xjwsforChrist

I'll look it up.
My point was that Our Lord communicates to us in the way He KNOWS is best for us at any given time.
Sometimes it is directly and other times via other methods.
I think that He knows that I don't always "trust" myself in regards to His voice because, quite frankly, too many times it is what I WANT to hear.
In those times I am always compelled to search out for more "evidence" that my view is going where it is suppose to.

One of the reason that I never use "personal revelation" when debating is that, quite frankly it doesn't carry any weight with the "other side" and maybe that is why I also tend to "confirm" my views with outside sources.

Yes, that's the normal approach, and what I do too on any matter that is not personal.

Answers about personal matters are exactly that, personal, and many would prefer to keep them private. Answers about, for example, Biblical texts, or other factual matters of general interest are something that most would want to check and correlate. Just as, when studying, one would not rely on one book but have several at one's side.

Nice post. Thanks.

As somewhat of a Christian apologist I have learned after debating/discussing with skeptics that any type of "personal revelation" is irrelevant to any argument other than, as you said, a personal one.
Funny thing is that most skeptics do ask why doesn't God reveal himself to them/us, which would of course be a personal revelation.
I think that personal revelation has its place BUT that place is not in the realm of doctrine and biblical interpretation.
Just as most people require some sort of basis for re-examining their view on historical events, the same applies to religion/spirituality/bible.

My views exactly, Paul. Well said!

You might mean something other than how this has been received, Paul, and I think that you do. In that you are stating that revelation and the Spirit means nothing to someone who does not believe in this things to begin with. So you think another approach should be taken with them.

But in truth, Christ is the one who opens our eyes to what is written... and so He and what He reveals is essential to understanding the Truth about what is written. The Spirit teaches, and guides, and opens our eyes, and our ears. We understand scripture according to what Christ teaches and shows us. Not according to our reason, but according to His Truth.

Peace,
tammy

Answers about, for example, Biblical texts, or other factual matters of general interest are something that most would want to check and correlate.

Check and correlate with whom and against what, dear Char (peace to you!)? For me, Christ, the Holy Spirit, is sufficient. Indeed, he is the ONLY "source." Because he ALONE is the Truth... and always speaks the truth. As the statement goes, "Let GOD be found true, though every MAN a liar." So why would I choose what man states over what Christ himself states? This just doesn't make any SENSE to me... as a "christian"... and particularly given what John wrote about it (and those who wish to mislead us to do otherwise):

"They have gone from among us, but they never really belonged to us; if they had belonged to us, they would have stayed with us. But this was to prove that not one of them belonged to us. But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and have all received knowledge.

"I have written to you not because you are ignorant of the truth, but because you are well aware of it, and because no lie can come from the truth. Who is the liar, if not one who claims that [Jesus] is not the Christ? This is the Antichrist, who denies both the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son cannot have the Father either; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father too. Let what you heard in the beginning remain in you; as long as what you heard in the beginning remains in you, you will remain in the Son and in the Father. And the promise he made you himself is eternal life.

So much have I written to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. But as for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you; since the anointing he gave you teaches you everything, and since it is true, not false, remain in him just as he has taught you.

"Therefore remain in him now, children, so that when he appears we may be fearless, and not shrink from him in shame at his coming."
1 John 2:19-28 - Jerusalem Bible

Now, I am not one to put store in what man says over Christ, but SURELY we can put more credence in what John... who was one of the 12... wrote about these things than we can, say, any post-apostolic opiner... yes?

Let me ask you: how do you suppose Pharaoh knew to believe Joseph when that one interpreted his dreams? Their fulfillment hadn't come to pass. So how did Pharaoh know? How did Israel know that what the Prophets were saying to them was true... since what was prophesied had not yet come to pass? How do you suppose the first century congregations would know whether the "interpretations" by Paul, John, Peter, James, and Jude were accurate? How do we know that Philip was told to join himself to the Ethiopian eunuch... since apparently no one heard it but Philip? How do we know that Samuel... or Abraham... or Noah... or Moses... heard JAH speak to them? How do we know that Peter was shown a sheet full of unclean things and told to eat? How did the seven congregations to which Christ spoke KNOW that the revelation John shared with them CAME from Christ?

John tells us: the anointing these received told them.

How, though, did those who decided what to include in the Bible canon "decide"? An "anointing"? But then, why leave out some "scriptures" and include writings that were NOT "scripture"? Is Christ/the Holy Spirit divided?

We have no problem accepting when men say they were told to appoint "elders" and "pastors" and "priests" and "popes"... "by holy spirit." Who corroborates that, though? Those who say so? How do YOU know? Because of the NUMBER of those who say so? At one time, 12 men said Christ as the Son of God. 12. Not twenty, not 30, not 100. 12.

How many, though, did NOT believe he was the Son of God?

You forget, dear one: MANY... are called. FEW, though, are chosen. Or perhaps you just didn't know that... because those you follow didn't tell you. If not, they should have. Because that is what CHRIST said.

Again, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama

One other thing that i have come to realize is this:

What we think another person can or will hear, does not mean that we know or are correct. It is in fact trusting in our own judgment, over our Lord's judgment. He knows who is listening, and who will hear, and He would not send anyone out to speak what He has given them to speak, in vain. We have to trust that matter to HIM.

Think of how many people do not even believe they are hearing from Him, because so few profess Him speaking. By not speaking, or watering things down, someone who might have heard, did not.

We (in general) might not know why or to whom or for what reason we are sent to share something given to us, never taking credit for ourselves but giving glory to the One to whom it belongs, but He does know.

Peace,
tammy

Yes, I mean in the realm of apologetics, thanks for clearing that up Tammy

As Christ opens our eyes (since He IS the Word of God) He also helps us to understand how to better communicate to others, believers and skeptics alike.
One thing though, we must always be clear that, if our personal revelation is correct, we must be able to reason with it and NOT fall back on simply "Christ told me so".

That is what I thought, thanks Paul : )

And yes, we should definitely be able to defend what our Lord gives us to share, as He also helps us to know how to defend such. Hence, the call to 'test the inspired expressions."

Peace and love to you, Paul,

tammy

So, what happens when 2 ( or more of course) people getting what appears to be conflicting messages from Christ?


( you knew someone was gonna ask that, LOL)

Please forgive me, dear, dear P (peace to you!), but a couple/few things here that I must ask about. Please, though, do not take me as contending, not at all, but I need to address these:



My understanding is that "triune" denotes three. So, okay, the father loves the son, the son loves the father... BOTH are the HS...

Where, though, please show me, is the "third" person? I see the father and son, being separate... and the father and son being one, in the HS. Okay, I won't dispute that, as if the Son is the HS (and he is), stands to reason that the Father COULD be, as well. So, yes, okay. Yet, in each scenario (father loving son, son loving father... and both being the HS), I only see TWO. Even where, in the form of the HS... the TWO are ONE. Not three. Are you saying that, combined, the Father and Son make UP a third Person? If so... WHY? What need is there of a third, separate Person?

For instance, in a marriage... there is the husband, who loves the wife... and the wife, who loves the husband... and then the "entity" of the two that is one. Yet... where is the THIRD... and separate... person "created" by such union?

Can you help me out, please? 'Cause I'm not seeing it, dear one.



I have to disagree with this, dear one, and I mean NO offense in doing this. But I think you miss the truth that God's love... IS self-centered. FIRST. Because it is His love OF SELF... that fomented His love... OF others. Please let me share with you how my Lord explained this to me:

WE must love God... with our WHOLE heart, soul, mind, and strength. AND... we must love our NEIGHBOR... AS ourself. If we love GOD so, though, what is LEFT of our heart, soul, mind, and strength... to love OTHERS? AND if we DON'T love our SELF... HOW can we love our neighbor AS ourself? Also, a man must love his wife... AS HIS OWN BODY. JUST as Christ loved HIS Body... and gave himself up for it.

Is not a man's BODY... PART of that man?? And so, if Christ loved his Body... doesn't that mean he loved HIMSELF?

And so, how can God center His love on OTHERS... if it is not centered ON HIMSELF? Because aren't those others OF Himself? The same with Christ: how can he center his love on his BODY... if it is not centered on HIMSELF?

Now, God's love is not self-ISH... or self-SERVING which is not the same thing as self-CENTERED. Because everything came OUT of God... including the world! It was created... "in the ark" (the womb of the Woman)... which some state as "in the beginning." Christ, the conduit FOR the creation... was "in the ark" (the womb of the Woman). Which is why it is stated that "in the ark" (which some state as "in the beginning") "was the Word." He came forth FROM God... from the womb of the Woman that is IN God (just as Eve was IN Adham).

Hence, a man's love MUST be self-CENTERED... in order to BE OTHER-centered. But... it cannot be self-ISH... or self-SERVING.



Ummmm... not quite, dear one. God was ALWAYS complete. He did not NEED anything. He brought forth the SON... from within Himself... from within the womb of the Woman that is IN Him... because of His LOVE... for that Woman... and thus, for Himself. Because He wanted to SHARE that love... with someone OTHER than Himself. Because that is what love WANTS. To "produce". Look at nature, dear one, including plant life.

JAH is a gardener, a cultivator... and thus, a "producer" of life. Christ... is the Life... He produced. (Proverbs 8:22; John 14:69)



I am not sure how you came to this conclusion... but it... frightens me, truly. The MOST Holy One of Israel was ALWAYS complete. HE DID begat the Son... and He SAID. But that doesn't mean something was "missing." It just means something was PRESENT: love. Which brought forth that Son.

Please... ask again, if you did as to your understanding here? Because I'm not sure of its source. You may have missed something, dear one. And please, know that I do not mean to content or offend. But my spirit literally groaned here, dear one. Please... ask again.

Again, pleace to you!

YOUR servant, sister, and fellow slave of Christ,

Shellama

Let me ask you: how do you suppose Pharaoh knew to believe Joseph when that one interpreted his dreams? Their fulfillment hadn't come to pass. So how did Pharaoh know? How did Israel know that what the Prophets were saying to them was true... since what was prophesied had not yet come to pass? How do you suppose the first century congregations would know whether the "interpretations" by Paul, John, Peter, James, and Jude were accurate? How do we know that Philip was told to join himself to the Ethiopian eunuch... since apparently no one heard it but Philip? How do we know that Samuel... or Abraham... or Noah... or Moses... heard JAH speak to them? How do we know that Peter was shown a sheet full of unclean things and told to eat? How did the seven congregations to which Christ spoke KNOW that the revelation John shared with them CAME from Christ?

Awesome points my sister...

Yet all they heard was " a voice" a voice they put faith in, obeyed and did ' just so.'
And today many trust that what here is written is inspired. Many believe this to be true and view these ones as an example of faith.
Yet if we are to " test ( what they heard) the inspired expression to see if it is from God"....

We are in actuality only testing against " a voice".... Written down and called scripture.
And those that believe whats written down then actually only follow and trusted a voice as well.

I know what I'm trying to say, not sure it's coming out that way.
This is such an awesome point made as to those that heard, and it seems most don' t question THEIR faith as to the voice they heard from as being from God.

Just had to get to out LOL!!!
Love Justmom

Yet all they heard was " a voice" a voice they put faith in, obeyed and did ' just so.'
And today many trust that what here is written is inspired. Many believe this to be true and view these ones as an example of faith.
Yet if we are to " test ( what they heard) the inspired expression to see if it is from God"....

We are in actuality only testing against " a voice".... Written down and called scripture.
And those that believe whats written down then actually only follow and trusted a voice as well.

I know what I'm trying to say, not sure it's coming out that way.
This is such an awesome point made as to those that heard, and it seems most don' t question THEIR faith as to the voice they heard from as being from God.

Just had to get to out LOL!!!
Love Justmom [/quote]


YES, Just Mom, I get what you're saying. Excellent point! And so very obvious when we think about it.

Loz x

_________________
"This is my son. LISTEN to Him!"

Yes, exactly. I had this conversation with someone else recently, regarding this line of reasoning perhaps from that same paper that you read Paul, but I cannot recall if it was on jwn or here, or who exactly I was speaking with.

God IS love, and from love (from God), came the Son.



Test the inspired expression. Against Christ, against love, against what is written. Go to our Lord and ask Him.

Sometimes, after testing still resolves nothing between two people, it may comes to it tha, you simply have to follow your Lord and let Him lead you or correct you, if need be... and leave Him to correct the other person, if need be also. You can simply share what He has given you to share; and what others do with that is not up to you.

I have truly not found too many people arguing over what Christ reveals to them, actually saying to them in spirit, that cannot be made clearer in testing the inspired expression. More often, it is the religions and the doctrines,and interpretations of man... that are in conflict with one another. So we already KNOW that way has not 'worked', lol, in having people hear and see the same truths.


Peace,
tammy

I think we discussed this once before, dear P (peace to you, luv... and thanks for using "appears" - LOLOL! because that IS the case!). The answer is simple, actually: either NONE are hearing from Christ, regardless of what they profess, or one (or more) is not. Because Christ/Holy Spirit is not divided.

This is not an unusual thing, though, is it? Did not Moses have that issue with Aaron and Miriam? And with Korah? What about Saul and Samuel? Christ and the priests/Pharisees? Stephen and the Jewish leaders? Paul and some of the "older men" from Jerusalem (on the issue of circumcision)? Apparently, the issue had come enough for John to write what he did as to the anointing teaching us.

Hence, again, the admonition to "test" the "inspired expression." Which one should ALWAYS do (hence, my seemingly unending "disagreements" with folks - because I DO test what is shared and some doesn't past the "test")... unless their spirit BEARS WITNESS to the truth of what is shared... without doubt. Even then, though... still good to hold it up to the "Light"... which Light is Christ, yes?

I understand how, given how much and how far most of us were MISled by folks claiming to "know"... and "have [the] truth," and be "the truth," etc., that going out on one's own can be FRIGHTENING. Indeed, at least one religious institution drums it into your HEAD not to do that. But there is just as much danger in running WITH a herd as there is in lingering behind/on the outskirts of it. In the latter, one may be caught by a predator, yes, and dragged to their death. But in the former, once the herd stampedes, all caught in the front and center are run right over the cliff to THEIR deaths.

So... maybe it's not so good to BE a herd animal. Maybe better to be a FLOCK animal... and just listen for the call of the flock's SHEPHERD. The JOB of a shepherd is the PROTECT the flock, yes, even from wild and dangerous predators? Well, there are many shepherds, yes. But only ONE is the FINE Shepherd... and that One gave... and gives... HIS life for the sheep. The others... are merely "hired men"... who don't care for the sheep at all. To the contary, they see the "wolf" coming... and abandon the sheep TO the wolves. Because... they sheep don't belong to them and so they don't REALLY care what happens to them. They care... about their OWN "skins."

Confusion comes in, dear one, when one tries to listen to the voice(s) of OTHER shepherds... rather than their own. S'how they end up in the wrong "pens," my dear.

Praise JAH... HIS Shepherd continually goes around looking for HIS sheep, though... and calling them out of those "wrong" pens! After which they follow HIM, as HE goes before them and leads them.

At least, that's what Christ said. John 10:1-15

He didn't say that he leads them BACK to such "pens", though, but only OUT of them.

I hope this helps, dear one!

Peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama