xjwsforChrist

I have no doubt that there are some things that the you, I, and the RCC agree on, dear Char (peace!). For example, looking after the poor, sick, orphaned, etc. Absolutely! In the same vein, there are things that I and others, including the WTBTS (though not much - LOLOL!), agree on.

I am certainly glad to be in agreement with you on something, too, though! In that light, I am VERY glad I could make YOUR day! LOLOLOLOL!

Peace to you!

A slave of Christ,

Shellama

Hello....

This is absolutely wonderful all of this. My spirit bears witness to this as well. Thank you for sharing what you have heard from our Lord once again.

This part is so good in that what the world and religion in general forgets is that SIN starts with "THE DESIRE". In the heart. Most think that its only sin when its been carried out. It becomes sin when we have this desire.
But most on the outside may never know or see this. We can fool people but not Holy Spirit.
And many in the world think that it is required to be so clean lol on the outside, when the desires inside of them have already rendered them dirty!

Awesome points! Thank you for further clarification!

As dear Mom (peace!) shared, sin starts with the desire INSIDE us. Some believe, however, and James seems to mean, that it is not sin until that desire is carried out. But that's not what HE (Christ) taught. HE taught that sin can absolutely be in the heart and NOT be born ("If a man so LOOKS at a woman so AS to have relations with her, he has COMMITTED adultery... IN HIS HEART").

Adham's SIN... wasn't in eating... but even before that.




He is not trying to teach us to conquer the VESSEL, though... as Paul (who later found out HE couldn't do it, either) implies in some of his letters. He DIED and gave his BLOOD for that. What he is trying to teach us... is to conquer the desires of the SPIRIT! The desires of the man we are ON THE INSIDE... that, like Adham, wants to be separate from/without God. The desires to hate, judge, be unmerciful and unforgiving, to lack faith, be jealous, covetous, idolatrous, adulterous (as to JAH!), etc.



YES!!! YES!!! Why Paul mentions in Romans the flesh and the spirit are at enmity with one another constantly.
Praise Jah, our Lord died and gave HIS blood to cover over our flesh of sin. That's been taken care of. He's concerned with helping us with the inside. That is the perfecting he is concerned with.

Thank you!!!!

We cannot have this union in the bodies we currently have, because they stand in the way. Stand OFF from God. Because of the sin that is IN them. So, we have a mediator, Christ. He "fills in the gap." But he is teaching us, PREPARING us... for the opportunity and privilege of being able to stand ON OUR OWN before God... as spirit beings do! In bodies that do NOT have sin... and so death!... IN them. They don't have a mediator as we do. They don't NEED one. They HAVE bodies that permit them to be one with JAH. WE... don't. And because of what Adham showed about those of THIS world, we cannot have such bodies... until we are ready to reside IN them... in the way, manner, and for the PURPOSE they were designed.



Amen to all of this my sister.
This training takes discipline every single day. We should welcome it!!! It is given to those that Jah calls his true sons. Hebrews 12: 4-11

Enjoyed all of this
Love to you all today
Justmom

"Doctrine" just means "teaching". A doctrine is just a belief, or understanding, that is held. In customary usage, it is usually found in speaking of the beliefs, and thus the teachings, of a religious group or church. The word itself is used, to my knowledge, largely by the churches, Catholic, Episcopalian, Orthodox and possibly others, and beyond those churches, which I know very well and with whose teachings I am sufficiently familiar to speak definitively, beyond them my knowledge is much more general.

So, the doctrines of a church are those beliefs held by them to be fundamentally important enough to become teachings, or doctrines.

The word has the same root word, the Latin "docere", meaning "to teach". It is the same root word that gives us "doctor", which in its old meaning meant a teacher. So, the very learned men (and women) who were so learned and were such deep thinkers that they were widely respected for their ability to teach and explain matters of God were called, formally, "Doctors of the Church".

The doctrine od original sin, Shelby, simply refers to mankind's natural tendency to sin, even sometimes against one's better intentions. We all have it. No-one is born without it. None of us is perfect. The only perfect man was Jesus.

I think I've said this before, at least once, but since you ask, Shelby, please forgive me if I am repeating myself. Saint Paul verbalised it almost better than anyone, when, according to Tyndall's translation all those hundreds of years ago in the sixteenth century, he wrote "the good that I would, I do not, but the evil that I would not, that I do."

We make mistakes. We start out meaning well, but then for all manner of reasons we are likely to fall into sin and error if we are not very careful. We may not kill or steal, but we may allow our baser feelings toget in the way time and time again.

Justmom, I still don't think it's right to say that "we are sin", nor even that our flesh is sin. If we think along those lines we fall into the trap of saying that only our spirit has any chance of being good. Yet as I've said,God made our flesh too. He made the Earth, land and water, plants and trees, birds of the air and fish of the sea, reptiles and mammals. We, as beings made by him, are not evil. We are just part of God's very own Creation, but we are given an added gift, a priceless gift, of free will. We do have the freedom to learn and gain insight into ourselves, even though it may mean swallowing some pride, and pride itself, of course, is a deadly sin.

Also, thinking that our spirit which acknowledges Christ is ok because it is spirit, but our flesh is bad, somehow distances us from the actual fact that we have sinned. It is a way of not owning that we have sinned through our own fault, by our own free choice. It's copping out. We ARE in control. We can choose. Every time.

I think you contradict yourself, dear Char.

Peace!

A slave of Christ,

Shellama

Please explain!

I'll have to see your meaning in the morning now! Goodnight!

None of us is perfect. The only perfect man was Jesus.

Justmom, I still don't think it's right to say that "we are sin", nor even that our flesh is sin.

Hello Char...

I'm going to just put verses out for you. Something to see that is written.
With regards to these two thoughts you mentioned only!

1. Romans 8:3 ( notice of flesh of CHRIST)
2. Hebrews 5:8,9 ( notice when he became perfect)
3. Philippians 2:7,8 ( emptied himself/ slaves form)
4. Hebrews 2:17, 18 ( became like us in ALL respects)
5. Matthew 8:17
6. Isaiah 53:10
7. Romans 3:23 ( soul is the body or vessel)
8. Romans 6:23 ( soul is the body or vessel not the spirit in us)
9. John 6:63


If our flesh did not have sin in it, then we would not die. It is not the flesh we are trying to save, it is the spirit in us that we want to live forever and be rewarded with a body of flesh that does not die.
The one that Adam was originally given. He traded it in and handed down this dying vessel as a gift to us. Ugh! This is the image we are made from UNTIL Jah restores everything back to his original plan. And CHRIST has made all this possibe!

Just a thought
Justmom

In two instances, dear Char (peace!). In the first instance, you state, on the one hand, that:



Yet, you also state:



This suggests that we CAN... NOT sin. If we are very careful. In which case we are NOT likely to sin. Which is a contradiction of the truth that we all DO sin. EVEN when we're careful... we will sin. As you say, we might not commit one kind of sin, but we WILL surely commit another. Otherwise, we are WITHOUT sin. Perfect. Yes?

Yet, you also state (and so your second contradiction)... that no one is perfect except Christ. He was perfect, yes, in that he did NOT sin. He was not perfect in flesh, though. Couldn't have been. Perfect flesh is INCORRUPTIBLE... and so cannot die. His flesh, however, died.

I think, that in your attempts to be "right", you are not thinking what you state here all the way through. And so you're putting out things that, on the surface, APPEAR to "sound" true (because they seem to "sound" good) but if one looks closely they will see, again, the contradictions. Actually, one doesn't even have to look to close - they are glaring, sometimes, dear one. If, however, you allowed yourself to be less concerned with your own "rightfulness" (and the teachings of those in whom you currently have your faith) and focused a bit more on JAH and Christ... and THEIR teachings... you might be able to nail down just what it is you believe. Or at least, state it without contradicting yourself.

I hope that helps, truly.

Peace!

A slave of Christ,

Shellama, who knows what the word "doctrine" means but just wanted to be clear as to what the doctrine of "original sin" was...

I would like to know, though, dear Char (again, peace to you!)... who it is YOU mean when you state "we". As in:



And:



I ask because I perceive you mean mankind in general... which, if so, is an error.

Also, I think I read where you stated that we are all "children of God." Can you share with me your source for that, whether written or perhaps from the Spirit? Because it seems that both Christ and the Apostle John said differently.

From Christ -

"I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word. I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father.”

“Abraham is our father,” they answered.

“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do what Abraham did." John 8:37-39


And...

"Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!" John 8:43-45


And...

"So! Your own evidence tells against you! You are the children of those who [i]murdered the prophets! Very well then, finish off the work that your ancestors began. You serpents, [u][b]brood of vipers, how can you escape being condemned to hell?" Matthew 23:31-33

[Note, murder is NOT a "mistake." Murder is premeditated, thought out in advance, sought, and intended. It is not accidental, not the product of stupid conduct or poor judgment (although we now have "2nd degree murder FOR wanton conduct, meaning conduct where one KNEW better and KNEW death could result, even if they didn't actually intent that result. But for JAH, murder is not a mistake. Also, "brood" is the numerous offspring of one, constituting a "family" of whatever.]


From John -

"This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, [i]nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister[i]." 1 John 3:10


So, now, both Christ and at least one Apostle seem to indicate that there are two fathers... each with their own children. Can you tell me, please, why you believe both John AND Christ are mistaken in this?

Again, peace to you!

A slave of Christ,

Shellama

ROFL!

You never fail, Shelby!

I knew it would be too much for you to agree with me!

And when I brought in the inescapable fact that you were also agreeing with the Catholic Church and actually over two thousand years of Christianity, well, the inevitable was clear. And you didn't fail, right down to the trump card, and the good old JW tried and true practice of twisting the Bible to mean exactly what you mean.

Carry on. It even works with some!

And to clarify, there is no contradiction in the bits you quoted just above.

None at all!

It's all in your own mind and heart, Shelby.

Yes, justmom, of course the sinful desire starts in the heart, and against our own better judgement. Exactly what I said. Again, Saint Paul: "the good that I would, I do not. The evil which I would not, that I do."

Romans 7:19

First, please... help yourself back on up, dear Char (mornin' and peace to you!) - it's a bit disconcerting talking to you while you're still down there. We're equals and grown women, so let's look each other in the eye, shall we?

Second, to the contrary, unlike some who believe they never fail (including, perhaps your dear self), I fail... and often. Which is why I am here, sharing what I receive with folks like you: because I DO fail and because of that I need a savior... and one has been provided. For me and for ALL of mankind. That TRUTH has not escaped ME... and so in my utter gratitude I believe the LEAST I can do to try and render SOME palty manner of repayment... is tell others about HIM. And what HE says. And do so... IN truth. Not in pitiable attempts to hold up some man-made belief system wrought with crimes and hypocrisy... while trying to convince others that it has ANYTHING to do with him... when nothing could be further from the truth.



I can't, luv, when what you state isn't TRUE... or contradicts itself. I KNOW that more than ANYTHING that is what you want from me: to agree with you. Unfortunately, in your desire for me to do so you overlook what IS true. You don't really care whether it is or isn't... so long as I agree with you. But that's the difference between you and I, dear Char: I don't need YOU to agree with ME... nor do I care if you do or don't. What I DO care about is whether I am in agreement with Christ. And no one else. No GB, no Pope, no scholar, no theologian, no elder, no priest, no bishop, no cardinal, no circuit overseer, no reverend, no pastor... NO "wolf." Only the Fine Shepherd. Because, as Paul said, "Let GOD be found true, though EVERY man a liar." Romans 3:4 Since God speaks THROUGH that One, the Fine Shepherd, "Wisdom" tells ME that he, the HOLY ONE of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah) is the ONLY One I should listen to as to the things related to God... worshipping God... and all things related to pleasing, displeasing, serving, being joined to, being separated from, without... or with... God.



Not sure what was clear now... that wasn't before, dear one. Most anyone here will tell you that I've always agreed that there is SOME truth in ALL religions. Else, they would be able to mislead people into thinking that had MORE. If their falsehoods were what were MOST prominent, NO ONE would follow them. So, of COURSE, they must have SOME truth. The Adversary KEEPS transforming HIMself into an angel of light... so there is no reason to think there aren't some flickers of light in those "cities." They ALL (christendom) came out of what Christ STARTED, but as he and others warned, wicked men would arise from WITHIN the Body... false christs, false prophets, impostates... resulting in a great "apostasy." The very city YOU worship... and worship IN... is one of the greatest manifestations of that. And I say "YOU worship" because you DO worship it, dear Char. That you are, once AGAIN, taking such pains to raise IT up... rather than Christ... clearly shows that. Even if YOU can't see it. I certainly can and I've no doubt others can as well.

But JAH's directive is to kiss the SON... not the RCC. YOUR lips, though, seem firmly planted on the latter.



You know, Char? I've been doing this, heralding my Lord, for some time now. And on the Internet, on forums such as this. And one thing I've come to know that NEVER fails... is that when folks can't dazzle with brilliance, they will attempt to baffle with BS. As here. Since you cannot speak to the things I've shared... or even OFFER contradicting facts or scripture/verses to support YOUR position (which seems to be that we should all join up with the RCC because THEY are the "true" church)... your only recourse is to falsely accuse me of mishandling the Bible. Praise JAH, though, that with perhaps one or two exceptions (well, one, now)... the folks here are actually pretty savvy. So, I think the TRUTH is that no one buys your BS attempts to cover YOUR ineptitude when it comes to the Bible... and, apparently, your knowledge of God and Christ. Unlike THESE, if YOU had even a clue... you would know that nothing I shared was twisted, that in reality the only ones who twist the Bible... are those like the ones you follow.

Again, I EXHORT you: buy eyesalve. And you know from Whom... and that it isn't the RCC.



I shall carry on... with MY work, as such has been given ME by my Lord. May I ask... what is YOUR work? What work has been given YOU... and what prevents you from seeing to it, rather than being SO concerned with MINE?

I HIGHLY doubt that you will respond, at least clearly... but I have to ask:

WHY are YOU here, dear Char? I know why I am here and why I keep coming. Why do you keep coming HERE? What are you LOOKING for? I mean, there must be a plethora of websites out there where practically EVERYONE would agree with you... as to ALL you believe. Yet, you keep coming here. Don't get me wrong: I LOVE it that you do... because it keeps MY hope for you... that you WILL "get it" someday... alive! So, please don't think I want you to leave - I absolutely do NOT. But I am curious, yes, and so wonder what you're looking for so that you keep returning.

Or should I ask WHO are you looking for? I know the latter isn't HERE... but I sometimes wonder as to whether the former is, as well. Only you know. But seriously, tell me, why ARE you here?

Peace to you!

A slave of Christ,

Shellama

Good morning Char...
I'm not sure this response above agrees with your comment below.?

Justmom, I still don't think it's right to say that "we are sin", nor even that our flesh is sin. If we think along those lines we fall into the trap of saying that only our spirit has any chance of being good. Yet as I've said,God made our flesh too. He made the Earth, land and water, plants and trees, birds of the air and fish of the sea, reptiles and mammals. We, as beings made by him, are not evil. We are just part of God's very own Creation, but we are given an added gift, a priceless gift, of free will. We do have the freedom to learn and gain insight into ourselves, even though it may mean swallowing some pride, and pride itself, of course, is a deadly sin.

Also, thinking that our spirit which acknowledges Christ is ok because it is spirit, but our flesh is bad, somehow distances us from the actual fact that we have sinned. It is a way of not owning that we have sinned through our own fault, by our own free choice. It's copping out. We ARE in control. We can choose. Everytime.


None of us is perfect. The only perfect man was Jesus.

Justmom, I still don't think it's right to say that "we are sin", nor even that our flesh is sin.

Hello Char...

I'm going to just put verses out for you. Something to see that is written.
With regards to these two thoughts you mentioned only!

1. Romans 8:3 ( notice of flesh of CHRIST)
2. Hebrews 5:8,9 ( notice when he became perfect)
3. Philippians 2:7,8 ( emptied himself/ slaves form)
4. Hebrews 2:17, 18 ( became like us in ALL respects)
5. Matthew 8:17
6. Isaiah 53:10
7. Romans 3:23 ( soul is the body or vessel)
8. Romans 6:23 ( soul is the body or vessel not the spirit in us)
9. John 6:63


If our flesh did not have sin in it, then we would not die. It is not the flesh we are trying to save, it is the spirit in us that we want to live forever and be rewarded with a body of flesh that does not die.
The one that Adam was originally given. He traded it in and handed down this dying vessel as a gift to us. Ugh! This is the image we are made from UNTIL Jah restores everything back to his original plan. And CHRIST has made all this possibe!


Just wanted to see if you understood why I posted the verses I did!
Thanks
Love Justmom

Oh, Shelby, you know why I am here.

You know, because I have told you explicitly, many times one-to-one, and openly to everyone, right here on the forum. However, Patience is a virtue. So, again, one more time...

I came here, last October, at the point where I realised the strength of my commitment to Jesus Christ, on the same day that I started again going to the Catholic Church, though in a neighbouring parish to begin with.

In both cases, it was for the same reason. Jesus Christ. The church, because I am Catholic and always will be. I never lost that faith although it was certainly shaken on the surface by contact with JW's. Fortunately, when it came to it, I stood firm and realised how badly I had betrayed both Christ and the Church by ever succumbing to the honeyed words of JW's. I came here, because, as you know, I was on an ex JW secularist site, having responded to an invitation from a friend on JWN who at that time, like yourself, was still on JWN. It was on that secularist site that there was mention of this forum. I looked at the forum and realised that there was much more here than they were allowing for. I also saw much that I liked.

You and everyone else who has been reading threads here since October. You and Tammy especially both know it doubly, from my posts on the forum, and from the Private Message correspondence I had at that time with each of you, independently. To each of you I made no secret of the fact that I was Catholic. Indeed, I told you some of my story and you told me some of yours.

I am quite sure that you do remember, and also that you had not forgotten when you asked. As to why you asked yet again...as you have before, and been answered explicitly before...so as to why you've felt it necessary to ask again, well, only you can answer that.

One more thing. Shelby, my previous two posts seem to have struck an unexpected nerve with you. I don't know why. Did you think I was mocking you? I wasn't. It was genuine amusement. Not nasty amusement. Not scorn. Not mockery. We all have different traits, and I am quite sure that I amuse you sometimes. I know that you do tend to respond too easily to many things by assuming that you are being somehow attacked.

I don't do veiled attacks. If I attack in discussion, it is clear. There was no attack here. Just amusement. Not mockery. Not scorn. That comes in plenty on this forum, and I'll say no more about it, but it's regularly observed. But a much nicer genuine amusement, a genuine appreciation of something that tickles one, is also around. And no harm done.

No offence was intended, Shelby, and none taken, I hope.

Justmom, thank you for your efforts to help bridge a gap.

I think that perhaps it is the difference in our backgrounds that leads us to consider the same passages but see them differently. Although I can see that you see these passages in the light of your own interpretation, to my mind I see them as doing nothing to confirm it as against what I've already said on the subject.

In reality, I think that in fact we see them very much alike, and I am quite sure that your motives and mine are very close together too.

I truly think that this is not really an argument, more like splitting hairs. To my mind, it's all best left at this point. I don't know what you think?

Does that suit you?

Thanks again, anyway.