xjwsforChrist

Well that is what happened in reality, I'm afraid.

Loz x

_________________
"This is my son. LISTEN to Him!"

Sab said...
That said, I wish the RCC would have been more honest with their members. Clearly, their theology borrows from it's neighboring nations and I wish they would have found a way to teach that to their members outright. I don't call it plagiarizing, I call it esoteric collaboration. I believe in universalism and so does the RCC.


Universalism:
The theological doctrine that eventually all people will be saved.


Had the RCC been honest in teaching people that CHRIST was truly the ONLY Way, Truth and Life...That HE was Love, that the Holy Spirit would teach them all truth ...
That they could have gone to Him, instead of insisting they were the route to salvation..They might have a little less blood guilt on their hands.

If the RCC believes and teaches universalism, then why is the hellfire doctrine taught and its fear instilled in its people??...If all are eventually saved, no one goes to the lake of fire??

Is this the reason why every funeral I go to they always have them in heaven no matter who or what they did? Or is it, they don't wanna be honest possibly and tell anyone that they might be going to a much worse place???

I don't think the RCC teaches universalism the way I understand the definition of it.

Just a thought
love Justmom

When the bibles first started getting TRANSLATED, lots of stuff was incorrectly translated.
The RCC commissioned the largest printing of bibles from the Guttenberg presses when the latin and greek bible was finally translated into english.
ex:
Catholics and the Bible
The Catholic Church finally agreed on which writings should go into the Bible at the Council of Rome in 382 AD during the time of Pope Damasus.
Damasus encouraged St Jerome to translate the Scriptures into Latin since Latin was the common language of all educated people.
In the mid-1400s the Bible started to be translated into European languages
Some Reformers published Bibles with bits missing, faulty translation work and subversive notes
The authorities tried to regulate which Bibles were acceptable in order to control erroneous teaching
Throughout the years the Catholic Church encouraged Bible reading, but kept control of the interpretation of the Bible as part of her inspired authority to teach the truth and preserve the unity of the church
Pope Leo XIII published a letter in 1893 encouraging Bible study.
Pius XII in 1943 also encouraged the faithful to study and love the Bible
The second Vatican Council in the 1960s encouraged all the clergy and people to study the Bible faithfully

Even Luther lamented:
"any milkmaid who could read" would found a new Christian denomination based on his or her "interpretation" of the Bible.

And:


Personally I think there was a bit of control in there too (understatement) BUT that "everyone and their brother" decided to interpret the bible the moment it became available is quite true.

Catholic univeralisim is that ALL people have the chance to be saved, salvation is available for ALL not just the "elect" ( as opposed to Calvinisim that says that God has already predestined who is saved before they are even born).
Catholic believe that ALL people will have the chance to repent ( of course not all will) and I don't think that any catholic will make that call on who is or isn't going to heaven since, only God can do that.
It makes sense that at a funeral it will be said that they are in heaven no matter what they did or who they are because, for all we know, they just might be.

I personally don't agree that those things should be said just for the comfort of the survivors, it should be made clear that the wages of sin is death and beyond that, it is in God's hands.

Paul says

Catholic univeralisim is that ALL people have the chance to be saved, salvation is available for ALL not just the "elect" ( as opposed to Calvinisim that says that God has already predestined who is saved before they are even born).
Catholic believe that ALL people will have the chance to repent ( of course not all will) and I don't think that any catholic will make that call on who is or isn't going to heaven since, only God can do that.
It makes sense that at a funeral it will be said that they are in heaven no matter what they did or who they are because, for all we know, they just might be.

I personally don't agree that those things should be said just for the comfort of the survivors, it should be made clear that the wages of sin is death and beyond that, it is in God's hands.


Thank you Paul....

Then catholic universalism is not the universalism understanding that was defined. It didn't say All people have the chance ( which I would agree) it said that ALL people will eventually BE saved.

You mentioned all have the chance to be saved not just the " elect". Who are the elect to you?
Because you then say you do not believe in Calvinism which teaches there are those that are predetermined. Are not the " elect " part of a chosen group predetermined?

Our lord says there are those that are predetermined and then there is those that are still an " elect" (predetermined) people but not numbered. The great crowd in Revelation ( not numbered but elect) and 144,000 ( predetermined elect)

Then tons more people saved as sheep because they although not being Christs brothers, do good to Him by doing good to His elect.
Then tons and tons more people are saved in the second resurrection when if they are written down in the Lambs book of life ( based on how they treated the elect while on earth) they are given a white robe as well and enter into the kingdom.

Jah gives way more opportunity through his love, patience, mercy and kindness to be part of his family than MAN through religion would ever imagine giving their fellowman.

Just a thought or two lol
Love Justmom

No, if the RCC would have been honest about the truth that Christ is in ALL religion (and always has been) then they would have peaceful relations instead of bloodshed. Do you honestly believe that Christ is not with non-Christians? Do you really believe they are on the outside looking in simply because they grew up in a non-Christian part of the world? Christ died for EVERYBODY. The reason why we preach Christianity is to help people with the concept of forgiveness. The entire population of humanity feels guilty for the sins of their fathers so they continue them. They need to be shown the truth that they are forgiven which will help them stop recommitting. They don't need to be told the BAD NEWS that they have to admit they are worthy of a painful execution and that they have to stop practicing their cultural faith. That's totalitarianism! FOR CHRIST'S SAKE!

-Sab

Quite honestly, justmom, all I have observed in Sab is a good and sincere heart and no spite or malice, which is not so in all cases here.

Of course I know he doesn't see the Catholic Church as I do! If he did, he'd be Catholic!

Don't think for one minute I require everyone to think or believe the same! I am used to atheists, pagans, Buddhists, Moslems,Hindus...I count them all among my friends. It is how someone expresses their point of view that counts.

I observe as well as posting.

In Britain, religious tolerance is very much the norm, and ecumenism and ecumenical gatherings very much the prevailing culture. So, that being so, why would I require everyone here to agree with me? That idea doesn't hold water, justmom. Equally, utterly foreign and new to me is the sort of prejudice and distortion of fact that some of you indulge in.

Whatever Sab's beliefs are are his own affair, and I have been reading his posts for long enough, here and elsewhere, to know that they're not the same as mine. How very extraordinary, justmom, that you should think that I require everyone to think the same!

It is how people treat other people, actions and behaviour more than words, which enables us to get to know each other on a forum.

Maybe there were/are those in the RCC who, like some in the WTBTS who "command" (under the guise of "persuading") others to not use any Bible except the NWT... although neither entity outright (now) say not to (peace to you all... and oh, Lordy, I hope I don't get all dirtied up again - LOLOLOL!)?

But here's the thing: in law, both civil AND the Law Covenant... silence is usually considered assent/consent. Surely, we shouldn't think that either organization has not receive inquiries/pleas as to this practice by their members (cajoling others into reading no other Bibles than those approved by them), which both claim to NOT require, as an organization? If so (and it is absolutely logical to assume so because we all KNOW it happens!), SURELY both should have PUBLISHED definitive instructions telling those who do such to NOT do so... not just in secret letters to the inner circle, but in their PUBLIC literature (which both have)?

And so, by DEFAULT, both ARE responsible for... and guilty as to... those WITHIN them who DO such cajoling... if they have NOT publicly stated that they should do so. I am unaware that either have, though. Indeed, comments here prove that.

I would LOVE to say, as many do, that parents aren't responsible for what their children do... but, well, look at the results of THAT. And that was NOT the requirement under the Law Covenant... which BOTH of these institutions try to hold their followers TO. If JAH and Christ take responsibility for THEIR children/sheep... surely, these should take responsibility for the "sheep" THEY lead... yes? Especially since THEY appoint/ordain the folks who "lead" among them... and often engage in such cajoling... right? I mean, if for no other reason (besides love FOR the sheep), because ALL claim to understand the greater responsibility that goes with that "double honor" they all want/call for themselves?

Dear ones, those of you who do... really gotta stop letting the false prophets and false christs weasel out of their responsibilities. Because in doing so, you ENABLE them... and so must carry SOME of the responsibility for what THEY do. Love, though, doesn't compromise truth. There IS no love... where there isn't truth. How do we KNOW? Because we KNOW... GOD... is love, right? Yet, falsehoods, lies, deceit, UNtruth originate NOT with the father of US... but the father OF the LIE.

If something is not TRUE, dear ones, then it can NOT have originated WITH the Truth (John 14:6)... and, therefore, could NOT have originated WITH... or come forth FROM... God, the FATHER of the Truth.

The problem is, again, that Israel has, once AGAIN... become a people who wants to have their ears TICKLED... rather than have them OPENED. Wants to believe in the lie. LOVING it, actually. If you want lies, though... even if you don't KNOW you do... then that is what you will RECEIVE. But you won't be receiving them (and thus hearing) from the HOLY ONE of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah). Not ONE. Because HE says:

"I have trustworthy things to say;
I open my lips to speak what is right.
My mouth speaks what is true,
for my lips detest wickedness.
All the words of my mouth are just;
none of them is crooked or perverse.
To the discerning (or HEARING) all of them are right;
they are upright to those who have found knowledge.
Choose my instruction instead of silver,
knowledge rather than choice gold,
for wisdom is more precious than rubies,
[b]and nothing you desire can compare with him[/b]." Proverbs 8:4-7


Actually, these very verses are a WONDERFUL example of a lie... by means of Bible tampering! Because they are speaking about CHRIST, the "Word" of God... who IS "Wisdom" (and the "Way," the "Light," the "Truth," the "Life", the "Word", the "Spirit", the... the... the...). Why is he personified as female? Because in GREEK the word for wisdom... "SOPHIA"... is feminine. And when the Greek was translated BACK to Hebrew, however, "wisdom" (sophia)... was MIStransliterated BACK as female. Why? Because wisdom is an [i]intuitive... and thus, "female"... quality[/i].

Even so, the rendering isn't inaccurate - JAH and Christ are both male AND female:

"Let us make man in OUR image; male AND female He made them."

Indeed, ALL spirit beings are male and female... as we WILL be (and some of us are NOW):

"At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven." Matthew 22:30

Beings that are COMPLETE... don't NEED another to complete them... which is the PURPOSE of marriage, dear ones:

"But for the MAN no suitable helper was found. So JaHVeH caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs and then closed up the place with flesh. Then JaHVeH made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

"The man said,

“This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called ‘woman,’
for she was taken out of man.”

So BEFORE Eve was taken OUT of him... Adham was COMPLETE... within himself. The woman WAS him, but was separated OUT so that he was not BY himself as a species.

"That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh."

They BECOME... what they WERE... BEFORE. And when the two come together NOW... they make a completely NEW "man."

You gotta ask yourselves, dear ones: "Do I REALLY want to hear? Or... do I really only want to hear what I want to hear?"

Because you will hear... what you WANT to... and not hear that which you DON'T. Thus, if you WANT to hear Christ's voice... you WILL. And if you really DON'T... but want to hear the voice of strangers (John 10:1-5)... THAT... is what you will hear!

The MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies, does NOT withhold form us what we ASK for... NOT necessarily with our LIPS... but with our HEARTS! THAT is why we must GUARD... our hearts!

I hope this helps, truly, and again, bid you ALL peace!

Your servant and a slave of Christ,

Shellama

I didn't know you were brought up Catholic, Loz. Somehow I thought you told me you were brought up Anglican...though of course the Anglican Church is considered to be part of the universal Catholic Church, even though in part it has deviated considerably from the rest of the Catholic Church.

The Bible not allowed to be translated into English...or French or German or any vernacular language?! Poppycock! Utter codswallop. That is an example of the kind of anti-Catholic propaganda put about by some extreme Protestant groups. It just simply isn't true. It's not what happened.

From the earliest times, there have always been translations into English. (I'm addressing the case of English because England is the country whose history I know very well, but of course the same is true everywhere.) the very earliest example is a translation of the Book of Genesis that dates back to 670 AD. In a few cases some Bibles were burned, but those were versions that were mistranslated, and where false interpretations were insinuated into the text.


The Old Testament and the New taught to those who were uneducated and unable to read most diligently by the priests. Evidence of this can be seen in things like the Mediaeval Mystery plays.

Given the amount of twisting and corruption of translation that has been the case in some translations of the Bible, it's very easy to understand that the Church would be wary of people in general coming upon that kind of mistranslation. I mean, good heavens! They might encounter something like the New World Translation, which so very sadly many Witnesses believe even now is the only accurate translation. Seriously! This is so! Even I know some who not only believe that but preach and teach it to those they meet!

What the Catholic Church actually did was to ensure that the original meaning of the text was not adulterated. The result of what happens when people unskilled in language and trusting their own faulty interpretations can be seen, very sadly, here on this forum.

Many Catholics were taught from childhood much of the Latin language, as I was, and so while it may feel foreign to you it did not to very many, the majority of Catholics. In addition, just as now, 30% of a Catholic Mass always included, and does now, consist of excerpts from the Old and New Testaments and the Psalms. That is not exactly the case in all Protestant churches, and is not even the case in a KH,where, although so much seems to be Bible-based, it is distorted and often consists of snippets here and there, with false meanings being drawn from them, and much of it propaganda at that.

Anti-Catholic propaganda is everywhere. Don't believe all you hear. Catholics absolutely love their Bible and treat it with respect and reverence for the Word of God. They wouldn't dream of scribbling in its margins as Jehovah's Witnesses do, and as they tried to make me do. "It's just a book"' they said, horrifyingly.

That fact spoke volumes, as does so much on here. I do not mean your post about translation, Loz. I believe you made an honest mistake from what you had heard.

Another nice try, Shelby, but no, your assumptions are wrong, see my previous post in this thread, and thus invalid.

It remains to be seen whether this particular mistake will become firmly entrenched in your mind and will get trotted out again and again, even though I've pointed out that it is untrue.

What else is she to think, Char?

Justmom... perhaps THE most loving person on this forum; her only "fault" was in speaking against the RCC and what does not hold up in them, to Christ.

Before that... you thought she was loving. As soon as she spoke out on the RCC issue... then you called her judgmental, and arrogant, a cult follower, etc, ad nauseum.


Once again, I will state... that no one here who has professed Christ and hearing him in spirit has changed, or pretended to be someone who they were not from the very opening of this forum. We knew that you were in the RCC... and we did not discuss the RCC for that reason, out of concern for YOU and those others who were in the RCC. And we were all doing okay... ignoring the differences in regard to religion; and focusing solely upon Christ.

But the moment religion came into play, the divisiveness began as well. The focus shifted off Christ... and onto religion. Because that is what religion DOES. Gets people to look at IT... and away from Christ.

That is what happened on this forum. Should be a clear example, though I am aware that some will not see. But some will.


Peace,
tammy

Oh, Tammy, as to that it is all a matter of point of view and perspective.

No, actually, it is exactly what happened.

Smilie face or no smilie face. Which are really just another form of deceit.

I am tired that people who came to this board to share their faith in the Spirit, to share as they hear in the Spirit... to do so in a safe(r) manner than from the place we left... are now subject to the same attacks, and insults, and condemnations and judgments of them and their faith... first by Sab and now also by you.


If you do not agree with the purpose of this forum... if your purpose is to come here and fight those who want a safe place to share their faith without personal attacks and insults... then perhaps you should consider moving on. Because i am SURE that there are religious forums out there, and pro-catholic forums out there. This forum is NON-RELIGIOUS. If you bring a religious matter here... then expect that it will be treated to the same LIGHT and testing, that ALL are treated to... and that is Christ.


Peace,
tammy

Tammy, you are just spouting anti-organized religion propaganda. You can't generalize all of religion like that, it's logically impossible. Too broad a brush. Religion has been used malevolently, but it's not innately evil as you are portraying it. This forum IS a religion, you can't escape that truth.

Etymology of the word "religion":



-Sab

I was not brought up a Catholic at all. I attended both Welsh chapel and English Church of England as a child. The vicars and ministers in those faiths claimed authority on understanding the scriptures, which is what I referred to.

I did have family and friends who were RC, and you can deny it all you like, but I am speaking the truth. They weren't allowed to have their own bibles in English. Later in my life other Catholics and ex Catholics in my age group confirmed that the situation was the same for them. From my understanding even the masses were in Latin, I think until the late 50s, but I don't know the dates for that for certain. For the record, the Catholics I know nowadays quite openly admit that they don't read the bible at all.

I too learned Latin as a secondary subject in High (Grammar) School but that's irrelevant to this issue, and in those days the majority, who went to secondary schools, didn't get to study it anyway. And I didn't say that the bible wasn't allowed to be translated, I said that Catholic families I knew of weren't allowed to own a copy in English.

Loz x

_________________
"This is my son. LISTEN to Him!"