xjwsforChrist

On that, you may have a case at least to argue, Paul, but in that respect, I am just not sure. Amongst the people I know, there seems to be no difficulty at all, and that includes a very much wider variety of belief than just Roman Catholics. My own friends and relatives include a very broad spectrum of Christian belief , from Bible chapel Welsh Methodists to Greek and Armenian Orthodox ( as well as pagans, Muslims, Buddhists), and those are just the ones that come to mind. But, oddly enough, given the tenor of this forum, there is obviously a small group who profess belief in Christ and yet struggle to understand the Trinity.

From that evidence, I'm not sure the problem is widespread enough to warrant a redefinition, but perhaps you know differently? Widely dissenting groups such as this small one have always been coming up with somewhat wacky alternative belief systems, even back in the first very few centuries, which is not of course to say that this group warrants that epithet.

Just to show that Confusion is not ONLY found in the Trinity doctrine:
Tammy said:


Justmom said:


Shelby said:


Tammy had also said originally:


So...


See what I mean?

I'm not sure what the confusion is that you are seeing Paul. Certainly, I am no teacher (I could not even tutor math without confusing my 'student', lol), so perhaps I said something in a way that is confusing. But those quotes that you highlighted all look to be saying the same thing to me.

Peace,
tammy

Here is the thing Shel, to me the trinity doctrine helped me to understand Christ and Jahveh better, it helped me to understand the true uniqueness of God, the ONLY "other-centred loving being" in existence.
That Christ was God and emptied Himself means far more to me because of the understanding of that relationship.
I think the issue that is present here is the "person" of the HS.

If the HS is Christ then there is no Triune God and that is the argument and that is a valid one.

So, maybe that is what needs to be addressed and NOT the Trinity doctrine.

Really?
So is Christ the HS or is the HS:
"The grain"? ( noted as different than Father and Son in your analogy)
"The essence" that comes from Father and Son?
"The comforter" and "Helper" that is send By Christ?
"Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you." (John 16:7).

See what I mean?

Ummmm... I see us saying the same thing, dear P (peace, dear one!). I mean one of us may have listed "more", but I can't see where our comments conflict or confuse. Can you elaborate, as perhaps we can clarify? Because the LAST thing we wish to do is confuse anyone. Thanks!

Peace!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama

What I am trying to point out here is that BOTH views have difficulties.
And quite correctly because we are humans trying to fathom the infinite.

Amen my sister...
And wasn't Peter AND John considered " ordinary and unlettered?"
Acts 4:13

Justmom.

And why was that mentioned?
Because they preached as if they were "learned and lettered".
They, like Paul, were able to defend their views scripturally ( theologically).

Why was this mentioned?
Because they preached as if they were "learned and lettered".
They, like Paul, were able to defend their views scripturally ( theologically).

Because these learned from the master himself.
That's all,
Justmom

Christ is THE Holy Spirit... vs... holy spirit ( just started a sentence with holy spirit, and so capitalized the H, so that might account for the confusion)



holy spirit - comes from God, through Christ to all those Christ gives it to. Just as the Pharaoh gave Joseph the charge of the grain, to give to all who He chose to give that grain (life) TO.



holy spirit, again.



Christ, the Holy Spirit.



That is the only passage that seems confusing, imo, to this. Of everything written, that one is the only one. But... if you read the rest of that passage, Christ begins by speaking here in 3rd person... (he will come to you)... but then immediately changes to speaks in 1st person (I will come to you). Claiming that He will do all the things that this Helper will be sent to do.

So He does explain it in that very same passage.


Why do you suppose that the Spirit of Truth could not come until the Truth (in the flesh) went away?

Peace,
tammy

Indeed and then they set about preaching and their followers writing for the future generations.
Yet, they preached on "equal" ground with their "opponents", using their own "tools" against them, as Christ did.
That is why they were amazed at how learned they sounded.

So there is THE HS, which is Christ and the holy spirit which is given.
So, two holy spirits?

Not sure what you mean here Tammy...
John 16:
The Holy Spirit Promised

5 “But now I am going to Him who sent Me; and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’ 6 But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7 But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the [c]Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8 And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; 11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

12 “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

Not sure I understand this, dear one (peace!), unless you mean only other... besides Christ? In which case, okay, I can understand that. But that a doctrine helps us to understand something doesn't meant it's TRUE, though, does it? I mean, coming to know "Jehovah" helped me to understand that "God" had a name. Now, of course, the name "Jehovah" isn't accurate or true... so I can't put my faith in IT... but I CAN put my faith in the fact that "God" has a name. Coming to know that there were the "anointed"... was also something I learned that "helped" me understand the BODY of Christ; however, the teachings surrounding the "anointed" as I FIRST learned of them... was totally in error. So, I do understand what YOU'RE saying. I think you also understand what I am sharing, too, though...



But now see, this can be taken two ways, dear one, one of which is not accurate:

1. That Christ was the God in that HE was also the MOST Holy One of Israel... and that One, the MOST Holy One emptied HIMSELF out... which is an error. That is not what occurred.

OR...

2. That the HOLY One of Israel (and so just a LITTLE "less" that the MOST HOLY one)... Christ, the SON of God and so the One who came forth from WITHIN God, from the "womb" of the "woman" that is in God... God being COMPLETE... male AND female (Genesis 2:27)... and existing in SELF-love, so much so that a "son OF love" was PRODUCED... which SON, also "divine", being, as he was, of the SAME "substance" as the One he came forth FROM... emptied HIMSELF out, that Son...

which is what occurred, dear one.



I agree... because there is no third "person." There are two, who exist separately, yet in complete union, yes, but that union doesn't create yet another "person"... separate and distinct from the other TWO.



And that IS what Paul wrote, yes? That Christ "is the Spirit"? And that Lazarus wrote, that Christ said he was the Truth... and would send the spirit OF the Truth? The problem is the MIStransliteration of the Greek word ekeinos as "him"... rather than as "it", that latter of which is the ACCURATE transliteration. Why didn't those who chose, choose to call it a "she"? The word also means that, as well? They CHOSE what they did to foment their belief in a teaching that existed LONG before Christ appeared on the earth, one that had its roots in PRE-Christ triune godheads... of the NATIONS. Unfortunately, many have fallen victim to that VERY false teaching, even utterly ignoring what JAH Himself said about it through Moses: that He is ONE.



Perhaps, dear one. But if the trinity doctrine is RAISED... then what? But just to give it a try, here is the gist:

JAH, is the MOST Holy One of Israel... and the original dynamic energy source. THE "divine."
Christ, His SON... who came OUT of him... is made of that same "substance" - dynamic energy. The "divine." But a lesser amount. Because the FATHER... is the FULL "divine," with the Son being a PRODUCT of that source.
Through the energy ("Light") that was Christ, ALL things that were CREATED, starting with OTHER spirit beings... who are ALSO of the substance - dynamic energy, the "divine"... although a lesser "grade" than JAH or Christ. We, those who are the seed of the Woman... are ALSO of that same substance - the "divine"... or dynamic energy. That is SPIRIT.

That "spirit" is God's substance: His breath, His blood, His semen... ANYTHING that gives/grants/creates... LIFE. It is PURE energy... of a kind NOT found in THIS (physical) world. It is HIS spirit (life force/substance) and so since HE is holy... IT is holy. His breath is holy. His blood is holy. HIS semen... is holy. And so, anything "beget" by it... is holy.

Starting with His Son... the HOLY One... of Israel. At One point, JAH referred to Himself as the "HOLY One of Israel"... because the Son had not yet been glorified. Rather, that Son was going to EMPTY himself... and take a LOWLY form, that of a "slave" - man, spirit enslave to flesh, with ITS blood, not JAH's. When that Son DID that... then GAVE that life, the flesh... and RETURNED to offer up HIS blood as a "sacrifice"... he received the GLORY that was intended for him... to BE "God"... as God's SON and HEIR.

That Son, a SPIRIT... that emptied himself out and took a slave's (earthling man) form... then became the [HOLY] Spirit!
He did not become another person. JAH did not create/bring forth another person. He RECEIVED a GREATER "glory"... MORE light/energy... than he had BEFORE he came. Because he receive the FULLNESS of JAH's blood, breath, and semen... by means of now having JAH's glory AS HIS OWN! He INHERITED the kingdom... and ALL authority that comes WITH it.

And so, HE is "Joseph", the One who showed himself WORTHY to be GIVEN the kingdom... with authority over ALL of its BELONGINGS... except as to JAH Himself. But because he SHOWED that he would never USURP "Pharaoh's" (JAH's) position... he was GIVEN that, as well!

And all of this COULD be given him... and HE could give to others to share WITH him (versus ruling OVER them)... because of God's HOLY spirit: His blood, breath, and semen... by means of which HE (Christ) and THEY... are TRUE sons! NOT just by an adoption or fostering... but by NATURE: by blood (which comes FROM a father to a son)... breath (which father's breath flowed INTO Adham and comes OUT of a child when it first breaths)... and semen (which is the "begeting" WITH the Woman so as to PRODUCE their combined "seed").

JAH is a gardener, dear one. A cultivator. A sower... OF seed. HIS seed.

Which is His SPIRIT... or lifeforce, in the form of breath, blood, and/or semen. Holy SPIRIT.

His SON... is a "tree" (of Life) that HE sowed... and the members of the Son's BODY... are the "branches" IN that "tree". They are either NATURAL branches (by means of Abraham, through Isaac... because of God's spirit being IN Abraham)... or they are GRAFTED in... (by means of CHRIST... because of God's spirit being in CHRIST). Some of the FIRST group are DOUBLY branched: through Abraham AND through Christ. These... are the "holy" ones.

Christ... is the [Holy] Spirit, the GLORIFIED Son of God... who, by means of God's spirit... holy SPIRIT... or HIS blood... which courses in CHRIST... "begets" US. First, as sons... AND then as part of HIS wife/Bride... the "NEW" Jerusalem.

And ALL of this is done by two: the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies, who most call "God,"... He who is the ALmighty God... THROUGH His Son, the HOLY One of Israel and HOLY Spirit... JAHESHUA, the Chosen One OF JAH (MischaJah). Who is the MIGHTY, but not ALMighty, God.

There is not "third" person. There IS Michael, the remaining "angel of the ark," who is one spirit of God (AND Christ). But as HE said, we are NOT to worship or even revere HIM... because HE is our FELLOW slave of Christ. And both he and Christ said we are to WORSHIP... God (JAH).

As Christ said, then, "Why do you call me LORD... yet, do not do the things I SAY?"

While the people certainly had reverence for Joseph, and RIGHTLY so... and listened to him and went to him and learned what to do from him and followed him... HE would have NEVER let them worship him. HE... would have turned them to Pharaoh.

And THAT is why Christ IS Lord, why he was DEEMED worthy: because great and exalted though he IS... he would NEVER tell his followers to worship him... or some "third" spirit... but ONLY the MOST Holy One of Israel. THAT is why that MOST Holy One LOVES him: because while he excepted the glory given him... he did not let it got to head such that he raised himself ABOVE... or even EQUAL to... the One who GAVE it to him.

There is NO guile in Christ, dear P. None. Not one iota. And absolutely NO ambition, as the attempts by the Adversary to prove otherwise show. Indeed, that was the point OF the attempt: to show that our dear Lord WAS ambitious... and would sell HIS soul/spirit... for a rulership. He IS God's chosen one, however... BECAUSE of his true humility... by means of which he showed the Adversary to be a LIAR. He has no issue with his place, which is SECOND... but only to the MOST Holy One. Make no mistake, though: WE must go THROUGH him... because he IS the One SO placed and so to ignore HIM... would be to ignore the MOST Holy One Himself.

We must learn to listen to HIM, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the CHOSEN One of JAH (MischaJah), dear one... and him alone. And to obey. Particularly with regard to his position in relation to JAH's. Our eternal lives depend on listening to him... in EVERYTHING. Even this, as difficult as it might for the egos associated with OUR "nature"... to grasp it.

I hope this helps, truly, and as always, peace to you!

YOUR servant, sister, and fellow slave of Christ... ALWAYS and to time indefinite,

Shellama