xjwsforChrist

This was posted in another forum:
This is the question that caused me to leave church.


This issue of Christ's "sacrificial death" is one that is used by even atheists to point out the "barbaric nature" of Christianity.


IMO:
In my reply to him:

It seems that you have issues with YOUR understanding of why Jesus had to die.
Rightly fully so because I myself have issues with YOUR view of why Jesus had to die.

Granted that the death of Jesus is NOT something easily explained nor should it be since NO death is easily explained, much less the death of the Son of God.

What does John say on the matter:
John 3:

16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”


To which He replied:

The passage you've quoted from John doesn't answer how Jesus dying ensured eternal life and 'saved' people. What was it about Jesus dying that made a difference? That's my question - why was killing Jesus God's chosen means when he could have used any other?


And I:
It is NOT about His death but His Resurrection.
It was His resurrection that drew "all" to Him and reconciled Man with God though Christ.
You are focusing on His death and WHY it had to happen and the fact is that death HAD to happen for the resurrection to happen.
Christianity is not just about the death of Christ, Christianity is ALL about the resurrection of Christ.
As Paul said, If Christ was not resurrected, there is no justification or salvation.

Christ had to die so that we all may live in Him through His resurrection.

It was His resurrection that draws all and saves all those that believe.



To which he:
Now that's an interesting approach - thanks.

I wonder though what the mechanism that meant that the resurrection made 'reconciliation' between people and the God that loves them possible? It's a different angle, but the same fundamental question applies.

I mean God had brought people back from the dead before, so it can't be simply bringing back the dead that made it possible, can it?

And to be honest, the whole sacrifice to forgive thing is putting me off, not drawing me in.



From which I replied:

Yes, I can understand your view since, I myself, felt the same way at one time.
The sacrifice was Christ dying when He could have saved Himself, why He did it was because He had to die to be resurrected and why that had to be was because that was the ONLY way to reconcile the world to HIM, it was the only way to prove that HE was The Son of God and the first resurrected by God AND Himself.
Without the resurrection, Christ was simply another failed messiah and there would be no reason to follow Him or preach His words, which is exactly what was going on (nothing) until He appeared to His followers and they (afterwards) began preaching His Word.

In short, He died because He had to die to be resurrected and it had to happen that way because that was the only way to reconcile all those that heard AND WILL hear His words back to God:
For all those that believe will not be judged, but will have everlasting life.

Believe in what? in who?

CHRIST.

Christ died... and yet lived. He did not try to do so on His own, but did as His Father directed, in faith... and authority and power was GIVEN to Him.

Just as Adam tried to do on his own... know death, and yet live... and failed.



Christ also tells us why things had to happen as they did.

To fulfill scripture. God KNEW that the people would persecute and kill His Son - those who listened to their father; those who hated the Light (even though they might turn and repent later, as Christ DID also ask forgiveness for them, stating that they knew not what they did) - and so He told others BEFORE that happened... so they could know and put their faith in Christ and all that Christ said and taught... and that though He died, He also lived. (the resurrection... as you said, Paul) So will those who belong to Him, whose faith is IN Him, as He and His Father promised.

"The only sign that will be given is the sign of Jonah".

He also died... putting to death the written law, that the new law (and NEW covenant) was about faith in Christ... with love as the law, written on hearts. Worship in spirit and truth.

Christ also had to die, and then live... so that He could return to His Father and prepare a place for his apostles. So that He could also - as He has reminded me - return as the Holy Spirit. Because as the Holy Spirit, He can speak to ALL. He is not limited as the Spirit, as the flesh IS limited. HE is the Spirit of Truth. The Life. The resurrection. The LIVING Word.


Thank you for posting this Paul.


Peace to you,
tammy

Your position is true, dear, dear P (peace to you, dear one!), but there is more to it (and please forgive my ZEAL, but I can't HELP it... when I get the opportunity to share some of the GOOD news about the kingdom!!):

In wanting to be like God... knowing good (life) AND bad (death)... and yet live... Adham paid a price. He BELIEVED he could "buy" that right from someone other than JAH: from Death. Abaddon/Apollyon... the "king of the abyss." He believed that one could release him from the world of the dead (Sheol/Hades)... AND that one COULD have (because he was KING over it!)... except JAH... who had the KEYS... didn't allow it.

The "price" death wanted, in order to sell this right to Adham... was another life (a life for a life). Death was ENTITLED to lives... because the wage of sin IS death. But there was no sin... and so no one FOR death. In order to "seal the deal" for this right (to conquer Death)... Adham "sold" ALL OF HIS PROGENY... TO Death. He allowed Death, which previously did NOT have access... into THIS realm; Death came THROUGH Adham. And so, through Adham, Death had access to ALL of mankind.

In order to remove that "contract" (between Death and Adham)... the full price had to be paid. By someone. Adham, now sinFUL... now cut OFF from the Tree of Life... and so having NO power of his OWN... had no value in himself. The ONLY thing that Death would take... in exchange for the lives of ALL of mankind... was Adham's BROTHER... the OTHER Son of God... by "Sarah" (vs. Adham, by "Hagar"): the Son that is the LIFE. Why? Because that's One's LIFE FORCE... was and is worth more than the life forces of ALL of mankind, INCLUDING Adham's.

HE... was the ONLY "price" Death would take in exchange for releasing US... we whom Adham sold to him (Death).

So, in order to release US... make a way so that Death cannot HOLD us... FOREVER... God gave that Son.

BUT... Death was tricked!! Death thought he would be given that Life, Christ... and HIS power... FOREVER. He (Death) did not count on that One, the Life... being given the KEYS (to Death and Hades, the World of the Dead)... so as to let himself back OUT! Oops!

And so, when Christ died and went to Hades, the "contract" between Adham and Death was fulfilled! Death no longer had a PERMANENT hold on MANKIND. But... wait... Death didn't even have the TEMPORARY hold he THOUGHT he had... on Christ, either! That One (Christ) used the "keys" JAH had given him... to come RIGHT BACK!

As a result, Death NO LONGER HAS ANY HOLD on HIM!

But how does that relate to US? It relates... because the wage of sin is death. And so ALL must die... and thus belong to Death! Or must they/DO they? No! Because if blood is poured out, then sins CAN BE FORGIVEN. But when the blood is that of bulls and rams... and regular humans... the sins are only forgiven for a time. Until the NEXT sin.

Christ gave HIS blood... as a means to cover over and grant forgiveness for OUR sins... for ALL time! And if one's sins are COVERED... then one is "without" sin... and so NO WAGE IS OWED. NO DEATH is the result! Any who are BOUGHT... REPURCHASED... meaning, having the WAGE of their sin PAID... by Christ's blood... CANNOT be held by DEATH! And so HE will resurrect them!

"He that feeds on MY flesh... and drinks MY blood... has EVERLASTING life... and I will resurrect him at the last day" John 6:54

By means of having the KEYS to Death and Hades, Christ... when he RETURNS... can let those who belong to HIM... OUT! THEY... (1) DON'T HAVE TO UNDERGO THE JUDGMENT... BECAUSE THEY BELONG TO HIM... and BY MEANS OF HIS BLOOD... HAVE THEIR SINS BLOTTED OUT, and so (2)... unlike those who are resurrected to Judgment... ARE NOT DESTROYED (in the Lake of Fire)!!!

He dies... so that Death could be CONQUERED... so that WE... those who belong to him, who are in union with him... who are HIS Body... can LIVE! FOREVER! And NOT undergo Judgment and risk destruction in the Lake of Fire, which is the SECOND death! Revelation 20:4-6; 11-17

Death exacted a price for his deal with Adham. Once HE sinned... Adham couldn't "REDEEM" what he "sold" to death, the ETERNAL life of every man, woman, and child, including himself! And so another One... One who COULD redeem what Adham sold... could because he PROVED that he was WITHOUT sin... was given.

Death went after both of JAH's sons, Adham and Jah'eShua. He got one, Adham. The other, Jah'eShua, not only saved Adham... but us.

Therefore... we must KISS THE SON!!!

I hope this helps, truly.

Again, peace to you, all!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellamar

That's very interesting, Shelby.

So who is this person Death that you mention? Where does he fit in?

He is the "king of the pit/abyss"... and ruler of the World of the Dead (Sheol/Hades), dear Char (peace to you!)... aka the Destroyer/Destruction. His name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek, Apollyon. He is the Darkness... that existed before my Lord, the Light, came into existence.

His "son" is Beli'Jah'El, the one called "Satan" and "Devil" (as Christ is JAH's son)... because that one chose Death as HIS "father" (the one whose spirit was IN him, so as to "beget" him, as did Adham, who chose Death over JAH/Life). Thus, the Adversary is called the "PRINCE of Darkness" (as his "father", Death, IS the Darkness and so KING of that "realm" and state).

The opposite of (the) Life... is Death. Life (JAH) is "good"... death (Death) is "bad". Adham wanted to know life (good, which he received from JAH and DID know)... AND death (bad, which he HADN'T received from JAH, so DIDN'T know... and so sold his progeny so as TO know). He did this because he wanted to be LIKE JAH and Christ/spirit beings (spirit beings don't die - they must be destroyed - and so "know" death yet still live. That is what Adham wanted: authority over death).

JaHVeH... the MOST HOLY One [of Israel])... is the ultimate (source of) Life and Light. Christ is the SON of Life and Light... and so, as His OFFSPRING... and so is Light and Life HIMSELF (they are of the same "substance"). Thus, he is the Prince of PEACE and Chief Agent (one who brokers) of Life. Through HIM, all who follow are led to EVERLASTING life. Revelation 7:17

Abaddon/Apollon... is the ultimate (source of) Death and Darkness. The Adversary is the "SON" of Destruction/the Destroyer... and so is HIS offspring... and so is Darkness and Death HIMSELF (because he has taken on the FORM of HIS "father:). Thus, HE is the Prince of DARKNESS and chief agent (one who brokers) of DEATH. Through HIM... all who follow HIM... are led to EVERLASTING destruction. Revelation 20:7-9

There are a PLETHORA of scriptures and verses to show what all of this was all about... but these few might give you a start:

Genesis 1:2-5 (notice, what WE call "night and day" didn't occur until the THIRD day, when the sun and moon were set in their places - Genesis 1:14-19

Revelation 1:18; 9:1, 11
1 Corinthians 10:10
Hebrews 10:27; 11:28
John 17:12


I hope this helps, dear Char. Truly.

A slave of Christ,

Shellamar

Well, well.

There was I thinking that Death, as a person, existed only on the Discworld. The things we learn!

Never too old to learn, dear Char, never too old to learn.

Peace!

A slave of Christ,

Shellamar

And you mean you SERIOUSLY think Deathbis a real person? Like Charon, I suppose? Charon, who rows his death boat across the Styx?

Gosh. No woner there are currently 17 "guests" here. I can just imagine...hey, come and look at what Shelby's thought up now!

So, your Death. Is he an angel or a demon? Is he out to take people from God, to subvert them so they go to Hell? Or do you still retain all of the JW teachings about Hell too?

Death is a real person, yes, dear Char (peace... and do I detect more snark from you? Really? Interesting... but no, not you - you're never snarky but always kind and "nice"... right?). He is the one sent through Egypt to take the breath of the firstborn. Who do YOU think went through? JAH Himself? How can that be... when JAH is LIFE, NOT death?



No, not like "Charon" at all. Charon is not a real person/entity. He is a construct by those who don't really understand the reality, but needed something to believe in. Like "Jesus." The "river Styx" is another construct, derived to explain the "chasm" that "Abraham" told the "Rich man" each could not cross. Humans need to put a face/picture on everything... because they walk by SIGHT... not by FAITH. And so, over millennia, all manner of stories, tales, and myths have been concocted and constructed to try and explain persons and things of the spirit realm. There is no need for us to be steeped in so much mystery and stories, though. We only need ask... and we can be led into ALL truth. As to this world AND that one.



Yeah, I once thought those were people, too, dear Char. Unfortunately, they're not; they're computer bots looking for places to spam with advertisements.



He's both, dear one. Angels and demons are really the same thing, for the most part. Although we tend to refer to "good" spirit beings as "angels" and "bad" ones as "demons," that's not accurate. ALL spirit beings are "daemons", which is what the word "demon" is derived from. "Angels" are merely spirit beings (daemons) that have the task of delivering messages (that's really what the word means - "messenger"). And both Christ and the Adversary have angels... so angels can be good OR bad.

For purposes of what you're asking, I think it's safe to say that Death is more of a demon ("bad" spirit being) than an angel (messenger for God/Christ)... but that's not entirely accurate, either. Because when he is used by JAH (and he has been, for instance, in Egypt) then he IS an angel, because he's delivering a "message" from JAH.



Well, yes... but not because he wants to turn them FROM JAH (his "son", the Adversary, wants that)... but because he wants the SPIRITS... or ENERGY... of such people. That is what he "feeds" on, dear one. He doesn't have access to the Tree of Life... and so he must get HIS "food" from something. Someone. Somewhere. That "food" is OUR energy/life force... which is pretty weak to begin with... and even more once we die (not a lot of "life" in us at that point).



To Hades, HIS realm/world... yes... again, for HIS survival.



No, I do not. They only thing they have right about THAT... is that it's not a place of burning and/or torture (that would be the Lake of Fire, Gehenna, which is not the same place, at all). But not only is their teaching that it's merely the common grave (versus an actual realm), their teaching that when the body dies and goes there, the spirit also dies... is totally false.

The spirit cannot die but must be destroyed. Those who go to Sheol/Hades merely sleep there... awaiting the general (second) resurrection. They don't have a LOT of spirit (not enough to have any thoughts/memories/or concerns as to what's going on HERE) but they're not entirely void of spirit. When my Lord goes there, they have just enough to be "awakened" by HIS presence, he being the Life (and so where HE goes, life goes). The spirits of those who belong to JAH to under the altar (a place of protection from spirit enemies)... where they, too, sleep... until THEY are resurrected (the first resurrection).

It's not deep stuff, really. It's just not of THIS world... and so most don't grasp/receive it... because their hearts... and thus their heads... are tied to THIS world... because they are yet fleshly. Ah, well, what can you do? It's up to JAH and Christ who "enters," yes?

I hope this helps.

My wish for peace for you remains.

A slave of Christ,

Shellmar

Shel,
Are you saying that "death" existed BEFORE Christ?

Well, this is fascinating; it's one of those questions I always struggled with myself - everyone knew Christ HAD to die, but nobody could explain why in a way that made sense and was satisfying.

I have been thinking about this for about two weeks now and remembering that the answer was given me many years ago; must have been back in my JW days, although the details have gotten fuzzy over time.

Christ? showed me the answer and it was very quick, simple and crystal clear - then.....He shut it up again. He did not allow me to retain the knowledge, and I don't even have a hint of what was shown. I just had the satisfaction of knowing there WAS a good reason for it all, and that would have to be enough. At least for the time being.

I was hoping it would come back to me, while reading the thread, or that something would be familiar, but so far it hasn't, darn it.

If anyone else has gotten direct knowledge from Christ (not the bible or church or what someone else has shared) please do share your experience here. I'm looking forward to the rest of the discussion of Death, contracts, etc.

Death is no life.

Life is no death.

So before there was life (Christ, the Light)... there was darkness ("over the surface of the deep"... genesis 1). Then God said, let there be light.


Peace,
tammy

Well, when you hear again, Ataloa... do share : )


Peace,
tammy

Shelby seems to be personifying death.
Shel seems to be imply that death is an actual BEING and that "he" existed BEFORE Christ.

Yes, dear P (mornin' and peace to you!). Genesis 1:1-5 shows us this (if we understand what is being said/described there!). I will share with you what I received from my Lord about it:

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

This isn't speaking about day and night as we know such (morning and evening); that didn't occur until the FOURTH day:

"And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day."

Bible translators had NO clue as to what was being spoken of in Genesis 1:1-5... and so the "false stylus of the secretaries[/b] wrote pursuant to MAN'S knowledge and understanding... AT THE TIME... and the lies have been further perpetuated ever since.

What Joseph (the writer) was relating here was that the Darkness, Death... existed... and that the Light, Christ... was brought forth (John 1:4, 5, 8, 9; 8:12). UNTIL the Life, dear one... there was Death.

JAH... is Life AND He is Death. HIS glory/dynamic energy (extreme radiation) can both create... and destroy. Which we NOW know (in OUR world)... and which is the TRUE meaning behind the words recorded at Isaiah 45:7. It is a power that, at one time, ONLY He could control; now, His Son has proven HE can control it, too.

Life and Death... are SPIRITS (Christ and the Destroyer)... FROM JAH... and in subjection TO JAH; one (Christ, JAHESHUA, the Holy One of Israel and HOLY Spirit) brings forth Life (John 14:6)... and one (Destruction/the Destroyer - Abbadon/Apollyon) brings forth death (1 Corinthians 10:10; Hebrews 11:28)

Spirit beings are real entities - living, breathing, beings. They are just not HUMAN. Not EARTHLING (physical) man... but spirit "man." And yes, dear one, Death is one of these spirits. And just like JAH has an "agent"... to bring those of mankind who wish it TO life... Death has an "agent"... the one called "Satan" and "Devil"... to bring those of mankind who DON'T wish to be led to life... to him (Death). He is the KING over Sheol/Hades, the world of the dead. Revelation 9:11

That is HIS realm, his "principality"... and, like Christ, the ONLY One not subject to him... is JAH Himself. Well, JAH and now Christ. But even other spirit beings can be brought under his authority and imprisoned in the lowest part of his realm, Tartarus, by JAH.

I realize that this might be something hard to "hear." But I offer to you: we have NO problem personifying every other thing in our known existence. Beasts, as well as inanimate objects (planes... cars... trains... trucks... houses... and much, much more)... all manner of things "walk" and "talk". Even false idols. And we have absolutely NO problem with that. We tend to have a problem, however, with REAL beings.. that REALLY walk and talk... but REAL... have personalities. From JAH Himself... who is a LIVING, BREATHING entity/person... to Death. Who also lives and breathes, just not in OUR realm.

But, as always, no one has to take my word for this. I am only sharing what I have been given by my Lord and/or seen myself by means of his spirit. As with everything else, I can only tell each one to go and ask for themselves. If one does, one only needs to put faith in what they hear, as to whether what I've shared is true or not... and so perhaps received the SAME spirit that allows THEM to see it... for themselves.

All one needs is faith to HEAR... and perhaps to transcend the flesh so as to be ABLE to be [taken] in the spirit... as Paul had to be to walk on water... and John had to be to receive the Revelation... and as Joseph had to be in order to receive these things in the first place and set them down (even though, again they've been seriously misunderstood and so misinterpreted since).

I hope this helps YOU, though, dear P... so as to maybe see what is not visible to our eyes of FLESH... but is certainly not hidden from our eyes of spirit!

Again, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shel