but you're no longer attacking me as you have been for so long. That's a huge step forward.

I particularly want to answer justmom in detail. Also Loz's very interesting post. Shelby, you too, but I do have a problem with posts like that, full of long Bible quotations, with words like "harlot" and "Babylon" jumping out at me. It's the biggest turn-off imaginable. I can see you believe that kind of thing is helpful, but it really, really isn't.

I don't want to jump in with a quick reaction here. I have other things happening today too, and it's early morning here now. This time I need to take some time over replying, so please bear with me as time is limited today and careful thought is needed.

Shelby, I will read your post properly too later on. Right now, I just can't. But thank you and especially justmom and Loz.

Yes Shelby, and I find that so glaringly obvious NOW, and my spirit bears witness with it. Our problem as humans seems to be that we want something that we can SEE, something material. At least in retrospect that was my problem. Faith, real faith requires that we trust what we CANT SEE. (Reminds me of our thread re Hebrews 11:1)

It takes a giant leap of our faith to ABSOLUTELY believe that although Christ is unseen to our physical eyes, He is nevertheless really and truly with us, and we don't need anyone else, not anyone that we can see, not a building, not a teacher or leader, not a congregation. And you're quite right it is because He is ALIVE, now. He then directs us anyway to other members of the body for the upbuilding of ourselves within and for that body, and that is a joy for us.

So many speak of Christ's wondrous qualities and power and yet underestimate the simple truth that He spoke, often referred to in scripture, including Matthew 28:20 "I will be with you always..."

Loz x

_________________
"This is my son. LISTEN to Him!"

It is virtually impossible to get to the stage of being lead ONLY by Christ from the very beginning.
For the vast majority of us the process must begin with being lead by others or by something.
We should never forget that.
It is also good to remind ourselves that, in being led by Christ we are STILL being lead by OUR OWN understanding of Christ and what He says to Us and with that in mind we must ALWAYS remember that we are STILL human, and imperfect and so prone to making mistakes.
At best we can only get a "dim picture" of what Our Lord says to Us and shows Us.
We are, as always, humans first.

Good morning Paul,

I think there has be a few that " from the gate" had and only needed CHRIST.

But I can only speak for me and this where Galatians 4:1-5 came in for me as my Lord showed me.

While an heir is a babe, he is under men in charge until the appointed time for CHRIST to step in an finish his training.

Love Justmom

Your welcome Char,

Have a good day
Justmom

I agree that the majority do need this, as you have stated, Paul.

Justmom above summed up what I think about the rest.




I can agree with you that we CAN be led (or rather misled) by our own understanding, and of course we are imperfect and are prone to make mistakes and DO make mistakes.

However, I must disagree that a 'dim picture' is the best that we can get from Christ. Because if we do have only a dim picture, or any confusion at all...we can ask Him to clarify, and He WILL. No matter how many times we need Him to do so, and He does so in patience and in love. Something that He has reminded me of, during times I have been (or am about to be) impatient with my own children.

It is one of the reasons we must 'hate even our own lives'... so that we do not put our own will and desires... into and over what He is telling us.

Peace to you,
tammy

That is circular reasoning Tammy.
No matter how much we ask Christ, we have to accept and admit to ourselves that what we receiver from HIM is still being filtered by our very human and limited understanding.

As Paul said, "now we view through a mirror dimly..."

1 Corinthians 13:12
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

I totally understand, dear Char (mornin' and peace to you, dear one!). Not only is faith not a possession of ALL men... but the desire... and ability... to receive TRUTH... isn't either. I am reminded of those OUTSIDE of the BELOVED City (the NEW Jerusalem) and so OUTSIDE of God's love:

“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." Revelation 22:14, 15

I realize that you may not understand who these are... or even agree that such folks exist... or that Christ said this... or that he said there would be those who, like the Prophet said "LOVE the lie" and so cannot RECEIVE truth (as one writer said, such need to have their ears "tickled"... or something to that effect)... but I didn't make any of it up. That you have... mmmmmmm... issues... with the support I provide (what's written in the scriptures... or by the Apostles, whether one of the 12, Paul, or even our dear Lord's fleshly brothers)... well, I'm not sure what I can do about that. Because I KNOW that if I just TELL you these things, you will say I'm just making it up. Pulling it out of thin air (I offer your multitude of comments to that very effect as proof... that I'm not making THAT up).

But I'm not going to change WHAT I share... or HOW I share it, dear one, for the sake of your... mmmmm... "tender constitution." Can't do it. Why? Because, in coming to LOVE Christ, the TRUTH... I have come to HATE... the lie. And its father. And because I know... as with every OTHER "vice" belonging to man... it's a very slippery slope. Only one drink. Only one cigarette. Only one pill. Only one... lie. Sorry, can't do it. Not with regard to THESE matters (God and Christ)... nor with mostly anything else, either.

I can, however, suggest that you consider: it's me... and so you most probably know what to EXPECT... and if your tender constitution can't handle it... at least, coming from ME... then perhaps you should simply pass on and over what I post. Otherwise, perhaps you will see your way to continue giving me that benefit of the doubt, that I INTEND no harm to your delicate constitution and maybe what I share is for those with a bit stronger constitution. Which is absolutely fine with ME, as I know there are others here whose words are perhaps more along the lines of what you CAN handle.

I hope this helps.

Again, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellamar

I am not sure what is circular about that, Paul. So perhaps I am misunderstanding what you stated at first.

We may see in part... because we have not received ALL that Christ has to share and to show us, and He has not yet returned with His Kingdom.


But we do not have to see in part... the very things that He shares with us and teaches us. Those, we can receive and share and understand as He gives us... exactly as He gives us. There may be more to hear, to learn, to receive... in addition to what He has given us, even on the very topic. But from what He has given us, there does not have to be a 'dim picture'.

Do you understand what I am trying to explain?


Peace,
tammy