xjwsforChrist

What are your thoughts on this bible. Is it inspired by God and what about the extra books that our usual bible doesn't have. Sounds interesting to me.

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/07/06/ancient.bible.online/

Would have to test the content against our Lord and love, and ask Him... same as for the one we do readily have available.

Curious... aren't those extra books spoken of in the link from the OT already in the catholic version of the bible? I know that there are some extras in the Catholic version, than in the Protestant version.

I would not be in the least bit surprised that there were other testimonies to Christ, though these are not necessarily inspired, not even the ones we do have are so. But I think that we do know that there were many other accounts and testimonies and witnesses to Christ that were not included, but were written and sent in.

Peace Zoe!

tammy

This link gives you a clearer idea of which books are included in this ancient Bible. They are familiar to me, and are included in every Catholic Bible. In fact, at Mass this morning, we had a reading from the Book of Tobit.

I was extremely surprised, a couple of years ago, to find that Jehovah's Witnesses had never heard of the Book of Tobit, and did not know the story of Tobias and the Angel (Raphael) which I thought everyone knew.

Tammy, you said an interesting thing there. You said you



Do you mean you would trust an inner dialogue over what is written in the Bible?

Good morning Char : )

I would trust the Spirit of our Lord over anything and anyone else, including over something that is written.

The written word does not save anyone. (you diligently search the scriptures, thinking that by them you have eternal life... yet these are the scriptures that testify to ME, and you refuse to come to ME to have life) The written word can only point to the One who DOES save. It is Christ God told us to listen to, it is Christ who is alive (the living Word). And Christ who said that the Spirit would teach and lead us into all truth. Not the bible or the scriptures... but the Spirit. We are to listen to Him. As God also said... this is my Son; listen to Him.

This is not to say that the written word serves no purpose. It acts as a witness to Christ... and... helps people to have something to see, helping them to learn to put their faith in Christ and the Spirit. But at some point, once you are listening and being led by the Spirit of Truth (Christ), then you learn simply to follow Him, and keep your faith in Him, wherever He leads.

Peace to you,
tammy

But what I mean is, Tammy, that you are saying that you, in your own head, will decide for yourself, based upon your own inner dialogue with the Lord, within your head?

What if what you hear from him differs from, say, the Gospel of St John? From the Book of Revelations? From what St Paul writes in one of his letters? From the Book of Leviticus? From what justmom finds when she asks the Lord, in her own head, the same question you asked him in your head? That Loz asked? That Shelby asked?

If you are telling me that you judge your own estimation of what the Lord says over more than two thousand years of countless lifetimes' worth of research by scholars learned in ancient languages, holy men and women who over more that two thousand years have had the same inner dialogue that you and Shelby and Loz and probably other less vocal ones here say they have, but everyone else calls it prayer....if that is what you are seriously saying, then, I am very sorry to have to say it, but I have to say it.....

.......well, choosing my words carefully.....Tammy, it doesn't make sense. Really and truly, it does not.

Surely you can see that? That you would judge the veracity of the Book of Daniel against your own inner dialogue? That you would base an estimation of God's word on that, preferring to trust your own thoughts/inner dialogue over the Book of Daniel, say, to ascertain God's true will or word?

Worrying, Tammy. Worrying.

I have never heard of those extra books in that bible before...I would be very interested in reading them. Can I find them in the Catholic bible Chariklo? My whole background and memory of scriptures are all JW based.

I am not sure what Tammy means by what she said about the spirit telling her whether these extra books in that bible are inspired or not.

I still am finding this spirit speaking to individuals quite mysterious. That doesn't mean I think it's crazy, just not something that many people experience. It makes me feel like I am missing out on something sonewhere.

You can find Tobit, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, etc. in the Douay-Rhiems Bible on Project Gutenburg http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/1581. That is a free download, if you don't mind the archaic language.

Yeah... I know what you meant. But you are mistaken. I am simply listening to Him. Not deciding for myself what is true... but listening to what He tells me is true. Faith, not sight.

Most people fear that, and need the sight to confirm the Spirit... when it should be the other way around. I do understand that there are charlatans out there, but again, that is why one tests the inspired expressions, rather than just blindly follow another person.



Well, in the end I would put my faith in Him and what He tells me.

But I can test what I hear, and we are called to do just that. Against love, always, and against Christ - in spirit, and then in what He is written to have said; then again against what is written (sometimes it is a matter of men not understanding what was written... a misinterpretation; and man can pass his misunderstandings on to the next generation, which is why tradition is not trustworthy on its own merit)

I can also ask for further clarification. Did I misunderstand? Can you help me out in better understanding, Lord?

Those commended for their faith.. heard and obeyed. That is not to say that they were not allowed to question. We have examples written down that show that questioning IS permitted.



By estimation... I assume you mean my interpretation of what He says. I do not. I simply trust what HE says...



I trust Him, more than them. Absolutely. Scholars base their knowledge on previous knowledge and assumptions, and can be wrong. God does not say... listen to scholars. Christ did not say, scholars will come and lead you into all truth. Same with other men. I do not dismiss them, but I do not follow them. No more than I would ever want anyone to follow me.

Follow Christ... by listening to HIM. Not through others, but to Him, Himself. His voice; the Holy Spirit; THE Teacher, THE Lord, THE Master.



Prayer is not the same thing. That is probably why we call it two different things... not from a lack of understanding in the concept, but an actual difference.

But again, i would not follow anything anyone else says as truth, without testing it first. Sometimes the spirit within immediately cries out 'amen'. Testifying to the Truth of something shared. Sometimes I am not sure... so I test against love, and I can ask... and if I am still not sure, as long as it is not against Christ, then I will just leave it be until a time when my Lord wants me to know it, and so reminds me of it or teaches me myself.

I take everything with a grain of salt, unless He has confirmed it to me.



I am not offended, and i am sure you are not trying to offend. I would wager that it does not make sense to you, and to others, because it is not mainstream, or common-place, or accepted. But it IS what our Lord teaches, and IS written to have taught. It IS what others of faith HEARD, and that is also written. We even have the words 'worship in spirit and in truth'... but the worship is the same in religion as it was before Christ said that. In what is seen, rather than in the Spirit.

In that light, I would offer for consideration that religions are the ones not actually following what is written, but most often relying upon their own interpretations of what is written.

Many people in religions claim that the Holy Spirit has power and teaches... but they don't actually exercise that faith that they claim. Because they don't actually think that He does speak and teach, except in a more symbolic understanding.

Abraham had faith... he HEARD, and obeyed. The apostles had faith... they followed when Christ called them. Paul heard in faith, he did not check what the others were teaching; He listened to the Spirit of Christ.

Christ still speaks, and our faith is to be in Him, first and foremost. We are to listen to Him.




See, I am not judging anything against my own anything. But against Christ and what He teaches... in spirit, as the Holy Spirit; keeping His promise to come and to lead into all truth. I know that this is hard for you, and many others, to grasp... because you do not actually think that the Spirit of Christ, of Truth, is the One speaking.

That is the bottom line, and where many people's faith is lacking.



See above for my response on 'my own thoughts/inner dialogue'. But God's Word... is Christ. Christ is the LIVING Word of God. That is why we are to listen to HIM. HE is the Image of God. The Truth. The Word.

Nothing and no one else.



I understand your worry. Faith... not just belief, but faith - the kind that Christ wondered would even be on the earth when He returned... can be scary at first. A form of it is taught and accepted... but 100% pure faith in the Spirit and voice of Christ; that tends to be taught and spoken against.

Christ, however, is more powerful than those men or those fears. He has overcome the world. Anyone can go to Him, ask Him, seek and knock... then put faith IN him that he will answer. He did for me. As others here have testified, He did the same for them.

Peace and love to you,
tammy

I just meant that I would ask my Lord if I wondered, rather than rely upon what other said.

Often, you can see what books are at least meant to be inspired by what the author of them says (not counting the scribe that might have copied for the author)

"I was in the spirit"

"The Lord took me away and showed me..."

"The Spirit said to me... or the Spirit showed me..."

In contrast, the book of Luke is not inspired. He investigated and interviewed others, so as to write down an orderly account. He makes it clear that he researched the witness accounts of others, and wrote those into a paper for a particular person.

Did that help clarify?

Peace,
tammy

Thanks so much for the link... I now have the Douay bible in my iPad e-reader

Zoe, not to overload you with Catholic Bible texts, but the most modern translation, and the one used throughout Catholic churches in Britain, is the New Jerusalem Bible, and you'll find this very up to date translation online here

http://www.catholic.org/bible/

You might find it more comfortable to read.

GL, thank you so much for your input! Much appreciated!

It cannot be other than an entirely subjective experience, Zoe, and that's exactly the point I was making.

Tammy, I understand you. Are you not aware of the subjective unreliability of trusting what each person asks in their own head of the thought processes or even the spirit that is/appears to be answering them?

Can you not see that this simply does not hold water? It just doesn't stand up to reason, and certainly does not accord with everything Christ said.

Not only did Christ entrust to Peter his church and the care of his flock....or did you swallow the unreliable teaching of the JW's whose translators were emphatically not linguistic experts....but the Holy Spirit is in his church, having descended upon the apostles and the assembled gathering at Pentecost.

So, we have a church filled with the Holy Spirit, (whose Personhood you and others don't acknowledge) and you and other individuals talking, each in their own head, to a spirit they assume is Christ but with no external verifying evidence.

That, Tammy, is not faith. That is deluded recklessness of the highest order. Sorry to say it, but it is.

This is a lack of faith in the power of the Spirit.

It doesn't even have anything to do with me. It has to do with denying that Christ CAN and DOES speak... as He, Himself, stated.

Who was Paul listening to? Abraham? Peter when He knew who Christ was? The rest of the apostles who heard Christ, and followed Him when He called? The writer of Revelation? The Prophets?

Look at the Jews who listened to their religion and its traditions/teachings... and so did not listen to or even recognize Christ.



See, this is what others have been saying. You are the one telling others that they are not hearing from the One they say they are hearing from. That He is not the One speaking, and so cannot be trusted. That we should instead trust in something from the church or the bible... but not the Spirit of Christ; the Holy Spirit; the counsellor sent to teach and lead us into all truth.

Let me ask you... if you knew that Christ spoke to you... and He said something that contradicted something that your church or your current beliefs are... who would you listen to?




My sheep hear my voice. (religion gets around this by suggesting that this is symbolic)

When the counsellor comes, He will remind you of all that I have said. (the Spirit very often reminds me of something Christ once said/taught... and is written down)

When you are brought before synagogues, rulers and authorities, do not worry about what to say or how to defend yourselves, for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what do say. (as opposed to all the prepping, etc, that people do; which is a lacking in faith in Him and in His words here)

The Holy Spirit will teach you all things. (not the bible, not men, not religion)

But when He, the Spirit of Truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on His own; He will speak only as He hears; and He will tell you what is yet to come.


Those are just a few examples of what CHRIST said. Never mind the example we have in Paul... who did not go and learn from Peter. But who learned from Christ, Himself, in Spirit.



I have heard from my Lord that the verse used... on this rock I will build my church... is the FAITH that Peter showed, in hearing and believing what was revealed to Him by God. Not by man.

If you want external evidence... then ask HIM, rather than listening to what others have taught you that it means.

As for the other verse... feed my sheep... this does not mean that Peter is the only one who will feed and care for the sheep. Or that he is in charge of them. Only that this is something the Lord tasked him with doing. A reminder, so to speak.

Indeed, at the last supper, Christ set an example for all the apostles to follow. That does not mean only the apostles, but also all who belong to Him... otherwise, the call to 'keep doing this in memory of me'... would only apply to the apostles, as the wts teaches.



I have no idea what teaching you might be referring to.



Yes... His church, being his body, being all those who belong to Him. Anointed with holy spirit, as were those at Pentecost. The people who make up His Body.



I acknowledge the Person of the Holy Spirit... Christ is the Holy Spirit. Not a nameless third personhood of the trinity doctrine.



You will understand, from all that I have sad, that I will listen to my Lord over you, and over what your church says, as well as over what the wts says, and the calvinists, and the lutherans, and the mormons, etc, etc.

I know that you see faith in Christ, the Spirit, as a risk... without the confirmation of your church. (though what external evidence do they have other than their interpretation on some scriptures? I mean, we KNOW that church has done and caused harm. Our Lord does not do this. You will say that the church is made of imperfect people... and of course this is true of anyone, including me... but this is what all false religions say to excuse their mistakes in the name of Christ and God, in the past)

See, Char, I see faith in man as a risk. He HAS proven himself unreliable. He has let people fall.

My Lord will not let me fall. Man will.

My Lord has never led me wrong, nor spoken anything other than truth to me. For me to turn away from Him... and instead put my faith in someone or something else; when we are told to put our faith in HIM... I cannot, and am not willing to do such a thing.


Peace,
tammy

May I just add, that I am not angry or hurt or trying to speak in anger or anything, or 'fighting'. Just was speaking plain, but not worrying too much about being overly gentle or pc, or making something easier to accept. Just trying to speak truthfully, and so am a bit passionate as well.

Peace,
tammy

Yes I think I would prefer the New Jerusalem Bible, I don't do well with archaic language lol, hard enough to understand it as it is.

I am not worried about Tammy, she sees and understands things in a different way but I know by instinct and am positive she is a good person and will do no harm and intends to do good things. For that reason I will not question her way of seeing things and think what she is talking about is her instinct about testing things. Sometimes you just gotta believe even if it's not visual or what everyone else is thinking.