xjwsforChrist

I was pondering this over the weekend. WT says that the 24 elders must be the 144,000 since the 24 elders sing a new song (Rev 5:8,9) and the 144,000 also sing a new song. (Rev 14:3) They also say the number 24 is explained because the 12 tribes of Israel had two assignments per tribe per year for something or other (I don't recall), so that give 24 DIVISIONS, thus the 24 elders somehow represents these 24 divisions (apparently of 6000 each).

However, I don't believe the 24 elders are the 144,000 based on the same verse as WT uses to say they are.

Rev 14:3: And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth. (NWT)

How could the 144,000 be the ones singing before the elders (presumably the 24 elders here) if the 24 elders ARE the 144,000? Thus, I ask, who are these 24 elders?

I had the privilege of sharing the following with some others many years ago, dear LQ (peace to you, dear one):



I saw (and my spirit identified) them in the order they "sat" from my left and going around to my right.

I hope this helps and, again, peace to you!

Your servant and a slave of Christ,

Shellama

Oh, thank you for sharing that, Shelby!!

Especially this part (at least in light of other conversations I have had today, so that this comes at a perfect moment for me):



Peace to you!

tammy

Wonderful!!!

Thank you
Justmom

Eeeeh,...............uhm..................................


How to ask this delicately.........



Are you claiming to have been transfigured and visited the Most holy?

Most certainly not the answer I expected, to be sure. (Yes, I asked Christ first, but probably didn't wait long enough for a reply or just didn't hear, so posted here.)

Wayward Son, Shelby has claimed to have had, shall we say, unique experiences. Whether you believe them or not is up to you. Consider this, though: Ezekiel had supernatural visions. John was carried away by the spirit to the Lord's day. Daniel had many visions. We usually don't question those simply because they were recorded. Yet, who recorded them? Was it not the ones who had the visions themselves? Was there anyone else to corroborate them? Not really. We simply have to accept on faith. Does it not strike you as odd that no one has had visions in the last ~2000 years? I think it's more likely that there are many that have had visions or have been taken away by the spirit to see wonderful things. Just because we don't experience that ourselves doesn't mean they don't happen.

Am I saying that Shelby has actually had visions? Actually, I am saying that it is possible, and the only way to corroborate it is really to hear if from Christ himself. Unfortunately, I am not one who yet hears his voice, so I cannot be the one to corroborate it. This *thought* just popped into my mind, though: "faith follows the thing heard". I had to look up the rest: "In turn, the thing heard was the word about the Christ." Take this for whatever you feel it's worth.

This is my understanding too, though I am not sure why David is there and not Solomon...maybe its because I am not a big fan of David's...

No need to be delicate, dear WS (mornin' and peace to you!), not at all. Not about things like this, ever. I have been taken by my Lord (no other "Way" to actually get in, dear one) into the MOST Holy, a couple/few times, yes, as well as many other places:

The HOLY (which I saw a myriad with "flames" above their heads and those flames all combining to be the Light/energy that is my Lord);

The wilderness at Sinai (where I saw, heard, and smelled the procession, as well as saw the pillar of "fire" that is my Lord that followed them);

Upon a high hill overlooking Jerusalem where I saw that "fire" leave the temple and enter into my Lord;

The upper room at Pentcost, where I saw that same "fire" above the heads of more than 30 but less than 60 people;

The road outside Jerusalem where I saw Philip approach and speak with the Ethiopian eunuch;

Inside the fiery furnace where Daniel, Hananiah, Azariah, and Mishael were with the spirit being sent to them;

Mt. Sinai, both when JAH came down to speak to Moses and when the stones were written on by JAH;

Recently, the camp in the wilderness at Sinai and all the way into the MOST Holy of the tabernacle, standing right before it, actually, while I watched what happened to the 12 stones on Aaron's breastplate;

The creation of the physical universe, when JAH said "Let light come to be" (although, not exactly that but that, in essence - the language was not words but a kind of superadvanced "math", although even our most advanced physics is primitive to the language I heard);

and much, much more. It's how I understand a lot of what I share: he not only tells me but shows me. Some of the most memorable visions are:

Those were I was permitted to see what spirit beings look like, especially Christ (they are ALL seraphs, "fiery flying flesh-eating serpents"... or "dragons"... which are NOT snakes!)... and particularly my Lord, whose appearance is NOT very easy on the eyes at ALL (I almost had a heart attack the first time he showed me);

The Ark and the battle between Michael and Beli'Jah'El, the two cherubs (angels) OF the Ark... or "arkangels"... resulting in one being cast off, then the "cover" being flung off... to turn into a "Lamb" at the right hand of JAH... and the Ark overturning resulting in the the throwing down of the seed... out of the spirit realm into the physical realm... and the attempts of the "dragon" to devour the seed trying to return to the ark (some "ran" from the dragon, some tried to hide, some were devoured... but some did make it back, where it was "fertilized" by a "cloud"...);

And Sheol/Hades (which I posted about last evening).

I have had the privilege of being told and shown a GREAT many things. NOT because I am something or special, please know. Only because I don't run away, even when I'm terrified (which I have been on a couple/few occasions). While fear makes me WANT to run/hide/close my eyes, etc., faith... in my Lord's voice that tells me NOT to fear but to "stand fast"... keeps me there. Since I'm there, no point in closing my eyes, right?

I hope this helps, dear one!

Again, peace to you!

Your servant and a slave of Christ,

Shellama

Because although a sinner, David never left JAH, dear P (mornin', brother, and peace to you!). Solomon, on the other hand, although not a sinner like his father, literally did.

Peace!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama

(((Leaving)))

I had to smile (and am still doing so) when I read this. You must know what some of us are going to say about this thought 'popping' into your mind : )

Very often, when my Lord speaks to me and reminds me of things... this is what it feels like. Certainly, before I realized that this was Him, I would have described Him in exactly the way that you just did.

Peace and love to you!!

tammy

Yes!!!

Ditto Leaving.

This is how it starts. Then when we put faith in the thing heard, that voice becomes louder and clearer!

(( smiling as well))

Thanks for sharing
Justmom

Fair enough but 300 foreskins !!
Sheesh !

Hello, I am directed to share with you Joel's prophecy...

Joel 2:28 "And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will [b]see visions.

Joel 2:29 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days.


[/b]
So he can use us in many different ways if we allow ourselves to put faith first in the fact that he CAN and DOES do this.

Just wanted to share this
Love Justmom

Regarding dear LQ's (peace!) comment as to hearing "faith follows the thing heard" and then looking up, "In turn, the thing heard was the word about the Christ" (peace to you ALL!), I want to share with you something that MIGHT help you "see" what this verse is REALLY saying in a [much] better... Light (smile). Per the GREEK, the ACTUAL rendering of the verse is:

"So, faith BY... HEARING. And HEARING... THROUGH/BY MEANS OF... THE VOICE (that speaks) OF GOD."

Wait... what??! Yep, that is what the actual transliteration is.

So, does God HAVE a voice... and speak? And NOW?? Yes, dear ones, He does... and does... and yes, now. As the writer to the Hebrews told us:

"Be careful that you do not refuse to listen to the One who is speaking. For if the people of Israel did not escape when they refused to listen to Moses, the earthly messenger, we will certainly not escape if we reject the One who speaks to us from heaven!" Hebrews 12:25

Wait... SPEAKS to us?? Doesn't that verse say He "has SPOKEN to us"?? No. It does not. The Greek word here that many erroneously mistransliterate as "spoken" is laleō (Strong's G2980), which means:

1) to utter a voice or emit a sound

2) to speak

a) to use the tongue or the faculty of speech

b) to utter articulate sounds

3) to talk

4) to utter, tell

5) to use words in order to declare one's mind and disclose one's thoughts

a) to speak


But WAIT... HOW does He speak? That same writer told us that, as well:

"In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days He SPEAKS to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe." Hebrews 1:1, 2

Okay but... wait! Where did "they" get "spoken" from, then?

They got it, dear ones, from their OWN understanding! Because THEY don't hear God speak (through Christ, His Son), they ASSUME that the writer meant back when Christ was with those (the writer and the Hebrews) IN THE FLESH! That he SPOKE to them THEN... but not NOW (NOW, they had the recordings of what he said when he spoke back then). They didn't/don't know, dear ones, because they don't know the One who "speaks from the heavens."

Okay, but wait... does that mean Christ speaks to us from the sky ??! ('Cause ya'll know MANY think that that is what THAT means, right? That the "heavens" always means the "sky"... versus the spirit realm?)

No, dear ones - he does not speak to us from the sky... at least, not most times. Remember, HE said:

"The kingdom... IS INSIDE YOU."

And...

"... we will come and make our abode WITH you." John 14:23

And, per Paul...

"If God... and Christ... dwell IN you." Romans 8:9, 10


So... I hope this helps. Any who might be thirsting and wishing. May such ones be given ears, if they TRULY wish to hear, when the Spirit and his Bride say to THEM... if not from a place in the spirit realm that is OUTSIDE of them... and outside of THIS (the physical) world, then perhaps from the kingdom of God that is WITHIN them, :

"Come! Take 'life's water'... the holy spirit of God, the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies, which "water", holy spirit, is HIS blood, breath, and seed... by means of which ALL who belong to Him, He the God OF THE LIVING... LIVE... and which water is poured out from the innermost parts of His Son and Christ, the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah)... FREE!"

Your servant and a slave of Christ,

Shellama

As soon as I read that, I did not think that could be the accurate translation. Thank you for all that info, Shelby. It's an exciting and uplifting thread - thanks to everyone.



Thanks for this info Tammy; this happens all the time.