xjwsforChrist

PSac is correct; this is not a new doctrine. The distinction is between deliberately rejecting Christ's message on one hand, and sincerely living as best one knows how on the other. From articles 847 and 848 of the Catechism (emphasis added):
...Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse to enter it or remain in it. ...
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience--these too may achieve eternal salvation."

Yes, GL, and had you not done so I would not have dared, I think, to quote direct from the Catechism here! (Thanks for that!)

The preceding article, 840, says this:

"...all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body"

and there we have almost word for word exactly what Shelby has also been saying here, with just one tiny variation.

Thanks so much for that, GL. I have my own copy spread on the desk before me as I write, and it confirms exactly what I knew and what I've been saying. Wonderful to have you confirm what I've been saying, and also to be reminded of the reference, and I cannot tell you how good it feels for me not to be quite so much a voice crying in the wilderness, so to speak, as during recent days!

Thank you!

Lol... that tiny variation (from Christ through the Church - meaning through the RCC, right?)... is not so tiny ; )

Salvation comes through and from Christ. No one else is needed for that salvation to come through.

No one comes to the Father except through Christ. But no one needs to go through anyone or anything else, to come to Christ.

(PSac has quoted from the catachesm before, I believe. Not a big deal. But what is stated may well be challenged.)

Not trying to be contentious. Just honest.

Peace,
tammy

Paul Sacramento isn't a Roman Catholic, Tammy, as far as I know, and although the word catholic attaches to and implies all who follow Christ, meaning all believers, a non-Roman Catholic probably wouldn't quote the Catechism, though I'm open to correction, Paul! Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong!

So, Tammy, given that the word "church" means the Body of Christ on earth (where we all are at this point in time) and the Body of Christ as meaning those who follow Christ, where is your objection?

Do you actually mind, personally, how people choose to follow Christ?

I don't understand your objection. We are all in agreement, that we follow Christ and are obedient to him and only him. What is your objection to how people choose to obey him and act in accordance with his wishes?

I am definitely puzzled here. There's a clear non-sequitur. It's very peculiar.

And you say that what is stated may well be challenged. Hmmmm....it's hard to see why anyone would want to challenge someone else who is following Christ, and Christ alone.

Interesting, though, that you didn't choose to challenge or comment until it was I who stated agreement with GL. His post remained unchallenged, as always happens, even though he and I choose the same way to follow Christ. Paul, too, while not, as far as I know, belonging to the same group of Christians as GL and myself, nonetheless has very mmuch the same understanding as we do. Yet the objections ranging from disagreement to downright hostility are aimed solely at one of us.

Curious.

I believe Paul studies theology, but anyone can look up the catechism, right?



Salvation does not come through the Body of Christ either. Lets say that I am part of the Body of Christ. Salvation does not come through me (the church), and if I ever said that it did, then I hope someone would object. Salvation (life) comes through Christ.

So that is my objection to that statement.



I do not.



Hopefully, I clarified that above. Saying that salvation comes from Christ... through someone else... is placing someone between man and Christ. Like a mediator between man and Christ. I think that we both agree that there is no mediator between man and Christ.

So it is that statement that I object to.



Again, hopefully, that has been clarified.



I would not, and am not, challenging that.


Peace,
tammy

I apologize in advance for my poor computer skills.

When it says " in the church" I do not believe this to be a small variation.

Below, the Church doctrine teaches something similar to the JW teaching, that is.
once you have come to know the "Truth" (WTBS=Truth) and you leave that truth or do not remain in it the
Likelihood of having life is slim to none. Jehovah Witnesses use Hebrew 6:6 "but, who have fallen away, to revive them again to repentance, because they impale the Son of God afresh for themselves and expose him to public shame".

What scripture does the Catholic Church use?




Quote:
IMO, The Church has always stated that the DIRECT route to salvation is faith in Christ.
It has also stated that those that, for no fault of their own, do NOT believe, that what happens to them is Up to God and Christ.
In short, God KNOWS why we believe or do not believe and based on THAT, we will be judge accordingly.
Ik

PSac is correct; this is not a new doctrine. The distinction is between deliberately rejecting Christ's message on one hand, and sincerely living as best one knows how on the other. From articles 847 and 848 of the Catechism (emphasis added):
...Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse to enter it or remain in it. ...
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience--these too may achieve eternal salvation."

I think we are getting into the realm of "outside the church there is no salvation" and how mis-interpreted that is.
Here:
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

The church is the BODY of Christ, which is ALL those the believe and profess Christ.
The church is NOT a building or an organization but a leaving and breathing entity that is ALL of US that believe in Our Lord and Saviour.

Has this teaching been perverted and twisted at times?
Absofreakinglutely

As for what IS the Church:

813 The Church is one because of her source: "the highest exemplar and source of this mystery is the unity, in the Trinity of Persons, of one God, the Father and the Son in the Holy Spirit."259 The Church is one because of her founder: for "the Word made flesh, the prince of peace, reconciled all men to God by the cross, . . . restoring the unity of all in one people and one body."260 The Church is one because of her "soul": "It is the Holy Spirit, dwelling in those who believe and pervading and ruling over the entire Church, who brings about that wonderful communion of the faithful and joins them together so intimately in Christ that he is the principle of the Church's unity."261 Unity is of the essence of the Church:

What an astonishing mystery! There is one Father of the universe, one Logos of the universe, and also one Holy Spirit, everywhere one and the same; there is also one virgin become mother, and I should like to call her "Church."262
814 From the beginning, this one Church has been marked by a great diversity which comes from both the variety of God's gifts and the diversity of those who receive them. Within the unity of the People of God, a multiplicity of peoples and cultures is gathered together. Among the Church's members, there are different gifts, offices, conditions, and ways of life. "Holding a rightful place in the communion of the Church there are also particular Churches that retain their own traditions."263 The great richness of such diversity is not opposed to the Church's unity. Yet sin and the burden of its consequences constantly threaten the gift of unity. And so the Apostle has to exhort Christians to "maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace."264

815 What are these bonds of unity? Above all, charity "binds everything together in perfect harmony."265 But the unity of the pilgrim Church is also assured by visible bonds of communion:

- profession of one faith received from the Apostles;

-common celebration of divine worship, especially of the sacraments;

- apostolic succession through the sacrament of Holy Orders, maintaining the fraternal concord of God's family.266

816 "The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."267

The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."268

So, should we have issues with what is stated above?
Some of it? all of it?

That is for each person to decide.

In that section, the Catholic Catechism uses, in its reference notes:

Mark 16:16

"Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned."

and John 3:5

"Jesus replied: In all truth I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born through water and the Spirit"

and Hebrews 11:6

"Now it is impossible to please God without faith, since anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and rewards those who seek him. "

and 1 Corinthians 9:16

"In fact, preaching the gospel gives me nothing to boast of, for I am under compulsion and I should be in trouble if I failed to do it. "

Tammy



But you are objecting to something that no church, to my knowledge, says, and certainly not the catholic Church, in its Roman, Russian Orthodox, Armenian, Greek or Coptic forms nor any other as far as I am aware, though i am as always open to correction.

So, the puzzle is, why on earth say it? Assuming that another church does something to which you object is fine and fair enough if a person says it when they don't know, but you and others here DO know, because you have catholics here who are only too willing to provide the information. Paul, who as you say is studying theology. I who have not only studied theology but have graduate and post-graduate certificates to prove it. GL Tirebiter who, like me, is a practising Catholic, Burntheships who, sadly, we haven't seen lately, and I know there are others with similar backgrounds.

So, I am really hoping, can we soon get past all the anti-Catholic prejudice prevalent here recently, do you think? It would be so lovely. All of us mentioned above including those who haven't "come out" as Catholics yet are ready and willing to explain anything that is still not understood, and we understand that those who have spent years under the deceptive cloud of the Watchtower, who manipulate anything and anyone to their own ends and who most especially, led by Rutherford, have an almost pathological hatred of the Roman Catholic Church...we understand very well that very wrong ideas have been almost etched into poeople's brains.

But they are Lies. Coming from the Master of Lies, who would like nothing more than to see this little group on the internet, this little gathering, who have been injured one way or another by the Watchtower but who firmly look to Christ Our Lord, the Son of God, and wholeheartedly follow him, should be split asunder by dissension born of falsehood.

Hi Char... I was just going off that article that you shared above:



I don't have a prejudice against the RCC, and i certainly have nothing against the people in her. I was not hurt by them, or even by the wts. I just disagree with the religions and their representation of God, and instead look solely to Christ to see God, as He has taught me. He has not led me to any religious organization, and has instead led me out and away from them.


But I, too, would like to move past the RCC stuff, and simply focus upon faith and love of Christ and His teachings... as He, and those who wish to follow and have faith in Him, is who this board is FOR.

Peace,
tammy

I understand, thanks, Tammy.

My fault, perhaps, in that I just quoted a small bit from the catechism page, same page that the others had quoted from. I was just so incredibly pleased to see lovely GL and Paul quoting from it that I got carried away!

Oh, yes, please!!!

Do let's move on from the Catholic question!

The phrase "agree to differ" comes to mind...

We can listen to the GB... the Pope... the Catholic Church... the Roman Catholic Church... the Armenian Catholic Church... the Church of JCLDS... the Church of... whatever or whomever... about ANY of the issues/questions we may have regarding God, Christ, the Bible, religion... or things related...

Or we can listen to Christ.

Since he is the One who GAVE his life to "save" whomever... whether it be everyone (it's not, dear ones, sorry)... no one (no, some WILL be saved and some won't - sorry, but that is the truth - whether we want to HEAR the truth or not... is on us, individually)... or just a few (no, way more than just a few, but absolutely not all, sadly)... my ear is toward him, the HOLY One of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah)... as to this issue (i.e., "who" will be saved) as well as who will not be, when, why, and for what purpose.

One can choose to make these things easy (for oneself and others)... or difficult. Why difficult, though? Oh, that's right: God, Christ, holy spirit, the Holy Spirit, the Bible... are all difficult things to "understand."

Not really, though.

Peace!

A slave of Christ, who is recorded to have said "There will be a resurrection of both the righteous AND the unrighteous" yes, but continue with, "The righteous to LIFE... and the unrighteous... to judgment"... and so NOT "all" will be saved, except "all" OF ISRAEL (Romans 11:26),

SA, who knows that NOT all will be saved, no more so in the future than in Noah's day, but judges no one because she hopes for mercy and so tries to be merciful... but sometimes falls short in that... and so is grateful for the One who gave HIS blood to "cover over" her error, so as to blot it out that it won't stand against her IN the Judgment...

I think we all agree, Shelby.

Let's listen to Christ. None of us wants to argue about the Catholic Church. I certainly don't. Please see my post early this morning, might be your last night, on the Learning to Understand each other thread!

I hope it helps!

Lovely to have you back!

Glad to be back, dear Char (peace to you!)... and I've just responded to some comments from you. Not sure they're what you were looking for... but they're honest and truthful. We'll get there, though, with Christ's guidance and leadings. I've no doubt.

Again, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama