xjwsforChrist

GLADIATOR SAID


As I recall the woman referred to is a great city that sits on many waters.

Spiritual, earthly, symbolic is anyone's guess - unless you have inside information.

LISA SAID

Yes Nambo,I was very young when I got baptized in may 1974. We expected the great trib to start in the fall of ´75 and soon we would all be in the New World Order. Haha, they don´t use that anymore,do they?

I too am looking forward to see the 2 witnesses come to guide us. I feel good being alone with our Lord but also I have so many questions that only ex JW´s will understand. It´s so good to have a place now where I can ask these questions.
BTW I sent you a PM

peace,

Lisa

JUSTMOM SAID

Hello

Aguest would the women at Revelation 14:4 "These are the ones that did not defile themselves with women; in fact they are virgins......

would they be the "Oholah" and "Oholibah" and for me personally coming out of the Oholibah??

thanks
justmom

AGUEST SAID

Greetings, all... and peace to you! Sorry I had to run off - family emergency! All is well, though, so I'd like to finish what I started here (SA winks at dear Glad and 'Mom - peace to you, both!). Here is what was revealed to and shared with me as to this matter by my Lord, the Holy One of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah):

The "women" mentioned at Revelation 14:4 are harlots. We can know this because those mentioned didn't "defile" themselves with "women." If they weren't harlots... then they would be wives... and no defilement would take place in such an instance. Some take the verse to mean that these didn't have ANY relations with women... which is not true: marriage was not only allowed, but encouraged. No one was/is REQUIRED to be a "eunuch." And marriage wasn't forbidden; even some of the apostles were married (and so, why would Christ have a more lax requirement for THEM... than for those who came after them? He would not).

So, the only "women" that these mentioned COULD "defile" themselves with... would be "women" that were NOT wives: i.e., adulteresses/fornicatrixes... or harlots. Are there women who are spoken of as BEING "harlots"? Yep. The "daughters" of Babylon the Great.

Wait, you might say, WHAT "daughters"? Well, for biblical (and most other purposes) harlots are women (vs. men)... and Babylon the Great... is the "MOTHER of the harlots." Revelation 17:5 Hence, she has children... and such are harlots... and thus, women... and so... daughters. And since her "daughters" are harlots, THEY "commit adultery/fornication" just like SHE "commits adultery/fornication."

So, who are "they", those daughters... "women"? In order to know that, one must first know who the mother of these, Babylon the GREAT is. Contrary to the WTBTS' (and perhaps others') false teaching on this, she is NOT "the world empire of false religion." How do we know? Because... she CAN'T be! Why? Because... she is a HARLOT... by means of being an ADULTRESS. In order to be adultress... she has to be a WIFE. Yes? Or at least a fiancee.

And she IS... the latter.

Babylon the Great are those who claim to be "anointed"... and thus BETROTHED/MARRIED to Christ... but yet commit fornication/adultery with the kings of the earth! She is NO ONE else, by reason of no one else making such a claim... and committing such acts. Therefore, she CANNOT be the Jews (for they make to claim to being betrothed/married to Christ). She cannot be Muslims... or Hindus... or Shinto-ist... or Taoists... or any OTHER religion... because none of these CLAIM to be the "BRIDE" of Christ. She also cannot constitute the Jews because she is completely burned with fire; ALL of Israel, including the 2-tribe kingdom of Judah... and thus, the JEWS... WILL be saved! Except perhaps the "scribes and Pharisees"... and false priests... who also claimed such a union.

So while she originally was these (false scribes, etc.), from the outpouring of holy spirit at Pentecost 30 CE... she became those so-called "CHRISTIANS"... who CLAIM a UNION with Christ... but PROFANE that union... by means of their FORNICATION AND ADULTERY... with other "husbands", the "kings of the earth," whose "laws" she follows... thus, ignoring and overstepping the law of the one she CLAIMS is her husband.

She SAYS she "sit a queen"... because her husband is a KING! However, she has DEFILED her marriage with GOD's king... the Holy One of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH... by fornicating with OTHER kings (of the earth). She follows THEIR laws... and as a result, is instrumental in putting to death the prophets and holy ones!

Is she the Catholic Church? Not entirely. "She" is responsible for the establishment of the Catholic Church... which was "born" of her adultery and fornication! It is one of her "daughters"! As are ALL of the so-called "christian" religions that have been "born" from her, the product of her fornication!

Babylon the Great is the "false empire"... of "christianity"... as such was and is established by those claiming to be in union with and as a result the Bride... of Christ. Her "daughters" are the harlotous religions that have sprang from her dalliances with kings, governments, politicians, etc., which have led her to compromise her VIRTUE and INTEGRITY... for the sake of riches! Revelation 17:4

Not only did she and does her daughters, the religions that sprang from such harlotous dalliances, commit adultery and fornication... but murder. Because on THEIR heads... is the blood of the prophets and holy ones.

And for this reason... her own lovers will turn on her, because the Most Holy One of Israel puts it in their minds and hearts to DO so... and completely burn her. With fire. Meaning... utter destruction. There will be NO resurrection for her.

A woman can only commit adultery and fornication against her husband... or the man she is promised in marriage TO. That is why Paul said, to the Corinthians:

"For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present [you as] a chaste virgin to Christ." 2 Corinthians 11:2

So, who are the "women" that those who "did not defile themselves with" mentioned at Revelation 14:4? They are the "daughters" of Babylon... her harlotous children: the so-called "christian" religions that are born from those who PROFESS a union with Christ... but profane that union... by means of their adulterous relations with other "kings"... and "husbands"... others whose "laws" they follow... rather than remaining TRUE... and CHASTE... to the husbandly owner they CLAIM... the Holy One of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH... and HIS king.

I hope this helps, truly. Because it does NOT mean that those at Revelation never married or had relations with human women. It does not even mean they're men. It means... that once [spiritual] virgins... they did not "defile" themselves... by committing SPIRITUAL "fornication"... but remained true to their husbandly owner, Christ.

These are from among the sons of Israel... from each tribe, except Dan. They have been washed... and cleansed... in the blood of the Lamb... and so are RESTORED to purity and virginity... so that they may come before their husband in marriage... as chaste virgins. Forsaking ALL others.

I hope this helps, truly, and again, I wish you ALL peace!

Servant to the Household of God, Israel, and a slave of Christ,

SA

NAMBO SAID




As I said, an interpretation needs to fulfill all the scriptures appertaining to the identity of BTG, so, can you explain when these false and unfaithful anointed Christians killed any of the Prophets of the Old Testament.

Can you show how they are so important to the worlds financial system that when the Beast turns on them, wold commerce will end.

Can you give examples of how these anointed ones are at present controlling world governments.

Can you demonstrate how they have deceived the world.

What wars have they been behind?

What are the 7 mountains they sit on?

How are they a "City"?

Thank you.

CRIMINY SAID



Nambo, I appreciate your post. I remember reading your point of view on JWN some time ago and was intrigued. The modern day financial systems do seem to fit many of the details of the prophesy. But so do the modern day institutions of religion. It's not difficult to check off each one of the points you made above:

- The prophecy did not say world commerce would end. It says the merchants would mourn her loss.

- Religion DOES ride the backs of government. Maybe less today than in the past, but it's still there. Religion is a hot topic in the current presidential campaign. Look at the constant abortion battles in the US and legislation to execute gays in Uganda. What is the Holy See doing at the UN? Just a few of many, many available examples.

- "Can you demonstrate how they have deceived the world." With all due respect, Nambo, please tell me that was a typo.

AGUEST, I need to reread your post a couple more times and look up the references to freshen my brain on this, but with far more detail, you came up with the same modifications to the WT interpretation that I did - if I understood your post correctly.

I suppose I have painted with a broad stroke in determining ALL institutions of religion as falling under the description of BtG. That the prophesy was speaking about a harlotry against the Christ, thus Christian institutions of religion, makes more sense.

That still brings me down to the little church on the corner with a few happy-looking people gathered out in the shaded yard after the service every Sunday. I work with one of the ladies who attends there and she speaks highly of it. I can set aside that they probably believe in the Trinity. I don't. I can set aside any number of other doctrinal difference we may have for the sake of not dividing the Christ and just enjoy the warm Christian fellowship.

But that pesky BtG thing keeps nagging at me.

CRIMINY SAID



My goodness, why? You laid out a very rational, plausible interpretation of a bible prophesy. You've obviously given it a lot of consideration and it's not difficult to detect the passion you have.

I would hope it takes a REAL crime to get banned here, not just deeply held beliefs.

PSACRAMENTO SAID

I agree with Shel, it is my understanding that "babylon the great" is the 'group" or "congregation" is you will, of all those that CLAIM to be Christian BUT blasphemy the HS, hence their sin is unforgivable and they are destroyed forever.

It is NOT the RCC per say, but some of them IN it, as it is some in the other denominations.
Those that put themselves about Christ while disguising themselves as "servants" of Our Lord.
They are the "sheep in wolves clothing" the false Messiah's that claim salvation in THEM and THEIR "church" as opposed to salvation in Christ.

NAMBO SAID

Criminy wrote:



Thank you Criminy, however I think it does say world commerce will end more than just the merchants will mourn her loss, Revelation 18

11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,

13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.

14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.

And BTG doesnt just "ride" the back of the Beast, it controls it, it rules it, Revelation 17

18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

AGUEST SAID

Greetings, dear Nambo... and peace to you!


Absolutely, dear one! One only need look at Christ's words to the "christians" of the OT. Who would that be? Israel, God's CHOSEN (and thus "christian" as the word "christian" MEANS "chosen persons") people, and particularly the Jews:

“Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU build the graves of the prophets and decorate the memorial tombs of the righteous ones, and YOU say, ‘If we were in the days of our forefathers, we would not be sharers with them in the blood of the prophets.’ Therefore YOU are bearing witness against yourselves that YOU are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Well, then, fill up the measure of YOUR forefathers." Matthew 23:29-32

The first, here, are the Jews... with the second, their forefathers... being both Jews and Samaritans (Israel).

“Serpents, offspring of vipers, how are YOU to flee from the judgment of Ge·hen´na? For this reason, here I am sending forth to YOU prophets and wise men and public instructors. Some of them YOU will kill and impale, and some of them YOU will scourge in YOUR synagogues and persecute from city to city; that there may come upon YOU all the righteous blood spilled on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zech·a·ri´ah son of Bar·a·chi´ah, whom YOU murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly I say to YOU, All these things will come upon this generation." Matthew 23:33-36

“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her..." Matthew 23:37



I don't know as to it ending, but it will certainly be greatly affected, yes:

"And the ten horns that you saw, and the wild beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her devastated and naked, and will eat up her fleshy parts and will completely burn her with fire." Revelation 17:16

"... because of the wine of the anger of her fornication all the nations have fallen [victim], and the kings of the earth committed fornication with her, and the traveling merchants of the earth became rich due to the power of her shameless luxury.” Revelation 18:3

“And the kings of the earth]/u] who committed fornication with her and [u]lived in shameless luxury will weep and beat themselves in grief over her, when they look at the smoke from the burning of her, while they stand at a distance because of their fear of her torment and say, ‘Too bad, too bad, you great city, Babylon you strong city, because in one hour your judgment has arrived!’

“Also, the traveling merchants of the earth are weeping and mourning over her, because there is no one to buy their full stock anymore, a full stock of gold and silver and precious stone and pearls and fine linen and purple and silk and scarlet; and everything in scented wood and every sort of ivory object and every sort of object out of most precious wood and of copper and of iron and of marble; also cinnamon and Indian spice and incense and perfumed oil and frankincense and wine and olive oil and fine flour and wheat and cattle and sheep, and horses and coaches and slaves and human souls. Yes, the fine fruit that your soul desired has departed from you, and all the dainty things and the gorgeous things have perished from you, and never again will people find them."

“The traveling merchants of these things, who became rich from her, will stand at a distance because of [their] fear of her torment and will weep and mourn, saying, ‘Too bad, too bad—the great city, clothed with fine linen and purple and scarlet, and richly adorned with gold ornament and precious stone and pearl, because in one hour such great riches have been devastated!’

“And every ship captain and every man that voyages anywhere, and sailors and all those who make a living by the sea, stood at a distance and cried out as they looked at the smoke from the burning of her and said, ‘What city is like the great city?’ And they threw dust upon their heads and cried out, weeping and mourning, and said, ‘Too bad, too bad—the great city, in which all those having boats at sea became rich by reason of her costliness, because in one hour she has been devastated!’ Revelation 18:9-19


Let me ask you: who historically put(s) kings into position? Was/is it not religious leaders? Who anointed Saul? David? Was it not Samuel, a prophet... AND priest? Who put European kings into place? Was it not the Church? Who controls the people in Muslim countries? The king... or the Ayatollahs, etc.? Who do Presidents of the U.S. consult with? It is not their religious leaders, most notably, Billy Graham? (See, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Grah ... residents; http://kdvr.com/2012/08/12/slideshow-th ... residents/)

What about their inaugurations? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayers_at ... ugurations

What about the lobbying and political support done by her? For whose interests?



I'm sorry, but I'm not clear as to who you mean by "they". These "women"/daughters? If so, then in the same way as their "mother":

"... she has become a dwelling place of demons and a lurking place of every unclean exhalation and a lurking place of every unclean and hated bird! ... in her heart she keeps saying, ‘[i]I sit a queen,[/i] and I am no widow, and I shall never see mourning.’ Revelation 18:2, 7

Like their mother, these "women" do not truthfully reveal the first... and the second are LIES. Thus, deceptions, both.



I am not sure they need to have literally been behind wars, per se, dear one... but only to have fomented, supported, justified, and validated them... particularly those against the holy ones. And they have... and so. Believe me when I say, if so-called "christian" leaders uniformly and unanimously denounced war... many would not participate in them.



She, BTG, sits on 7 mountains, dear one, and thus, by means of their "familial" relationship to HER, these do as well. Those seven mountains are actually seven "kings"... five of which had fallen by the time John received the Revelation, one that existed at the time, and one that was yet to come. At this time, I have only had the identity of the latter two revealed to me: the early "church" that later became the RCC ("one that is")... and the WTBTS (one that had not yet come but when "he" did, would remain only a short while - and compared to the others, the WTBTS will only have a short life), respectively.



Their "mother" is a harlotous city (see verses set out above, as well as:

"And the woman whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.” Revelation 17:18)

A "woman" can only beget others like her (men/women), dear one, not something else entirely. Thus, her "daughters", these "women"... would be "cities" too. But that shouldn't be too much of a surprise as the true CHASTE Bride of Christ... is ALSO a "city":

"... they advanced over the breadth of the earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city." Revelation 20:9

"I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." Revelation 21:2

"And there came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls which were full of the seven last plagues, and he spoke with me and said: “Come here, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” So he carried me away in [the power of the] spirit to a great and lofty mountain, and he showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God and having the glory of God. Its radiance was like a most precious stone, as a jasper stone shining crystal-clear. It had a great and lofty wall and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names were inscribed which are those of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel. On the east were three gates, and on the north three gates, and on the south three gates, and on the west three gates. The wall of the city also had twelve foundation stones, and on them the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb."

"Now the one who was speaking with me was holding as a measure a golden reed, that he might measure the city and its gates and its wall. And the city lies foursquare, and its length is as great as its breadth. And he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs; its length and breadth and height are equal. Also, he measured its wall, one hundred and forty-four cubits, according to a man’s measure, at the same time an angel’s. Now the structure of its wall was jasper, and the city was pure gold like clear glass. The foundations of the city’s wall were adorned with every sort of precious stone: the first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chal·ced´o·ny, the fourth emerald, the fifth sar´do·nyx, the sixth sardius, the seventh chrys´o·lite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrys´o·prase, the eleventh hyacinth, the twelfth amethyst. Also, the twelve gates were twelve pearls; each one of the gates was made of one pearl. And the broad way of the city was pure gold, as transparent glass." Revelation 21:9-21



You are QUITE welcome and I hope this helps. I will certain return and post what the other five mountains/kings are, should my Lord tell me of those. I've no doubt he will; however, I cannot say when. It could be soon... or not. All in HIS due and proper time. (Matthew 25:45)

Again, peace to you!
_________________
Paz a todos!

Su sirviente, compañera de estudios, y un esclava de Cristo,

SA

CRIMINY SAID




Hey Shelby, I was going over this post of yours in preparation to have a conversation on the topic with a friend. Dissecting your words carefully, which apparently I did not do the first go-round, it sounds like the Watchtower Society is, in fact, NOT part of this BtG. They are definitely part of false religion but not based on an adultery with the Kings of the earth.
_________________
I could'a been a bug.

VANDERHOVEN7 SAID


S. L. Busby rightly identifies JERUSALEM as Mystery Babylon the Great

Busby writes:

1) The only references to "great city" in the Greek are in the Revelation. The first reference definitely refers to Jerusalem "where their Lord was crucified."

Revelation 11:8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great <3173> city <4172> which is allegorically called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.

Check out the others.

Revelation 16:19 The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered great Babylon, to make her drain the cup of the fury of his wrath.

Revelation 17:18 And the woman that you saw is the great city which has dominion over the kings of the earth."

Revelation 18:10 they will stand far off, in fear of her torment, and say, "Alas! alas! thou great city, thou mighty city, Babylon! In one hour has thy judgment come." 16 "Alas, alas, for the great city that was clothed in fine linen, in purple and scarlet, bedecked with gold, with jewels, and with pearls! 18 and cried out as they saw the smoke of her burning, "What city was like the great city?" 19 And they threw dust on their heads, as they wept and mourned, crying out, "Alas, alas, for the great city where all who had ships at sea grew rich by her wealth! In one hour she has been laid waste. 21 Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, "So shall Babylon the great city be thrown down with violence, and shall be found no more;



2) Jerusalem is guilty of all of the blood of the righteous, saints, and prophets...

Matthew 23:34 Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, 35 that upon you may come ALL the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechari'ah the son of Barachi'ah [A to Z], whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Truly, I say to you, all this will come upon this generation. 37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! 38 Behold, your house is forsaken and desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'" (see also Luke 11:49-51)

while it is Babylon who is found drunk with the blood of the saints, prophets, and all slain upon the earth.

Revelation 17:5 and on her forehead was written a name of mystery: "Babylon the great, mother of harlots and of earth's abominations." 6 And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. When I saw her I marveled greatly.

Revelation 18:21 Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, "So shall Babylon the great city be thrown down with violence, and shall be found no more... 24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of ALL who have been slain on earth."

Revelation 19:2 for his judgments are true and just; he has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication, and he has avenged on her the blood of his servants."



3) Because of her guilt, Jesus warns Jerusalem of her house being left desolate, and tells His disciples of it's destruction.

Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! 38 Behold, your house is forsaken and desolate. Matthew 24:1 Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. 2 But he answered them, "You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another, that will not be thrown down."

The disciples first question to Him... WHEN will this [destruction of the temple] occur?

Matthew 24:3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will this be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the (JEWISH) age?"

Luke 21:20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is at hand. 21 "Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are in the midst of the city depart, and let not those who are in the country enter the city; 22 because these are days of vengeance, in order that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 "Woe to those who are with child and to those who nurse babes in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land, and wrath to this people, 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

= = = =

You see Revelation was written prior to the destruction of Jerusalem and constituted a warning in code for the saints of the day who were subject to intense persecution by the Jewish authorities. Great tribulation was to fall on Babylon/Jerusalem which would result in the Jews being either killed or scattered throughout the nations. This all happened in 70 AD.

Nothing to do with churches or Christianity.

Find a good church that believes and teaches the Bible and worships both Father and Son and loves as Jesus commanded.

Neglect not the assembly of the saints because of some cult's faulty definition.
_________________
Jesus is Lord

VANDERHOVEN7 SAID

When was the Book of Revelation written?
by Wolfgang Schneider

Internal evidence

There are a number of points arising from the internal evidence, that is, from information given in the book itself, which all indicate the early date as not only probable but the only possible date for what is stated in the Book.
Warnings to seven churches in Asia

The Book of Revelation specifically mentions that this revelation was of special relevance to the seven churches in Asia and that John wrote it and had it sent to those churches by messengers (cp Rev 1:4). It is important to note that during Paul's ministry in the 50ies AD, there had been nine churches established in Asia. At about 60/61 AD there was a large earthquake in which, as we can read in secular sources, the cities of Colossae, Hierapolis and Laodicea were totally destroyed. Laodicea was the only city of these three which was rebuilt soon afterwards, which then left seven cities with churches in Asia. The period of time where there were only seven churches in Asia was only during the few years from the early 60ies AD to the time prior to the Jewish war.

In order for the book to even be of benefit to the Christians in Asia, it must have been written prior to 66/67 AD, before Vespasian was coming through this area with his armies as they were getting in position for the war against the Jews. Once the war started, the Romans plundered and persecuted the Christians as well as the Jews wherever they came through.

An interesting detail from the message to the church at Philadelphia (cp Rev 3:7ff) also sheds some light on the possible time of writing. The believers at Philadelphia are warned by Christ in this revelation that an "hour of temptation" was imminent and "about to come upon all the world [the Roman empire]" and that they should hold fast and remain faithful as he [Christ] was coming soon. This is important and significant in that it is addressed to believers of a church in the 1st century AD and in that the first persecution of Christians all over the Roman empire took place under Nero Caesar in 64 AD. If this warning to the believers in Asia about an imminent temptation and the encouragement to hold fast related to this persecution, then the book seems to have been written even prior to 64 AD.
John's later activities

Another internal evidence in the book itself is connected to a reference about certain activities which John was still to experience in his life afterwards. In Rev 10:11, John is told that he "must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings". Now, if John would have received this revelation in 96AD and written it at that time, then these words which he was told did not come to pass, seeing that he was a very old man at that time and hardly able to walk and travel. But, if John did receive this revelation and write it down during the time of Nero approx 65-66 AD, then he could fulfill what he was told. He would have been able to prophesy and to teach during the reigns of Caeasars Galba, Otho, Vitellius, Vespasian, Titus and also Domitian (spanning the time from 68-96 AD).
Destruction of city and temple at the end of the age

There are a number of references in the book of Revelation with symbols that have reference to the temple, and in addition Rev 11,1-2 makes reference to the destruction of the temple and the city of Jersualem. This event was also foretold by Jesus, when he prophesied about the judgment on Jerusalem which was to come by the Son of man at the end of the age.

There is a parallel record in Zec 14:2 about this "day of the Lord" with its destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, and Zec 13:7ff places this shortly after the shepherd would have dispersed his sheep (Jesus did quote from this section in Mt 26,31). Rev 11,2 is also a parallel to Mal 4, where a day of the Lord is spoken about when the Lord would separate and burn the chaff (the evil ones). This also parallels what Jesus mentions in parables about the burning of the chaff, the burning of apostate Israel, "at the end of the world [age]" (cp Mt 13:40,49).

Now, when is or was "the end of the age"? Other records in the NT scriptures provide some insight as they mention certain things which happen in connection with the end of the age. The writer of Hebrews speaks of Jesus as "now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." (Heb 9:26), and we can see from this passage that "the end of the world [age]"is the time when the Messiah Jesus through his sacrifice put away sin; in other words, the "end of the age" was the time during which Jesus lived and fulfilled his ministry almost 2000 years ago.
_________________
Jesus is Lord

AGUEST SAID




The WTBTS is one of "her" daughters, dear Crim (peace to you!), by means of being the "product/offspring" of those who WERE/claimed to be joined [in marriage] to Christ, but committed adultery/fornication with "the kings of the earth." Hence, those who WERE/claimed to be joined to Christ are a part of that "harlot" and "Great City", depicted as an unclean, defiled woman.

Just as those who DO belong to Christ... but "have NOT defiled themselves with "women" are also part of a "woman" and "city": the "clean, chaste bride" that is the "New Jerusalem."

BTG's "daughters" are the religions BORN of her fornication WITH the kings of the earth. Thus, like their "mother" (those who turned away from their husbandly owner, Christ, to commit such fornication), in turn, ALSO commit fornication. Hence, she called the "Mother of the Harlots". She's a harlot and her unclean "daughters" are harlots, also.

Those who join themselves to such "women", then, are "defiling" themselves.

After condemning the works and status of the ONLY religion established by his Father, the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies... the HOLY One of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH, and thus HIS "Christ"... did not set up a new religious organization, dear one. To the contrary, he said, in response to the Samaritan woman's assertion as to "where" and "how" we are to worship:

"The woman said to him: 'Sir, I perceive you are a prophet. [color=#0040FF]Our forefathers worshiped in this mountain; but ​YOU​ people say that in Jerusalem is the place where persons ought to worship.' [Jesus] said to her: “Believe me, woman, The hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will ​YOU​ people worship the Father. YOU​ worship what ​YOU​ do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation originates with the Jews. Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him. God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship in spirit and truth.[/color]” John 4:19-24

The Most Holy One of Israel does not dwell in handmade temples; He dwells in the "temple" that is His PEOPLE. (1 Corinthians 3:16) And so, "where two or more are gathered," there Christ is. BUT... he can and also is with ONE... wherever that one is, as long as such one is "in union" with him. MANY showed this: Noah, Enoch, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, David, Samuel, Nathan, Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, the other Prophets, Ananias (when being told of Saul of Tarsus), Peter (when being told of Cornelious, Philip, Stephen... John, on the Isle of Patmos.

In this light, I would have to disagree with dear Vanderhoven (the greatest of love and peace to you, dear one!), and share with you that it's our dependency on PEOPLE... rather than our reliance on GOD, through CHRIST... that gets us in trouble. It is our "need" to be known and approved and agreed with by PEOPLE... rather than our NEED to be known, approved, and in agreement with GOD (through Christ)... that our Adversary exploits.

If we lean on JAH, though, by leaning on Christ... we will find that people, while a pleasant addition to our lives... are not the MEANS for it. We will be able to withstand their disapproval, disagreement, isolation, ridicule, persecution, etc., for the SAKE of the Christ... at all times. If we don't conquer THAT "need", though, for people... which we can by replacing it with that for God and Christ... then we put ourselves in line to reap fulfillment of Christ's words that:

"Brother will deliver up brother," and "A man's enemies will be members of his OWN household," and "he that is ashamed of me in front of men, I will be ashamed of him before my Father," and "wicked men will arise from among you," and... and... and...

I am NOT saying that we SHOULDN'T fellowship; I am saying that if fellowship is IMPORTANT to you... you run a huge risk. Because eventually you WILL either be required to, or will... succumb to the "herd" mentality, to "going along just to get along"... to the conduct of Peter... who literally denied our Lord in front of men... because of his fear and concern for his OWN flesh.

You can't get around it. It's why so many stay in the WTBTS: they are more concerned with losing their loved ones and/or their approval... than losing God and His. But as Christ is recorded to have said:

"What profit a man... if he gains the WHOLE world... but loses his soul [spirit]?"

It is okay to love people; indeed, it is a requirement. It is not, though... to need them, at least to the extent one will choose people over God/Christ. And one who thinks they can "touch" an "unclean" thing... and NOT get dirty at all... is fooling oneself. As well as trying to fool holy spirit... which warns us against allowing such a need.

Lot didn't need to have sex with his daughters; those daughters made that decision... and carried it through after drugging Lot. He didn't even know what they had done at the time. Was he at fault? To some degree, yes, because he should have STAYED AWAKE. But he allowed himself to be drugged - "needed" that wine - so...

I am not advocating for or suggesting anyone be a hermit, not at all. Indeed, Christ said that we would not be taken out of the world. My point is we should be cognizant of what we allow ourselves to NEED... OF the world. Being a part of it shouldn't be on the list.

I hope this helps and, again, peace to you!

YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

SA

AGUEST SAID

There's a reason, dear ones, why the WTBTS, LDS, SDA, RCC... and almost all religions... push the "herd" mentality: to confuse and then mislead the herd!

Yes, there might be a lion or two over there --> and so one or two (okay, five) sheep might lose their lives. However... there's a honkin' CLIFF over THERE <-- ... along with a PACK OF WOLVES... and most of, if not the entire flock... led into a frenzied stampede by even the slightest sound... can be lost.

Since we're only sheep metaphorically, better to learn the habits... and habitats... of wolves and lions... which, unlike our beastly counterparts WE can do!... than to be led straight over the cliff and into the pit.

As always, peace to you all!

YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

SA