xjwsforChrist

It is important to understand that "evil witches" is something that is very real to many people, even today ( Haiti is an example).
I could tell you some stories of "witches" from the old country and they spells and "hexes" that would put on people.
Many were gypsies but many also had their own "business' where people would go for help with "problems".

Another view:
http://catholiceducation.org/articles/h ... h0056.html

The end part is well said:

After a 20th century unmatched for bloodshed, the world today is in no position to disparage early modern Europe. Witch-hunts have much in common with our own political purges, imagined conspiracies, and rumors of ritualized child abuse. Our capacity to project enormities on the enemy Other is as strong as ever.

The truth about witch-hunting is worth knowing for its own sake. But the issue has added significance for Catholics because it has! provided ammunition for rationalists, pagans, and radical feminists to attack the Church. It is helpful to know that the number of victims has been grossly exaggerated, and that the reasons for the persecutions had as much to do with social factors as with religious ones.

But although Catholics have been fed comforting errors by overeager apologists about the Church's part in persecuting witches, we must face our own tragic past. Fellow Catholics, to whom we are forever bound in the communion of saints, did sin grievously against people accused of witchcraft. If our historical memory can be truly purified, then the smoke from the Burning Times can finally disperse.

Yes, Paul, that happens everywhere, but so what?

Jehovah's Witnesses are every bit as objectionable. More so, for their ensnaring and manipulation of minds.

Oh, it's not the same thing.
"black magic" witchcraft is not some sort of "mind manipulation" via guilt and remorse, it uses herbs and "potions" that cause serious physical issues and addictions in their victims.
A "love potion" is given to the victim and he goes through so much pain and anguish ( mental and physical) and he only finds "comfort" in the arms a the certain "loved one" that gave it to him in the first place. Of course that "loved one" happens to have the potion that counters the effect of the, in fact poison, that was given to the victim.

The kind of witchcraft that lead to persecutions in the past ( and in some places today) is NOT something to be take lightly or trifled with.

Hmmmm. Debatable. The museum in Reykjavik also has exhibits of the persecution of those who used magic, often a term used against those who healed with herbs. Other museums not far from where I live exhibit similar things.

In the twenty-first century, people pay a lot of money for herbal cures, and practitioners of herbal medicine abound, and are respected. Here in the UK herbal teas are very popular.

Similarly, from ancient times astronomy was expected to include understandings of the effects the stars had on human lives. Early Mathematical geniuses such as Pythagoras were also astrologers and herbalists.

Thus, the perception of black magic is entirely in the mind of those who look for it and fear it. Superstition. Nothing more.

Though, Jehovah's Witnesses fear these things very much, and they do come from branches of the same Puritans who persecuted the witches.

I just saw your mention of the black magic use of herbs that cause afflictions and addiction. You mean the kind of herbs that people willingly and illegally indulge in now at great expense? The herbs that the medical profession uses in medicine?

Black magic? I think not.

I am speaking from experience, but as with all things, I can only speak from what I know.
Black magic is nothing other than using what is for good, but using it for what is wrong.

What an odd random topic lol

_________________
To fear me is to love me....

Very interesting phenomenon though!

PSacramento: Wow! That is some article you posted with that link. I have read much of it. I'm going to print it out and read at my leisure as I can. The atrocities committed by self-proclaimed "Christians," by both Protestants and Catholics alike, was abominable and tragic in the extreme. And almost always by the authority structure (or "men") of said organizations. Why didn't these self-proclaimed Christians see the lack of love in this? "By their fruits you will recognize them," the Christ said. While an "apology" from said churches would be nice--it is WAY too late for those who have suffered at their hands. What good is an apology when nothing changes? It has been said that the best apology is changed behavior. It's too late for those who have died. And it doesn't matter if it's religion or government. Not too far in the past (I can't remember who), some governmental official apologized concerning the U. S. Government's treatment of American Slaves as well as treatment of the Native Americans. Yet, what changed behavior for the better has the government done for these? It's just tragic!

As Martin Luther King Jr, said:
The problem is not too much Christianity, it is NOT ENOUGH.

The core of Christianity is self-sacrifice for those that persecute Us, that all are our neighbours and we are to love and live for them.

We are not perfect and sure the body of Christ is a hospital for sick people and NOT a museum of saints.

No other religion is as "self-correcting" as Christianity by the way.
Hence we believers in Christ point out our mistakes, try to fix them and do better, because deep down we KNOW.

Lol.. actually the Body of Christ is a 'museum' of saints.

Saints are the body of Christ. Saint just doesn't mean what it has evolved to mean. (perfect, sinless, etc)

Sorry, Paul... I just never looked at that saying like that before, and doing so now, it tickled my funny bone ; )


Peace,
tammy

It was St.Augustine's quote, one of his arguments against those that believed that, for some reason, believers should be beyond reproach and never doubt or be weak or fail.
He was addressing this in defense of some of the clergy that, under persecution, gave up writings and scriptures to be burnt ( some even denied Christ out of fear of death).
There were some the believed those people should NOT be allowed to return to the church, citing the many martyrs that did NOT buckle under pressure.
Augustine made it clear that to demand perfection and martyrdom from all was just wrong.
Peter was a perfect example.

Oh, yeah, I get that it is supposed to mean that, Paul. I've just been on a kick examining sayings that people use... and taken at face value, this saying is incorrect. Plus, I think that some denominations have a separate class for saints, as opposed to saints simply being those of the Body of Christ. Might be a fun thread... examining all those 'sayings' that people use. I might start one.

Peace,
tammy

The term "saint" as used by Augustine and his contemporaries was the "classical" greek of "holy ones".
It's not the term per say or even the definition but how OTHERS used it and expected people that were viewed as such to behave.
You can't say that Augustine was incorrect in what he said unless you realize WHY he said it and to WHOM.
He was addressing those that believed that the body of Christ should be blameless and sinless.
He pointed out that it was impossible.
His analogy is a very valid one IMO because it makes clear that the Church is for and comprised of those that Christ came to say: the sinners.
As for the different classes of Saints, yes denominations have their own take on it.
Augustine's point was that in a religion that was aimed at flawed, fallen and sinning people, to expect a "sainthood" is ridiculous.
It also is bordering on "salvation via works" as opposed to Salvation thorough Grace.

What denominations have separate classes of saints, Paul? That's new to me. I've never met a Christian group that talks about classes of people, let alone saints, except the Jehovah's Witnesses, who don't even think that Jesus is God, so some say they are not even Christian.

Saints are holy people, yes. In a homily recently, a priest pointed out not only that we all have the capacity to become saints, and that the least outwardly likely people may well be saints amongst us now, thus demonstrating yet again that no-one can judge another.