xjwsforChrist

Thank you because the whole I before E thing was really bothering me and I couldn't help but focus on that instead of acknowledging the spirit of the heading . It doesn't really change anything but my mind is at ease now

_________________
To fear me is to love me....

*pats self on back*

; )

Peace,
tammy

Ah, but Pup, it's been fitting in beautifully with the theological gymnastics and non sequiturs popular on this forum, don't you think?

*pokes Chariko in the eyes*

_________________
To fear me is to love me....

Bad dog

Hellpuppy fear me...

_________________
To fear me is to love me....

*points sternly to the blanket in the corner*

*pees defiantly on your shoe*

_________________
To fear me is to love me....

The Trinity is NOT a mystery at all.
I know that one of the hardest things to let go from the JW's was the "brainwashing" of the Trinity.
The Trinity states that Father, Son and HS share the same Nature in perfect union.
That is all.
God is the "term/name: we give to that union.

It took "centuries" to develop the Trinity doctrine because of the cultural issues of the different peoples.

As early as the GOJ we have a direct follower of Christ stating that Christ was IN God and WAS God.
In the same Gospel Christ IS the HS/Advocate and GIVES the HS to His followers.

1st generation converts viewed Christ as being the same as God, look at Colossians and Philipians.

Look, the doctrine came to be simply because the "issue" of Christ's nature had to be addressed and they addressed in the best way they could BASED on THEIR cultural context.

Is it perfect? is it clear?, hell no !
LOL

But it does give a more accurate view of CHrist's nature and His relationship to The Father than any other doctrine, certainly better than the JW version.

*shakes head at the appalling training this Pup has so far received*

*thinks....places blanket from corner nearer to the nice warm fire, to feel more like his home environment *

Paul, I do so like the above post. You have addressed beautifully the gradual development of the understanding of the Trinity, because just as Christ told the apostles, their understanding did increase after he left them. He made it clear: "When he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth" John 16:13.

The Trinity is the Hypostatic union, relational, Father, Son and Holy Spirit united in the union of the Love which they are and were and will be, now and always, in the unity Who is God Almighty Himself, Three distinct Persons in one God. All co-equal, all consubstantial, none preceding another, all of one being, God from everlasting to everlasting.

In contrast to the depth of thought and honest insight in Paul's post, there was this rather mocking little item earlier:



Bless you, Shelby! Is it so very difficult to understand when something is an illustration and when something is a proof? ( For the sake of Loz, who objected a week or so ago when I used the phrase "bless you", as though, improbably, she had never heard it before, "bless you" is in fact a benevolent expression, an abbreviation of the kindly short prayer "may God bless you", as if someone with a First Class degree wouldn't have known that anyway!) However, back to Shelby...

Rather naively perhaps, I supposed that you would understand what even infants here can grasp quite readily, that something can be used as an illustration and demonstration so that simple or uneducated minds can grasp a concept with which they are struggling, without anyone failing to see the difference between an illustration, or demonstration, and a proof. It never occurred to me that you wouldn't understand.

Is there anyone else out there who doesn't understand who Saint Patrick was? Are you sitting comfortably? Then I'll begin. Saint Patrick was not a Biblical character, as Shelby has, perhaps superfluously, pointed out. He is an historical person, who took the then very new Good News of Jesus Christ to the land of Ireland. He was famous for both the depth of his faith and his ability to explain to uneducated minds the reality of Christ's message and of the nature of God.



Thank you very much indeed, Shelby, for so very helpfully defining an important element in your belief system. You believe in Binitarianism! Your beliefs are Binitarian!

Excellent clarification. I'd never even heard of or encountered any instance whatsoever of Binitarian thinking before venturing onto this forum, quite rapidly revealing now its embryonic and transformational reality, so I hope you'll forgive my slowness in recognising it for what it is.
It remains to be seen whether it is caterpillar-like in its identity, or more at the chrysalis stage. I think caterpillar. I'd guess there's much more to come, but we now have the first clear doctrine. Binitarianism.

Oh, you asked me a question...where did Christ say "Look to the shamrock"?

*patiently*

Shelby, the shamrock grows only in Ireland. Did Jesus ever go to Ireland? I really don't think he did, you know.

The issue that same address is that Christ IS the HS and because of that, is "triune" correct or should it be "biune" ( like the bitarians believe).
What has to be addressed in that case is:
Was the HS in the OT Christ?
Every time that the HS of God is mentioned in the OT and NT, is that Christ?

Because Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all co-equal and consubstantial, the Spirit that moved upon the face of the waters at Creation was the same Holy Spirit who came down on Jesus at His baptism and on the gathered throng at Pentecost.

So, no, the mention of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament is not Christ, not at all. The coming of Christ is presaged over and over throughout the Old Testament, but it is not Christ. It is the Holy Spirit, proceeding from the Father and the Son, with Whom He is glorified now and for ever and from for ever.

The only difference between the Eastern and Western church is that in the eleventh century the East decided that the Spirit did not proceed from the Son, (the Filioque) yet they too believe wholeheartedly in the Holy Trinity.

An extra thought: your mention of binitarian belief is interesting. The binitarian belief system has demoted the Spirit to something other than God, an extra kind of fluence that will act a bit like electricity, much as the JW's do, but that is also Christ himself but invisible, still showing in this belief very much the remnants of WT thinking. Hard to justify in the face of Christ's clear words indicating the other Personhood of the Holy Spirit, as I quoted and referenced above.

Surely, even "an infant could understand" (I mean, really, with the snark and sarcasm and snide remarks... think perhaps we could cut that back?):

No one in this discussion is, or is promoting, binitarian in their thinking here. The 'theory' of trinitarianism was/is being discussed, and so using the reasoning that supposedly supports the trinity, that reasoning adds up only to TWO.

Unless someone wants to answer the questions about this third person. Whose name those professing the trinity do not know. Making my remarks on this doctrine a couple of days ago accurate:

"nameless third person of the trinity"


He does, have a name, though. But that name is not known to those professing the trinity. To those not professing the trinity on this forum, however, the Holy Spirit (the Spirit as Paul calls Him, the Spirit of Truth - truth being Christ, spirit being what He is) IS Christ and so does have a name that is known.

In any case, for anyone who wishes to know the Truth of the matter, well... go and ask the Truth, and allow Christ to explain it to you. So that you do not have to rely upon men or tradition, that may or may not be accurate. Because it is Christ who reveals God, as His Image and Word and Truth.

Peace,
tammy