xjwsforChrist

You are basically addressing what lead to the doctrine of "original sin".
A drive to sin that is "inherent" in all humans.

Hello Char,

We are sin in that the bodies we dwell in, the vessel of flesh we possess has sin and death in it.
Can't change that. We did not inherit this from Jah, as HIS IMAGE or vessel we did NOT inherit.
We inherited the bodies or vessel of flesh that Adam gave or handed down to us.

We cannot change the vessel of sin that we possess. We can only allow christ to cover over our sins by cleansing our bodies. This is why our Lord is, the only one that proved to be the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world. He offered himself, ONCE FOR ALL TIME!
So we do not need to sacrifice animals daily for us. He is that sacrifice for us. He is ready and willing to forgive our sins continually.

We do not stand condemned in this sin as long as we remain in union with him ( Romans 8:1 John 6:53-58)
And as long as we forgive, show mercy, compassion, do not judge , then we will remain covered as to our sin. If we do NOT remain in union with him and do not forgive, show mercy, compassion, and judge, then we will have to answer as to an accounting of our sins because we did NOT do to others and allow of them what we wanted done for ourselves. That makes us a hypocrite.

Hope this helps
Love Justmom

That's an ancient error, a false teaching furthered by the Gnostics, and recently given new life by books such as Dan Brown's the Da Vinci Code.

Our bodies are not vessels of sin. Our bodies were fearfully and wonderfully made by Almighty God, who made not only human beings but all of Creation, everything that is made is made by God. How could God make something that is sinful? That's a rhetorical question. He couldn't and wouldn't, because God is all good.

This particular error considers all physical matter and especially human bodies to be inherently sinful and evil, which is very close to what you said. When we think about it, there is no way that God, a being of all goodness, could make something bad.

How could Jesus the Son of God be born as human if physical humanity were evil? Clearly, Jesus was indeed born of Mary. It is we who sin because we inherit Adam's sin and thus are inclined to do so. But the substance of our bodies is not evil. It is flesh and bone.

Hope this helps.

Char..

I didn't say Jah made us sinful.

Adam was made in Jahs image and called " good" UNTIL...
Adam CHOSE to sin.

And we have inherited His sinFULL flesh. Flesh with sin in it.

I will have to disagree with you on this one.

Was not the adversary created as a cherub that was the most beautiful and precious by Jah...
UNTIL?.....
He chose to turn away as well and sin. But he didn't start out that way. Neither did Adam, but he chose his path as well. And we are in the image of Adam after his sin, not in the image he WAS and what Jah intended for us to be.

But the beauty is, that until we are released from these physical, weak, sinful bodies, we have ONE that gave his life in order to cover over this flesh of sin, so we don't have to stand condemned and answer for our sins. He forgives in such a large way! He covers over the transgressions for us!
Because of HIS BLOOD, he can do this!
As long as we remain in union with him until he comes and gathers us and gives a clean, garment or body.

Just a thought
Love Justmom

You're right, dear 'Mom (peace, luv!): JAH made the Adversary... yet He did not make the Adversary SIN. Same thing with Adham. Interestingly, He sent His Son NOT in the likeness of HIS (God's) flesh... but in the likeness of ADHAM'S flesh... and ours: sinFUL (as in FULL OF sin)... not sinLESS (as in withOUT sin). As Paul wrote:

"What the Law could not do because of the weakness of human nature, God did, sending his own Son in the same human nature as any sinner to be a sacrifice for sin, and condemning sin in that human nature." Romans 8:3 - NJB

For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh - NKJV

JAH did not create sin OR death... nor did He bring either into THIS world. Death (darkness) existed BEFORE the Light/Life (because the absence of life IS death)... and sin is the "product" of the darkness. Thus, death entered into THIS world... through SIN... which entered THROUGH Adham. When Adham SEPARATED from JAH... which he did when he chose ANOTHER to be his father/master (which is shown by who one OBEYS)... he "sinned". He became "without/separated from" JAH.

For this, he began to die (because he was CUT OFF from eating from the Tree of LIFE... Christ). And so, through his being separated from JAH... death came in THROUGH him... as was passed on to his progeny... including Christ... who was the son of Adham (in the FLESH; hence, "Son of MAN"), as WELL as the Son of JAH (Son of God).

I hope this helps and, again, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama

There you go!

Original sin in a nutshell! Thank you, Shelby!

Not in the words I'd use, but close enough. Nice to see you and me and the Roman Catholic Church in agreement!

The doctrine of "original sin" goes back to Paul's statements on how we are "driven" to sin, even form birth and is suppose to address Paul's comment on the "death" that entered the world via Adam and passed on to us all.
Here is the thing, I was never a fan of original sin doctrine because of what I thought It meant in the negative way.
And there still are parts of it that I don't like.
That said, experience has taught me that we are indeed born with a "desire" to sin, even if we don't know it to BE sin yet.
How many of us had done wrong KNOWING it is wrong?
All of us, period.
That drive is PART of original sin and the rest is what I have come to see even more often and that is:
The erroneous belief that we can "do it on our own", a "desire" to be apart from God and to be, well...miserable.

Hello Paul

Your comment reminded me of the verse in...

Jam 1:15 Then, after desire has conceived ( or becomes fertile) it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

Since this desire starts in our hearts and we know how treacherous our hearts ARE...

We need Christs covering daily! ( I know I don't trust mine )

Thanks for this
Love Justmom

Morning and peace to you all! I am not sure we agree, dear Char (mornin' and peace to you!)... because I am not sure what the (doctrine) of "original sin" is. I have seen this term used quite a bit since being online these many years but don't recall it (or hearing it) as a WTBTS teaching (at least, not in those words). Dear P's comment (peace, luv!) implies that is a doctrine... and so I'm not sure it comports with the TRUTH, regardless of who teaches it.

Can someone clarify for me what the "doctrine" is, please? I will look it up, of course, and ask my Lord to help me "see" what is meant, but just in case I still don't get the gist... or in case what some THINK it is isn't quite that... I welcome any input. Please don't cut and paste, though, but give a summary? What YOU know/think/believe it is?

Thanks... and peace to you all!

Your servant and a slave of Christ,

Shellama

Doctrine is a formal explanation of something.
In the case of religious doctrines, they are formal proclamations of the way a certain religion interprets certain things, typically bible passages OR issues that may have arisen over the years.

EX:
http://www.theopedia.com/Original_sin

Original sin is the doctrine which holds that human nature has been morally and ethically corrupted due to the disobedience of mankind's first parents to the revealed will of God. In the Bible, the first human transgression of God's command is described as the sin of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden resulting in what theology calls the Fall of mankind. The doctrine of original sin holds that every person born into the world is tainted by the Fall such that all of humanity is ethically debilitated, and people are powerless to rehabilitate themselves, unless rescued by God.

There are wide-ranging disagreements among Christian groups as to the exact understanding of this doctrine, with some so-called Christian groups denying it altogether. Eastern Orthodoxy, Judaism, and Islam acknowledge that the introduction of sin into the human race affected the subsequent environment for mankind, but deny any inherited guilt or necessary corruption of man's nature.

However, G. K. Chesterton once noted that "Certain new theologians dispute original sin, which is the only part of Christian theology which can really be proved," (Orthodoxy, chap. 2). He saw original sin as the one Christian doctrine that is empirically verifiable and validated by 3500 years of human history.

Ahhh, yes, dear P (peace, luv!)... it's saying that Adham's disobedience is the "original" sin. And that because of that sin... everyone else sins... because Adham passed on that TENDENCY, yes? Which is what the WTBTS teaches, I believe.

But that is not the case at all. If it was, then Abel would have been like Cain, wouldn't have been able to HELP it. Yet, he was not. The error is in the thinking that WE inherit sin from Adham BECAUSE he sinned, and not because it's inherent in the LONG GARMENT OF SKIN, the body of flesh with ITS blood, that he received, indirectly as a result of his sin.

Here is how my Lord explained it to me:

As dear 'Mom (peace!) shared, sin starts with the desire INSIDE us. Some believe, however, and James seems to mean, that it is not sin until that desire is carried out. But that's not what HE (Christ) taught. HE taught that sin can absolutely be in the heart and NOT be born ("If a man so LOOKS at a woman so AS to have relations with her, he has COMMITTED adultery... IN HIS HEART").

Adham's SIN... wasn't in eating... but even before that. Not even in DESIRING to eat, but before THAT. His SIN... goes back even further than the reason FOR that desire (to be "like" God, knowing good/life and bad/death). It goes back to WHY did he want to BE like God: because... HE WANTED TO BE SEPARATE FROM GOD... WITHOUT GOD... and so a completely separate entity that wasn't connected to... or dependent upon... God. And THAT... is "sin." It was the SAME... "unrighteousness"... that was found IN the Adversary!

The sin IN him... caused him to carry OUT that desire... to be separate from/without God... and so he ate, in PURSUIT of that desire. Eve, on the other hand, ate... because SHE thought she could do so and not die; NOT because she wanted to be separate from/without God. Adham did not pass on THAT desire, though... to be separate from/without God... because not ALL wish to be separate from/without God! We have the accounts of MANY who sought (and remained in) union with God. And we have ourselves.

What Adham passed ON... was the VESSEL given him to cover his "nakedness"... his LACK of LOVE ("clothe yourselves with love")... which nakedness (lack of love... for GOD) was REVEALED through the body he had at the time: spirit beings CANNOT hide what is IN them... and while IN the garden, Adham was IN SPIRIT ("inspired"). Unlike the body he received AFTER... and the one we inherited from him... the body of flesh with ITS blood... which can and DOES hide what's in us! But only from us, other humans, and angels. NOT from God Himself... or His Christ.

THAT body, the one Adham later received, BOUND that desire to be separate from/without God (sin)... and so DEATH (because God is LIFE)... IN him (and Eve)! And binds it in US! And that is why our bodies... and our SPIRITS... are at enmity. Why although our SPIRIT might want to do one thing... especially that which GLORIFIES God... our BODIES... want... and often DO... another thing. Things that bring reproach to God, by means of allowing Him to be taunted by the Adversary). Things that "separate" us from God. Even when our spirits are crying out to be JOINED to God.

And so we (could) engage in a lifelong battle, our flesh against our spirit. When we COMMIT sin... WITH OUR BODIES... JAH already knows the fight we may have gone through (if we did go through a fight). Even more so since His Son came and resided in the SAME kind of vessel... and so can speak FOR us when we are weak and give in to that vessel. He KNOWS the fight. Because HE fought EVERY one we have. Yet, HE did not sin with HIS vessel... but "conquered" it.
And through HIS victory, WE can "win" against the flesh. Because while we may STILL sin (with our bodies)... HIS blood can cover such sin!

He is not trying to teach us to conquer the VESSEL, though... as Paul (who later found out HE couldn't do it, either) implies in some of his letters. He DIED and gave his BLOOD for that. What he is trying to teach us... is to conquer the desires of the SPIRIT! The desires of the man we are ON THE INSIDE... that, like Adham, wants to be separate from/without God. The desires to hate, judge, be unmerciful and unforgiving, to lack faith, be jealous, covetous, idolatrous, adulterous (as to JAH!), etc.

The body of flesh ABSOLUTELY wants that separation! Why? Because it is NOT from "above" (NOT meaning from the sky... but "higher" as in a higher form of LIFE - Christ emptied himself out... his SPIRIT from its TRUE vessel... and took a SLAVE'S "form" - put that spirit in a HUMAN body!). It originates with THIS world (where lower forms of life exist)! And so is loyal to IT's "mother" ("Hagar", the physical realm)!

God's PURPOSE, however, was for the seed to take on HIS flesh (flesh with HIS blood, holy spirit)... and so be in HIS image... and "Sarah's"! The "mother" who ADOPTED Adham... and will ADOPT us! Which adoption will result in us having bodies FROM ABOVE (Galatians 4:26). He started with Adham... who missed the PURPOSE!

And so something is happening for US... that was not granted to Adham. HE was given such a body BEFORE he knew how to conquer his spirit; how to "CHOOSE the good and REJECT the bad." He would have LEARNED, had he kept HIS face toward the "cover" - Christ. WE... if we submit to him, Christ... and keep our faces turned toward and our gaze upon him... have the opportunity to learn how to do this. We have the opportunity that Adham REJECTED: to be TAUGHT how to exist in a SPIRIT body... and NOT sin! By CHRIST, the Teacher! That is the very PURPOSE of his "subduing" us and teaching us peace: to teach us HOW to conquer the SPIRIT... so AS to conquer the FLESH... so as to BE sons of God... and NOT do as Adham did... and seek to be separate from/without God.

As Christ showed, he who remained IN (union with) JAH... did nothing of his OWN initiative, but just as the Father taught him, guided him, led him. ONE. WITH God. Not one... on his own, separate from and without God. THAT is "Beli'Jah'El"... whose names MEANS "Without JAH as his God". And those of us, mankind, who seek this independence, this separation, this individuality that is SEPARATE from JaHVeH, the MOST HOLY One of Israel... are following that one, the one without JAH as his God.

Dear ones... we are being prepared "as a Bride adorned for her husband." To be a city... of PEACE! NOT peace among mankind, but peace... between man... and GOD! Reconciled to Him! And it is important! Why?

So that we can be GIVEN such bodies, those in the image of God... and not abuse them, their power, or... miss their purpose: to be JOINE TO GOD, ONE with Him... IN UNION... and NOT separate from/without Him.

We cannot have this union in the bodies we currently have, because they stand in the way. Stand OFF from God. Because of the sin that is IN them. So, we have a mediator, Christ. He "fills in the gap." But he is teaching us, PREPARING us... for the opportunity and privilege of being able to stand ON OUR OWN before God... as spirit beings do! In bodies that do NOT have sin... and so death!... IN them. They don't have a mediator as we do. They don't NEED one. They HAVE bodies that permit them to be one with JAH. WE... don't. And because of what Adham showed about those of THIS world, we cannot have such bodies... until we are ready to reside IN them... in the way, manner, and for the PURPOSE they were designed.

And yes, it's all right there in the Bible, as well as in other writings. I did not include the verses now because if you only ASK you will see the truth in these things... as well as be guided by him, the HOLY ONE of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah), to where such things ARE written. Please... try that, first, and if you still need to "see it in writing," let me know. I will oblige... when I am permitted to.

I hope this helps.

Again, peace to you all!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama

The doctrine of original sin is somewhat debated.
The details that is, not so much the "fact" that there is an "original sin".
IMO, the "original sin" is what I sated above: a "desire" to be "apart" from God but I think that it may be more correct to state that the sin is to BE LIKE GOD.
In short, we don't need God because we are like Him.
Since we were designed to be IN God, in communion and fellowship, this seperation is what beings about all that is bad in the world.
YET, we have a drive to be that way ( separate from God) and that is the sin we are "born with", the original sin of Adam and Eve,

I hear you, dear P (peace!)... but I think we ARE supposed to want to be like God... just not SEPARATE from Him IN being like Him. Like Christ is: like God (exactly, actually)... yet joined/in union... and not separate. I mean, if God is LOVE... then that IS what we should want to be, as well, yes?

YET, we have a drive to be that way ( separate from God) and that is the sin we are "born with", the original sin of Adam and Eve,

WE have that drive because of the VESSEL we inherited; it IS separated from God and so pulls at US to be so, too. Adham and Eve did NOT have such a vessel at the time they did what they did. And remember, Eve isn't even a part of the TRUE "original sin", except that she and Adham were "one." Since she came OUT of him, she was him. Sin, however, didn't enter through Eve; she was deceived. HER desire was to eat and not die.

Sin entered... through Adham, who, although NOT having a vessel that pulled at him to be separate from God... WANTED to be separate from/without, because of his OWN desire. The sinful (to be separate from/without God) desire IN him. This wasn't a desire to be "like" God... in that God is love and IN UNION with those in Him. It was a desire to be "like" God in that HE (Adham) would have used such likeness to be autonomous FROM God. Can you imagine, though, the havoc wreaked on creation if such a being existed? We already know it: Death! And so Adham CHOSE Death as his "father"... thereby rejecting JAH as such.

THAT... is WILLFUL sin. CHOOSING to be separate from/without God. Which is not the same as sinning with one's body (which is an enemy so will lead us to sin; which is why Christ gave his life and blood - to COVER those sins).

When we CHOOSE to be separate from/without God... we are blaspheming AGAINST His holy spirit. This doesn't necessarily include atheism, though, because such ones usually never KNEW God, so AS to choose to be separate from/without HIM; they are just choosing to be separate from/without the idea/ideology/CONCEPT of God... as they know it/"Him" (and so usually based on the CONDUCT of those who claim TO know God... which is what is meant by "stumbling" others - not conduct that hurts their feelings or causes them to leave a religion, but conduct that causes them the DENY God... or even want to learn about/know Him).

I hope this helps and, again, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama

Yep, I agree Shel