xjwsforChrist

Actually, it's accurate, the emphasis is accurate... and there is another way around it, dear Char (peace to you!). Two ways, actually:

1. Because those who are in union with Christ have no condemnation; and

2. Christ doesn't judge. He CAN... because he has been given the AUTHORITY... but he doesn't. Because he humbly grants that RIGHT back to the Father.

I posted to this, above. But just in case you missed that:

As to those who are in union with Christ, they have no condemnation... because his blood "covers" their sins. Paul mentioned this. Romans 8:1. Christ did, too:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

"Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

[Jesus] said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” John 6:48-57



I think you mean a different "us" (perhaps the world of mankind) than some of us others do (the Body of Christ). Even so, you misunderstand. Mercy does not judge. Mercy triumphs OVER judgment. That's why it's CALLED mercy.



Far be it from me to take the side of the WTBTS, but while they may be wrong in HOW they teach this, the saying itself is not wrong. Unless you believe my Lord's brother, Jude, to have been wrong. For he is the one who said it:

"But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying through holy spirit, keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord [Jesus] Christ to bring you to eternal life." Jude 1:21

Your comment, then, only serves to further in my mind that you truly do not know the Bible as you often claim you do. You obviously overlooked those verses we all included above. Can you really keep doing that, calling the teachings of others wrong... although they are recorded in the Bible... while touting your understanding as correct, based on... what, exactly? Your "feelings"?



When he arrives, dear one, the only ones who will be taken into account are the sheep and the goats. By that time, those who belong to him have already been "judged"... by means of their calling, choosing, and anointing. That is what the anointing is FOR. Since they ARE anointed, there is no reason TO judge them... because HE has already made such ones clean, by means of HIS blood... which they drink. See?



No, actually, it's correct and accurate. It is the GOOD news of the kingdom.



First, no, Paul didn't say that. John did. In the second of his letters canonized in the Bible. Second...



That is a misunderstanding, actually. He died once... for all WHO PUT FAITH IN HIM. THOSE folks. If what you state is true, then we might as well all go out and commit whatever sin/error against whomever we wish to... because we ALL be shown mercy. To think that THAT is the case... is an arrogance. It entirely misses the purpose OF his sacrifice.



Third... that really is the case. That once one comes to Christ and drinks from HIM, one's sins and errors up to that time are forgiven... and forgotten. If one sins AFTERWARD, then one can ASK for forgiveness based on his propitiatory sacrifice. EXCEPT... if one sins... but does not forgive or show mercy to one who sins against THEM... then ALL of their sins are reinstated:

"... the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold was brought to him. Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt. At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.

“But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded. “His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’
“But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt.

"When the [b]other servants saw what had happened[/b], they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.

“Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

“This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.” Matthew 18:21-35

We are forgiven... and shown mercy... AS we forgive and SHOW mercy. And we start with a CLEAN slate, once we've joined to Christ. That's why we are called VIRGINS. One doesn't have to DO anything to have one's sins cleansed to start... except come TO Christ, in FAITH, and in that faith, partake of his flesh (so as to be "cured") and blood (so as to be "cleansed"). Doing this (partaking) is what RATIFIES the "covenant" we HAVE with him... "for a kingdom." It is our "Yes!" as Israel cried out yes at Mount Sinai... and so binds us to the NEW (Law) Covenant... of LOVE... just as saying yes and being sprinkled with the blood of BULLS ratified bound Israel to the OLD (Law) Covenant.



Although your words sound "weighty"... they truly don't carry weight you think they do. Because they are inaccurate and lack truth. In that light, you might consider taking the advice you often give others. True, their shipping is sinking... but so is yours, dear Char. I realize that, given the longevity, you don't THINK it is... but the Jews didn't think their temple/golden calf was going to come to an end, either. Rather than calling for others to get out and swim... while your own life raft is taking on water... perhaps you might consider that the "water" in your boat ISN'T "holy"?



No, it's really not the same thing at all. The Pharisee didn't even believe he HAD sin. Those of the Body of Christ, however, know... for a FACT... that they not only have sin but ARE sinners... and so, like the tax collector plead for MERCY. Constantly. Day in AND day out. Just without all of the pomp, and robes, and hats, and bookbags, and fancy buildings, etc., that others have so that others will THINK they think themselves "sinners." You know, have "godly devotion." These plead THROUGH Christ... and they are NOT denied that mercy but ENSURED of it. That is what the anointing with holy spirit IS: a "token"... until the REALITY arrives. So, just as Naaman was cleansed simply bathing in the water in Jordan... these are cleansed simply by bathing in the "water" that is holy spirit. LIVING water. As Elijah told Naaman to GO to the water (in the Jordan)... Christ calls THESE by saying "COME!"... to the "water." That "water" is in HIM... and HE pours it out UPON those "wishing" and "thirsting."



Then please consider... stopping your doing of it? Because you do it ALL the time, as to ones here and in particular those associating with the WTBTS. Now, I realize that you don't THINK you are doing it... or SEE that you are... but you are. Just... consider it.



In that tale, the son returned home ONCE, not repeatedly. Show me, though, please... indeed, show ALL of us here, where the Apostles showed themselves to come to him repeatedly in penitence and sorrow. Please. Indeed, they often showed a LACK of both... arguing with each other, falling out with each other... leaving him, denying him... yet, he put up with them. Why? Because they were penitent? No. Because they had FAITH in him... and that he was the Son of God.

(I am reminded by him now to remind YOU of Saul of Tarsus and to ask you where that man BEFORE BEING CALLED AND CHOSEN... showed penitence and sorrow. To the CONTRARY, he did NOT, until my Lord himself met him on the road to Damascus.)



Just as it worries some of us that you believe you are right... in SPITE of what Christ said, the Apostles said, Paul said, etc., AND that you DON'T make such claim, NOR do you glorify God or Christ... or claim holy spirit... or anything. Nothing more than some men who dress in fancy garb (albeit, worn sometimes, yes) "said so." Actually, it doesn't worry us but just sort of makes us feel great sorrow for YOU. Because you claim to "see"... when it is very clear that you do not. But it doesn't have to be that way. There IS One who sells eyesalve... and it's FREE...



No, sorry, that is not accurate, either. The demons believe. They KNOW Christ is the Son of God. They CALLED him "Lord" and "Son of David." Are THEY part of the Body of Christ/Church of God???



Please see above. SATAN believes in One God, the Father Almighty... and in Christ, his only-begotten son (who is NOT God's only son. Surely, you remember Adham, yes? As what of those called to BE sons? Some even think the angels are God's sons; they're not, but some think that). If all of this is true, how can Christ be his ONLY son? He is not. He is God's only-BEGOTTEN son... by the "woman", Jerusalem Above. Galatians 4:26; Revelation 12:1-6

You really should take a few minutes and re-read your Bible, dear one. Really. Or at least look up the verses folks share with you. Or at least stop referring to someone/Christ as saying something they didn't.



No. He did not suffer "under" Pontius Pilate. Pilate... wanted to RELEASE him. Pilate was KIND to him. Pilate simply delivered him up TO those under whom he suffered... so that those could have THEIR wish: his death. He suffered way more during his time under arrest with the Sanhedrin than he did while with the Roman guard, Char. You REALLY should take a moment and read your Bible.



Funny, I remember rotely parroting that very same incantation, too... as a Lutheran. I didn't know it was wrong when I did it, either.



THAT... is the sum of Catholic TRADITION, dear one, not christian belief.



No, this takes place at least a thousand years BEFORE the judgment, during the time that Christ separates the sheep from the goats... which takes place just AFTER the first resurrection. You disregard both, the first resurrection... and the work that follows that... because you only know of the general resurrection. A review of your Bible MIGHT help you get some understanding as to these two prior events; however, not if you insist on leaning upon your own understanding... rather than allowing Christ, the Holy Spirit, to lead you. Into ALL truth. About these things and everything else.



Sorry, no, wrong again. But since beat THAT math lesson to death, I won't elaborate any further than to say, once again, there is no "third" person. Someone made it up... and, sadly, you are still following that made-up myth... and those who propagate it. You don't HAVE to, though. You COULD... TURN AROUND... and follow the Lamb. I mean, that One will lead you to fountains of waters of life. If you're TRULY thirsty, then...

On the other hand, if you're of those who think think THEY are rich and not in need of anything... I would recommend buying eyesalve FIRST, so that you can see HIM... so as to see the water.

Peace!

A slave of Christ,

Shellama

Some has been covered already, so I will just add a couple of things:



I was not thinking that. But this, as my Lord has reminded me:

"For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned." Matt 12: 34-37

And in Revelation 20:12-13:

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.




There is no judgment for those who are in Christ... because HE and His blood covers them. Death has no hold on them; they have crossed over from death to life.

If anyone has not shown and does not show mercy, then that person cannot expect to be SHOWN mercy, themselves.




I cannot speak as to the WTS... though I see that both Shelby and Leaving have reiterated as to that verse, keep ourselves in God's love.

But as for 'good'... it is not about being 'good'... for there are none who are good but God. (good being the absent of bad, which none of us can claim)

It is about faith in Christ, the One God sent to us.


I think most of the rest has been covered, but I did also want to add to what has been stated, that there is no judgment for those who are IN Christ. This does not mean that those who are in Christ can now go out and do whatever they want, and hurt whoever they want. (those who do think that might want to consider whether or not they truly are in Christ and listening to HIm to begin with).

Christ TEACHES those who belong to Him... in the here and now. He has certainly pointed out where I am sinning, and in need of covering, and I am sure He has more to show me, but He does so in truth AND in mercy. Though I could not expect any mercy, if I did not also who mercy to those who wrong me.

Peace,
tammy

No, none of us can, dear tec (peace, luv!)... for until now death ("bad") rules, does it not, in ALL of us... except One: the HOLY ONE of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah)? Praise JAH it did NOT have dominion over him... because he, being the Life... and having the keys TO death and Hades... can, by means of HIS blood... set us free! Now, through our consciences... and then, through our flesh... BOTH... by means of his... wait for it... MERCY!

Ditto as to all else you shared!

Peace!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama

Yes!

Peace,
tammy

I may be misapplying these words, but John 3:18 comes to mind: "He that believeth in him is not judged. But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God." Douay-Rheims Bible

Some translations say "condemned" instead of "judged". The Greek word κρίνεται, Strong's 2919 means "to judge, decide".

Your interpretations all fall down right at the very beginning with your misunderstanding of the Body of Christ, Shelby.

It reminds me of a time some fifty years ago when I was youth his telling with a girlfriend from uni in the Lake District. At that time neither of us were Roman Catholic, we were both still Anglican. We came to a town by the name of Keswick, which Loz will undoubtedly know, where at least in those days there was an annual gathering of extreme Protestant Evangelicals. It was known as the Keswick Convention. Maybe it still happens every summer. I don't know, though Loz might. Anyway, as we entered the town, we were halted by a team of young students like ourselves, greeting us with smiles. Then "Are you saved?" They asked. "Er...what do you mean?" We asked, with sinking hearts. Neither of us had met this kind of thing before. "Has Jesus saved you?" They asked.

Young though we were, we sensed all the trap within that question, which is very much of the "when did you last beat your wife?" variety. In other words, a barbed, dangerous question, to which any answer could be self-incriminating.

In the case of the Evangelical question, the trap is of directly contradicting Jesus' own teaching, his own words, the Word of Almighty God himself. God sent His only Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, to save everyone, all mankind, explicitly absolutely NOT an exclusive few. He has dire warnings for those who think they are among the chosen ones. A good, lowly, humble and faithful heart is all. Listen to His Words, we are told. That's what I've done all my life and that's what I'll continue to do. He has warnings for those who think they are above everyone else. Your outlook and idea of an exclusive Body of Christ is reminiscent of that evangelical outlook, running counter to God's own words and the whole truth and purpose of the Incarnation.

As to everything else you've said, at this hour of night I must leave it to another time. Enough is enough.

I don't think you're misapplying it, dear LQ (peace... but perhaps you copied in the wrong Greek word*?). I looks to me like not only provided an appropriate verse but an accurate transliteration (of the word I THINK you mean, κρίνω... or krinō (Strong's G2919)... versus κρίνεται, which translates as "is").

While meaning, among other things, "judge", krinō (Strong's G2919) does NOT also mean "condemn"

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex ... 2919&t=KJV

On the other hand, the Greek word katadikazō (Strong's G2613) which was NOT used in the verse, means both "judgment" AND "condemn".

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex ... 2613&t=KJV

The translators' use of this latter word is misleading as it translates judging and condemning as the same thing... and they're not exactly. One must be judged FIRST, THEN condemned (to carry out the "sentence" related TO the judgment). For instance, Jimmy robbed a store and the clerk was killed. Jimmy was judged by a jury to have committed murder. Now, the jury COULD commute his sentence, in which case he IS judged... but not CONDEMNED. Most likely, the jury will judge him (a murderer)... and then the court (judge) will hand down the SENTENCE to which Jimmy will be CONDEMNED:

"How do you, the jury, find?"

"We find Jimmy, guilty, your Honor, of murder!"

"So say you ALL?"

"Yes, your Honor!"

"James Killer, a jury has found (judged) you guilty of murder. You hereby sentenced (condemned) to death."

Since Christ is recorded to say one who believes in him is not JUDGED... then there is NO WAY such can be CONDEMNED. Because, with God, one must be judged (found guilty of a crime) in order to BE condemned (to carry out the sentence, including death, resulting from the judgment).

In our world, one can be judged WITHOUT being condemned (again, a commuted sentence), but one who is condemned WITHOUT having been judged FIRST... has been condemned unjustly.

It is even more so the same with the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies.

For those who would ask, "Then why were some killed/do we die NOW... without a trial/judgment." The answer to that is that it is not JAH who calls for that sentence... nor is the sentence true condemnation. Death calls for the sentence (the wage of sin is death)... and the sentence, being temporary, is not permanent. Condemnation, when it relates to JAH... is permanent.

I hope this helps and, again, peace to you!

Your servant and a slave of Christ,

Shellama

They're not my interpretations, dear Char (peace!). I included substantiation (which I notice is always missing from YOUR... contributions). But by ALL means, please enlighten me. Show me they fall down... and on what your understanding stands.



I am not sure how you're making the connection, dear one, other than to say that YOUR mind is reminding you... and not what I shared. I did not ask you that question; I haven't asked it of anyone in my entire life. And I can't see why I would ask that question of ANYONE. JAH shows mercy to whomever HE wishes to show it. And so, so long as such one isn't (manifesting that they are) AGAINST me... they are, for all intentions and purposes... FOR me... as far as I'M concerned. Whatever they claim or do not claim, believe or do not believe.



Please... SHOW me this, dear Char. Show me where he taught this... in his OWN words. If you don't/can't... on what do you wish me to base my belief that what you say is TRUE? Because YOU say it? But I have not heard my Lord say it... nor have I read where he said, at least not as YOU are trying to state it. He came to SAVE everyone... yes. And EVERYONE CAN put faith in him. ALL have the OPPORTUNITY to. But everyone WON'T. And in the end, it's only those who do put faith in him, yes? Else, again, what is the PURPOSE of HAVING faith in him... if one can be saved WITHOUT it? And since everyone DOESN'T... but you say they will be saved ANYWAY... please tell me what the point of faith is him IS? WHY observe Mass, dear Char? Why pray? For WHAT?

.

Really? Can you point me to one? Just one? I fear for you, that the mean you follow... who claim themselves to be "chosen"... have taught YOU to reject the choosing. In essence, shutting up the kingdom of God before YOU.



I don't disagree, although I know that while good, lowly, and humble are DESIRABLE, faithful is required, except in very rare instances (i.e., Saul of Tarsus).



Yet, you don't. You don't even know what his words are. You don't even believe he SPEAKS... so that you can KNOW his words.



And you are more than welcome to do so, dear Char. I have seen NOWHERE here where anyone is trying to get you to do anything different. I certainly am not trying to get you... or ANYONE... to do ANYTHING. Because NO ONE comes to the Christ... unless the FATHER draws them... and no one comes to the Father... except through the Son. So I certainly am not trying to lead you anywhere. I am simply sharing what my Lord has given ME, whether others hear or refrain. I have yet to see where you make the same claim... but that's okay. I don't bear you any illwill for that. My faith in and love for JAH and Christ has nothing to do with whether others agree with me. Like others you may come and go, and so we part ways on our journey. Or you may stay and we continue our journey together. Neither has a bearing on MY faith in God and Christ... or MY walk with Christ, though. Not at all.



Dear Char, you SAY things... but you never produce anything to back it up. I have no choice but to see you as speaking pursuant to your own understanding... which, if the RECORD is to be believed even a tiny bit... is what we're warned against.



By all means, do not let me keep you. I would ask you again, though, to check your heart as it's nakedness is showing again. It might need a bit of clothing. I'm sure you know that love can make a pretty good sweater.

Peace!

A slave of Christ,

Shellama

I got the word from here:
http://biblehub.com/text/john/3-18.htm



It looks like the resource you use and the one I use are not in agreement on this.
http://biblesuite.com/greek/2919.htm shows:


I'm not arguing for or against any specific translation, but it appears that, in this verse, "judge" is more appropriate being that that is the primary definition of the work.

Interesting, dear LQ (peace to you!). When I click on the link for Strong's 2919, I get this site:

http://biblesuite.com/greek/2919.htm

I can't find the word condemn there or anywhere that I search Strong's G2919. I do see where the word kekritai is, with the link to 2919 (although, I think the right word is krinetai?). I clicked on the link for the word kekritai, though... which takes one to instances of the use of the word... but can't see to find where this verse applies.

But I did find this:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cf ... JV#conc/18

Do you see the word (in the Greek) krinetai? It's the third word on the second line (in the Greek)... and translates to "is". Now, if you look down in the Strong's chart, you will see where an error has occurred: where the word "is" is... is the Greek word κρίνω or krinō. But if you look down two more words, you'll see the Greek word κρίνω or krinō, next to "condemned." And if you look down further, you will see where κρίνω krinō is denoted as "is condemned."

It is possible that there's an error in the CONCORDANCE transliterations? For example, as shown in the transliteration here:

http://interlinearbible.org/john/3-18.htm

... where the first instance of G2919 occurs (to define the word "is")? Should the word krino there be κέκριται or krinetai... which MEANS "is" verses krino, which means judge/condemn? Trying putting these words in a Greek/English translator and you will get "is", not "judge" OR "condemn". And notice both krekitai AND krinetai is translated as G2919, yet G2919 is neither of these but krino... which is "judge" but not "condemn"?

Just a curious set of data, dear one. I realize many would roll their eyes and say "Oh, who cares!" I dunno... I do. I LOVE words and etymology.

Peace!

Your servant and a slave of Christ,

Shellama

If, on the link you clicked on, you click on the Strong's tab at the top, you'll get to this link:
[url]
http://biblesuite.com/strongs/greek/2919.htm[/url]

In it is not only Strong's Concordance, but also Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, which, apparently is where I saw "condemn".



Interesting. Yes, as you say, a curious set of data. I am no expert. As they say, "it's all Greek to me!" LOL!

We cool!

Peace!

Your servant and a slave of Christ,

Shellama

LQ, to clear up this particular possible misunderstanding, I'd like to emphasise that just because my previous post followed immediately upon your own, please don't think that it was actually responding to or commenting on that post from you. I wasn't. I was specifically commenting on one passage which I took and quoted from Tec's post. Yes, I knew from past experience that Shelby would not just be in full agreement with her but would soon be echoing and reinforcing it, but my post was just answering Tammy and by inevitable extension, what Shelby would...and did...add.

I wasn't answering you. There was nothing in your post with which I'd disagree at all.

I think it is important to understand that the moment we accept Christ and are part of His Body, we are judged and we are to repent.
That is why there is no further judgment per say.
As we live in Christ and sin ( and yes, we do continue to sin because we continue t be human) are union in Christ judges us and we judge ourselves with full knowledge of our sins and we (should) repent.
Judgment for us in His Body and His Church is "ongoing" and via the HS withing Us all.
IMO, we will not be judged upon our death because we judge "ourselves" ( not us but the HS in Us, that which is Christ in Us) while we live and we redeem ourselves in Christ.

No worries. I got that you were not responding to me.



But there COULD BE further judgement:
Hebrews 10:26,27: "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

To me, this says that once a person confesses to believing in Christ and is baptized by Spirit, sins are washed clean, thus they are already judged per John 3:18. However, AFTER that, if one continues to sin deliberately, then that person should expect further judgement. In other words, a "once saved, always saved" sort of thing isn't really true.