xjwsforChrist

So... maybe it's not so good to BE a herd animal. Maybe better to be a FLOCK animal... and just listen for the call of the flock's SHEPHERD. The JOB of a shepherd is the PROTECT the flock, yes, even from wild and dangerous predators? Well, there are many shepherds, yes. But only ONE is the FINE Shepherd... and that One gave... and gives... HIS life for the sheep. The others... are merely "hired men"... who don't care for the sheep at all. To the contary, they see the "wolf" coming... and abandon the sheep TO the wolves. Because... they sheep don't belong to them and so they don't REALLY care what happens to them. They care... about their OWN "skins."

Oh I love this Shelby...remember when we were told in the WTBS to always stay in the middle of the congregation lest the roaring lion (Satan) would capture us on the edges? This was a complete underestimation and undervaluing of Christ our shepherd's care of us! And didn't those hired men abandon us if problems befell us?

Christ never did though. He stayed close to us, caring for us as He promised His father He would, and yes, led us to safety. Wonderful.

Loz x

_________________
"This is my son. LISTEN to Him!"

Exactly my points, dear, dear Loz!

Peace to you, luv!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama

PSacramento, I am curious about your statement so let me ask you a few questions: Exactly what “place” then does personal revelation have? Where is its place? Is it not written the “interpretations belong to God” who reveals them to his people (sometimes by way of dreams) such as to Joseph (and others) and visions?

Did not Noah have a personal revelation about the coming global Flood? Did his wife “hear” that revelation? Or any of his three sons? Or any of his three daughters-in-law?

Did not Abraham have a personal revelation about the sacrificing of his son? Did Sarah “hear” it? Did Isaac “hear” it?

Did not Jacob/Israel have a personal revelation? Did anyone else “see” or “hear” the wrestling with the angel?

How about Mary the Magdalene? Didn’t she have a personal revelation with the Risen Lord? Or the two walking on the road to Emmaeus? How about the Apostle Paul, did he have several revelations?

Did not the apostle John have personal revelations? Who else on Patmos knew this?

PScramento, where is this “place” that you speak of concerning personal revelation occur? When does it occur? With whom does it occur?

Do you accept that these individuals had “personal revelations”? And if you do accept, to what purpose?

I am interested in your view of where and whey and why these "personal revelations" take place (or do not take place). Thank you.

--Armand

Not exactly. Triune in fact has its meaning in its name, "tri" meaning three, and "une" meaning one.

It means three in one and one in three. That's why, when Saint Patrick took Christianity to Ireland, he used the shamrock, the little plant with one leaf with three plants, to illustrate how a being can be one yet three at the same time.

In that way,God is One and One in Three. Father, Son and Holy Spirit, One God in Three Persons, one Blessed and Holy Trinity.

Perhaps some of us have different interpretations/understandings as to what is "personal" revelation, dear Armand (peace to you, dear one!). For me, personal revelation is something my Lord reveals to me, ABOUT me, or something personal TO me. If, though, he reveals something and directs me to share it with those of his Body I am in (some manner) of association with, then, for ME... to withhold it would be tantamount to refusing to "feed" his sheep.

I realize that some think what I share is personal... meaning, my own "interpretation." And they are welcome to think that, as my Lord's direction to ME is to share what he tells me... whether others hear or refrain. Since I have to answer to him for not obeying and doing "just so" (and since HE gave his life for me and HE is the One who can GIVE me life)... I really don't worry about what others think about it. They will either receive it or reject it. Entirely they're choice.

I DO wish, however, that they would consider, sometimes, that it might be THEM who is offering "personal" revelation (although they may deny it as "revelation")... perhaps on BEHALF of another... when they opine or state what a particular religion, theologian, or religious scholar, etc., "says" about a matter as having precedence over what Christ says. I don't mean instances of "Well, Christ told me, so it must be true," but, for example, when one posts what Christ is recorded to have said. I marvel that such often gets completely ignored, yet we are asked to "believe" what, say, some canonized individual "said." And with NO glory given to God, Christ, or holy spirit for GIVING it such one.

Just... boggles my mind, that... when asserted by "christians."

Now, when asserted by atheists, agnostics, non-christians, etc., it makes sense. Such ones PROFESS that they don't have faith (in God/Christ). So why would one EXPECT references to Christ's words to support/corroborate a position? Makes NO sense. But for one who professes a union with Christ, seems to ME that HIS words should take precedence over ANY others'.

Whether those words are written... or spoken directly... both of which are verifiable, in one way or another.

Maybe we should discuss in more depth what "personal revelation" is?

Peace!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama

Different understandings? No, Shelby, triune means what it says. One thing which is also three.

Some find it difficult to grasp.

Naturally, anyone can choose to think what they will, but for a public definition, if we want to be truthful, the actual meaning should be stated. Three in one.

Char,




Peace,
tammy

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/triune

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/triune

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/triune

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

I hope it helps

Yes, dear Char (peace!), I get that. My point, which I think you missed... is the "'tri' meaning three" part. What three? Father loves Son... Son loves Father... Father plus Son equals two. Father and Son are in union and so one. So, the TWO are in union and together make one. The Father and the Son in One person. So, either way you slice it... BI-une (TWO in one), perhaps, but no way TRI-une. Else there's yet ANOTHER person, which does not seem to be what dear P (peace, luv!) stated... and so I asked, who is that "third" person? I will await his response, though, because your's still doesn't make sense... or add up.



OHHHHhhh! The shamrock PROVES the "Trinity"! I truly did NOT know that! I don't think many others here did also. So what does, say, cannabais prove? Cause you've got FIVE leaves, there. How about the water lily? One leaf in one little plant...

Wait. Where, pray tell, did Christ say, "Look to the shamrock!"?? No, I don't think he EVER told us to look to a shamrock to prove something as to him and the Father. I could be wrong, though, so I'm open to some supporting information.



So, I will ask you once more... although I KNOW you will "pretend" not to see and so not respond: what did PAUL... whose letters are in the Bible... mean when he said "The Lord is the Spirit"? How about John... whose letters are in the Bible, when he said that Christ was the "Advocate/Helper/Comforter/Paraclete"? Please... tell us what these two meant. THEN tell us where this "third" Person comes from.

Do that, and I will seriously consider considering that the shamrock proves the "Trinity"... per St. Patrick (whose writings aren't in the Bible, heck, who wasn't even around)... which is why he used IT to show the Irish how a trinity is possible... rather than have them look at Christ (oh, wait, though - that would have showed them that while possible... in plants... it was not the case with God and Christ! So... no, couldn't have them looking THERE!).



Sometimes I have no choice but to doubt your reading comprehension abilities, dear Char. There was no mention by me whatsoever of different understandings re "triune."



Not if one can count to THREE. 'Cause only only has to count one (the Father) and two (the Son) and... oh, wait... WHO'S that "third" person, again? A "truinity" is not what's being asserted by the theory, dear one. It's just what folks want others to BELIEVE is being asserted. The reality is that the MATH... adds up to a BI-unity.



Maybe reading comprehension isn't the issue. Maybe it's more about lucidity... 'cause I'm getting concerned.

Peace!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama

Just confused
Justmom

Why are you confused, justmom?

Three. Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Three Persons in one God. The links URL's which I posted to aid correct understanding of the word triune were posted to simply give the link, but these days everything's so clever that we even got a display definition of the Trinity, so pledge with a diagram of someone's idea of how to demonstrate it physically.

If you are still confused, justmom, try and ask specific questions, showing what you find difficult, and I'm sure one of us will do our best to help.

That answers Shelby's question too, though I think it must surely have been a rhetorical question. For you, Shelby, we know you don't believe in the Trinity. That's your loss, but the Third Person is the Holy Spirit, Father, Son and Spirit, One God in Three Persons. Since you do know, it was a very strange question, don't you think?

Well, let's take a looksee, dear one (again, peace to you!). Note, some underlining/bolding, etc., is mine, just to clarify what I am commenting on:



So, it's "traditional" (and not scriptural) as well as not EASTERN (or Orthodox) Christian symbolism...?



Okay, so we know WHO the Father is (JAH, JAHVEH, YAHWEH, "Jehovah"...) and WHO the Son is (Y'Shua, YeShua, YeHoshua, JaheShua, "Jesus"...). WHO... is the Holy Spirit? What is his/its NAME? And before you say he has no name, consider that the very basis FOR the "trinity" teaching is the (misrendering) of Matthew 28:19, which purports to tell the Body to go and baptize folks "in(to) the NAME of the Father, AND (the name) of the Son, AND (the name) of the Holy Spirit." So, what's the big secret? What is that Spirit's NAME?



Oh, but wait. How can THAT be? There is no mystery with God... as He is REVEALED through Christ. The only mysteries were as to the Babylon the Great. And even THAT mystery was revealed in the Revelation. Even so, Christ said the spirit of the truth (and he is truth, yes, so HIS spirit)... would lead us into ALL truth. And John said that the anointing teaches us EVERYTHING. So WHAT "mystery" of the Christian "faith"?



From where did they get this "understanding"? It's not written, so... what, holy spirit? And what/who was the Fourth Lateran Council? Let's see:

http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Council_of_the_Lateran

Oh, wait... it was convoked by Pope Innocent III... in 200... oh, no... 1215 AD!! More than 1,000 years after Christ?! And dare we read about Pope Innocent III?

http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Innocent_III

Now THERE'S a man with clean hands... and holy spirit! Not! But, heck, he called a council so...

This is most interesting though:



So, Christ, who is alive, can't/doesn't/won't speak to people, but dead Popes will. AND people who claim that Christ speaks to them are daft, bonkers, and silly... but some lady named Lutgarda can say a dead Pope appeared to and spoke to HER... even asking her (not Christ)... in the name of Mary (not Christ)... to get him out of purgatory... and achieve "sainthood." Very interesting...



The only statement in this paragraph that is correct isn't even totally accurate. It is that "all things are from the Father... yes... through the Son... yes... and in holy spirit! There is no "the" before holy spirit. Ever... except as man has placed it there. There is only a "the" when referring to the [holy] Spirit that is Christ. Or... show me differently.



I can only speak to two of there: first, that the THEORY of a trinity, as dear PSacto (peace, dear one!) and you have EXPLAINED it, points to "binitarianism." Well, adds up to it, if you do the math according to what you two have explained. The chart you included notwithstanding (it doesn't add up, either, but seems to be yet another "golden calf" for people to look at and go, "Oh, yeah, NOW I get it!" even when they don't...). However, since my Lord said the Father is GREATER than him, although the two are in union (which is absolutely understanding, as he is in union with US, yet HE is greater than US)... I would have to dismiss that term.

The other is Unitarianism which, before my Lord was glorified and BECAME the [holy] Spirit... was really the case. Hence, the Jewish and Muslim (or Isaac and Ishmael) interpretation. Because JAH said to Isaac's children ISRAEL (and apparently, to Isaac's brother, Ishmael)... before His Son arrived and was glorified:

"Hear, Israel: JaHVeH the God of US (or, "Elohiym" - oh, but, wait, JAH is 'Elohiym'!?? Well, doo-dah... duh)... one JaHVeH."

Wait. Not "three in one JaHVeH"? Not "one in two JaHVeH"? Not "one in three but really only two JaHVeH?" Just ONE? Yes, just one... because the SON had not yet attained to the HIGHER glory set before HIM: to sit on God's THRONE, AS "God". Because he had not yet INHERITED the KINGDOM of God.

But now HERE's a [very] interesting piece of trivia:

The original FOMENTERS of the "trinity" doctrine were some men referred to as the "Cappadocian Fathers." Who were these men? You can read about that, here:

http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Cappadocian_Fathers

What's most notable to ME is that not only were they the primary fomenters of the doctrine, but... there were three of THEM: Basil the Great (330-379), bishop of Caesarea; Basil's younger brother Gregory of Nyssa (c.332-395), bishop of Nyssa; and a close friend, Gregory of Nazianzus (329-389), who Patriarch of Constantinople.

Three guys: two of them brothers and the other a close friend. Hmmmmm...

But here's some interesting trivia about the word "trinity" itself (found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity#Etymology):



One of the "sources" for the above is QUITE interesting, particularly as to why some of those who don't believe the Trinity doctrine don't, and those who do, do (I don't fall among either any of these groups). Interestingly, the site states, under "History of the Doctrine of the Trinity," that:



Why, if (1) holy spirit OR the Holy Spirit was leading/guilding/directing/teaching, and/or (2) the Bible was/is inerrant??



Well, let's see if that's true:



Uh-ohhhhh... problem. 'Cause without at least those two things... given no profession of leading through holy spirit... or BY the Holy Spirit (Christ)... then it's mere speculation, isn't it? But how can mere speculation be truth?????



Really? Where in "John" (which is interesting, because "John" isn't even John... but Lazarus, but ho-kay, let's look to "John")? The comment cites Matthew 28:19; John 1:1; and John 10:30. Let's look at the verses from "John" first:

"In the beginning was the Word: the Word was with God and the Word was God." John 1:1

So, okay, we've got the Word (or Christ, the Son, etc.) and God. Two. The Word (Christ, the Son) WITH God. So, okay... even two in one. But still only TWO... in one. No, the Word and the Holy Spirit was with God. No, the Word and the Holy Spirit were God. No God was with the Word and the Holy Spirit. Nope. Just the Word...and God. Two. Not three, at least not here.

How about John 10:30:

"The Father and I are one."

Okay, so we have the Father... and "I" (Christ, the Son). Two. Not the Father, I, and the Holy Spirit. Not the Holy Spirit, the Father, and I. No, still only two. Not looking like "trinity" (i.e., THREE in one) math, to ME... but I could be wrong.

Let's move on then to Matthew 28:19. For THIS one, though, I am going to go to the Greek. I think it's important to do so. So, here, from the Greek:

"... baptizing them in the name of the father and son and holy spirit."

Oh, but wait... it doesn't say "IN" the name of the father, does it? The Greek word for "in" is "en" (Strong's G1722); yet the Greek word USED here is... "eis". What word is THAT?? It is Strong's G1519 (oh, oops!)... and means "inTO". And what happened to the capitals?? There are no capitals in Greek. So, men had to choose where to use them. How did they know WHERE to do so, though? I mean, without just guessing? Holy spirit? The Holy Spirit? Or... more speculation?

How about this:

"... baptizing them... in the father's name... INTO the Son... WITH holy spirit."

Hmmmmmmmmm... But is there anything in the writings to substantiate THIS transliteration? You betcha there is!

BUT... rather than just give that information right now, I am directed to exhort you to go to Christ... whom YOU call "Lord," yourself... and ask HIM... whether this latter renditition is correct or not... and if so, for HIM to tell you, give you proof, show you were it is "written," so that YOU will know the truth about it... FROM the Truth. And THAT way, you won't have to say "Shelby" told you. I shared it with you, yes... but absolutely do NOT have to take MY word for it. Indeed, DO not. Go, rather, and ask for yourself. DON'T rely on me... or on Pope Innocent III... or Tertullian... or Basil... or ANY man. Go the One at least ONE of us (me) claims to have received it from... and ask him. For yourself. Just put your faith in HIM... that he WILL respond... and do so IN truth... WITH the truth as to this matter.

If you cannot do that, however... let me know and I will share the verses that corroborate it. Please, though, try him first. For your OWN spiritual well-being... and freedom.

Again, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama

Shelby......

I can see why with this thorough information, the trinity remains a mystery.

Heck, trying to prove it, is like trying to explain the whole 607b.c.e. and 537 b.c.e and 1914-1918/19
" new light" and well Christ arrived in 1914 but he arrives again in the future when he sits on his throne, but he's actually already on his throne reigning, but not really yet until the 1,000 yrs begin, and we are separating sheep from goats right now but not really until he arrives again. And there's a war of Armaggedon to end all pain and sickness and death. But not really because there's another war at the end of the 1,000 years that will " really" end all death and pain!


Its all a mystery!!


Sorry just can't wrap my simple mind around all this. I know my mind is simple but it spent a long time trying to make sense of all this mess...

And praise Jah His son has found me, and allows ME ( just simple me) to KNOW HIM!

Love to you all
Just feeling silly!
Justmom

Somebody please change the word "Diety" to "Deity" it's been shooting into my eye this entire time

_________________
To fear me is to love me....

I fixed it in the OP for your poor eye, but I am not going through each subsequent heading to fix it, lol.

Peace,
tammy