xjwsforChrist

SOFT/GENTLE SAID

I am getting used to separating religion from spirituality but need to clarify the differences?
going to start this topic on jwn too

YPPUPLLEH SAID

Nowadays there seems to be more overlap. For me religion is more of a specific faith to follow/adhere to. You have a map and follow a path to your destination. Spirituality is more of an unspecified journey. Rather than use a map and follow a path you go by feel and it's more the journey than the destination.
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Love is a warm rubber puppy...

CRIMINY SAID



Sounds about right to me.

When I think of religion, I think of Religion, Inc. The Catholic religion. The Jehovah's Witness religion. On the other hand, I view spirituality as one's own personal, unincorporated "religion" of sorts. Very fluid... at least mine has been, MUST BE, due to constant learning and new understandings. A set of beliefs and procedures that I hold to be true TODAY, while always alert to the need for modification.

The whole JW mess in my life has left a bad taste in my mouth for "religion". However, when talking about Religion, Inc., I find myself always having to keep that word in check because it makes it difficult to define my own collection of personal beliefs, which is.... a religion.
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I could'a been a bug.

SOFT/GENTLE SAID

thanks hellpuppy, criminy
I'm kind of glad that you guys did not make a huge distinction between religion and spirituality because I don't think there is one and after reading the comments on JWN I am even more convinced of this. I ought to have asked what is the difference between religious thinking and spiritual thinking instead to see where that would go.

But from reading all the different comments I feel like coming at the question from the angle of suggesting that we might think in terms of what makes us feel heavy and what makes us feel light. In this sense then I guess we could say that the JW religion, and also taking their conception of world religion as false religion on board, make one feel that religion is heaviness and being burdened down. (But I think I would need to add the qualification that religion in general is not like that).
so I guess, as we are mostly xjws, lightness could then be termed spirituality and heaviness could be termed religion? Also if a poster wanted to say that beer and kfc are spiritual endeavours as they make one feel lighthearted, then we could allow that

TEC SAID

This is what i put on jwn:

The problem, I find, is that both those words 'religion' and 'spirituality' have taken on various meanings to various people.

Spiritual, to me, is more about faith and connection to the yet unseen... but real. (the spirit of Christ, and our Creator) No rules, no doctrines, no teachers other than Christ.

Religion, to me, is more about belief and connection to the seen. Such as rules, doctrines, holy books, rituals, artifacts, men as mediators, etc.


But this might help more with the distinction:

Spirituality is what religion is supposed to be based on. Rites, rituals, rules, doctrines, etc... to define the spirituality. I think we have those things because people have a hard time walking by faith, and prefer walking by sight.

So religions is more of walking by sight. What we can see, feel, touch, hear, read, etc.

Spirituality is more of walking by faith. Things not seen. It is more within us, where religion is outside of us.

People can get so caught up in religion in this sense, so dependent upon it, that they lose sight or never find the spiritual within them. Since religion is run by men, it is also prone to corruption, and therefore, if its adherents are dependent upon the religion, they are then led into corrupt beliefs and deeds. Often out of fear that religion has instilled in them.

Peace,
tammy

AGUEST SAID

I agree with dear Tams, dear S+G (peace to you, both!) except that spirituality is a bit more to me: I am spiritual because I am a SPIRIT - a potentially eternal and immortal being temporarily housed in a physically finite and mortal vessel. Spiritual is not something I choose or make myself to be - I was that before I was ever a physical being. Unlike my flesh, which I can alter; I cannot alter my spirit. LIKE my flesh (and its physicality), I can become more... or less... in tune with its spirituality.

Religion is a means that man has created to DEFINE the spirit and that which is spiritUAL, in imitation of a system established by God to help His chosen people, Israel, CONTROL their FLESH... by USING their spirits... because both have a mind and heart, separate from one another. And Israel showed that for them (for most of man, actually, but God was only concerned with Israel at the time, because of His plans for THEM) the two are more often in conflict, indeed, rarely in harmony.

So He created a system of "laws" and rituals to help GUIDE them; not as to the OTHER man, but at to each one's self. Unfortunately, this system was corrupted and abused by "men"... who turned it into a means to look at OTHERS (vs. themselves)... so as to judge them... while turning a as well as bind them to even more "laws" and burden them with even more rituals... while turning a blind eye to their own foibles.

And as time progressed, these systems "begat" other systems (beliefs, doctrines, routines, rituals, etc.)... some with less laws and rituals, some with more. One is referred to as Babylon the Great, with the systems begat by "her" being referred to as "women" (they all are, actually, but they are not all "adulteresses" in the manner of BTG)... or daughters.

Religion attempts to guide people to "God" (and/or Christ). Unfortunately, it cannot do that (hence, they are all false) because God is a SPIRIT... and it is only BY one's spirit that one can get to know Him. As dear tec pointed out, though, religion appeals to the FLESH... because it attempts to lead by appealing to the senses, primarily sight.

Spirituality, however, transcends the flesh because knowing God has nothing to do WITH the flesh. In fact, the flesh is in opposition to such knowledge and knowing. The spirit, while confined as to MOVEMENT by the flesh, is not confined in any other way: it can see, hear, taste, touch, and smell things, even those the flesh cannot.

So, where did all the confusion regarding the differences/similarities between the spiritual and religion come in? Through all those who deign to explain the spiritual... but have absolutely NO idea what it truly is! Fleshly people who try to explain the spiritual in fleshly terms. Who describe what IS spiritual as if it is [also] fleshly.

Kind of like referring to a apple when describing an orange: the only thing the two have in common is that they are fruit, grow from seeds, grow on trees, and can be eaten. And, well, yeah, they must be picked from the tree or the ground on which they've fallen... and tend to be in season around the same time. Other than that, though, they've really nothing in common.

Same with spirituality and religion: the one is an apple, the other an orange. It does one no good then, to try and describe religion as, say, a fuji, and spirituality a macintosh. Better to see religion as a valencia and spirituality as a golden delicious. They just aren't the same "fruit" - they don't look the same, smell or taste the same, come from the same [kind of] tree. Their skin ("garment"), pulp ("meat"), cores ("substance"), and juice ("water")... is entirely different. Entirely.

Like science, religion is bound by... and to... the physical world. Spirituality, because of its foundation, the SPIRIT... can transcend it.

This is why Paul, who understood spirituality and hoped for the day when he was able to manifest HIS (2 Corinthians 12:1) wrote:

"He is not a Jew who in one on the OUTSIDE; he is a Jew... who is one ON THE INSIDE." Romans 2:28, 29

I hope this helps and, again, peace to you!

Your servant and a slave of Christ,

SA

NAMBO SAID

Jesus said, "Happy is the man aware of his Spiritual need", that's probably Spirituality.

Trouble is, and it occurs with a lot of people who claim to be Spiritual, but not religious, without guidance, that Spirituality can get you ending up worshiping trees, or the Sun, its what has happened to most of mankind throughout history.

Religion on the other hand, is man, with their doctrines of men, giving you their version of the narrow road you should travel and that leads to their house.

The best and only form of guidance therefore, is from Jesus himself, and you will only find it in the Bible, that will lead to his house, though few are the ones finding it because most religions will divert and lead the Spiritual down the wrong road.

SOFT/GENTLE SAID

yes it helps a lot shelby - thanks
thank you nambo

AGUEST SAID



May I ask you, dear Nambo (peace to you!), what you think Christ meant when he said, as recorded at John 5:39, 40:

"You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life." New International Version (©1984)

"You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me! Yet you refuse to come to me to receive this life." New Living Translation (©2007)

"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life." English Standard Version (©2001)

"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life." New American Standard Bible (©1995)

"You examine the Scriptures carefully because you suppose that in them you have eternal life. Yet they testify about me. But you are not willing to come to me to have life." International Standard Version (©2008)

"You study the Scriptures in detail because you think you have the source of eternal life in them. These Scriptures testify on my behalf. Yet, you don't want to come to me to get [eternal] life." GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)

"Ye search the scriptures, because ye think that in them ye have eternal life; and these are they which bear witness of me; and ye will not come to me, that ye may have life." American Standard Version

"Ye search the scriptures, for ye think that in them ye have life eternal, and they it is which bear witness concerning me; and ye will not come to me that ye might have life." Darby Bible Translation

"Ye search the scriptures, because ye think that in them ye have eternal life; and these are they which bear witness of me; and ye will not come to me, that ye may have life." English Revised Version

"You search the Scriptures, because you suppose that in them you will find the Life of the Ages; and it is those Scriptures that yield testimony concerning me; and yet you are unwilling to come to me that you may have Life." Weymouth New Testament

"You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and these are they which testify about me. Yet you will not come to me, that you may have life." World English Bible

"'Ye search the Writings, because ye think in them to have life age-during, and these are they that are testifying concerning me; and ye do not will to come unto me, that ye may have life" Young's Literal Translation

You may notice that I didn't include the KJV, NKJV, AKJV, or Douay-Rheims bible versions. We can discuss that further, if you wish. But for now, I would like your take on the above, if you're willing to give it. If not, no worries, no pressure - just curious is all.

Again, peace to you!

Your servant and a slave of Christ,

SA

AGUEST SAID



Perhaps you might also consider looking up that verse in the Greek, dear one (again, peace to you!), as well as in other Bible versions. Even better... ask. I think you would be surprised to learn what it truly said... and meant.

Again, peace to you!

Your servant and a slave of Christ,

SA

CRIMINY SAID



Your question wasn't directed to me, but I'd like to take a stab at it.

The latter part of John 5 is talking about the various testimonies about the Christ. Jesus refers to his own testimony about himself as invalid (verse 31), the testimony of John the baptist (verse 33), the testimony resulting from Christ's works (verse 36), the father (verse 37), and finally the testimony offered throughout the scriptures (verse 39).

This statement by Christ serves to anchor his validity and point to himself as the source of our salvation. But it does not negate the importance of the scriptures.

The Jewish leaders to whom Jesus was speaking (verse 16) were studying the only scriptures available to them at the time, AS THEY HAD BEEN INSTRUCTED TO DO. (Joshua 1:8 ) Studying the scriptures was not their failure. Not acknowledging the Christ is where they went wrong.


This scripture zeros in on the focus of what our study should be: "This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ." - John17:3, but this "taking in knowledge" has to come from somewhere, other than human wisdom. (1 Corinthians 2:13)

Perhaps that is why the followers of Christ got a whole new set of scriptures along with renewed instructions to study them.

Just my .02
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I could'a been a bug.

NAMBO SAID







I think he meant that he was showing them that he was the fulfillment of the mosiac law and that the scriptures showed that, but they had come to worship their religion itself and by doing so rejected the path to which it was pointing.


Or in simpler terms, they considered still that they could obtain salvation through the law as written in the scriptures, yet unaware that the scriptures pointed to Jesus as salvation, and therefore by rejecting Jesus, they where rejecting the very path to salvation the scriptures they studied testified to.

Another case of religion.

As for the verse I quoted, Iam afraid I do not know where it is, I can recite a fair amount of the Bible but would only have a vague Idea where it is from.

CRIMINY SAID


I'm the same way, Nambo. I have the words in my head but hardly a clue where to find them in the bible. That's why I keep a copy of the Watchtower cd library on my computer. Because I am most familiar with the way the NWT words things, I can type it in to the library "search" and...voila!

If you don't have the cd library, but want one, you can now download it at jw.org.
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I could'a been a bug.

GLADIATOR SAID

Spiritual is an often misunderstood word. Many people consider themselves to be spiritual yet don’t believe in a personal god. They sense something that is not explainable in the physical world as science presently understands it.

The word occult is avoided in Christian circles as it is often associated with the idea of black magic or evil or dark forces. In fact occult comes from the Latin word ‘occultus’ meaning clandestine, hidden, secret, referring to "knowledge of the hidden." The western world has been dominated for many years by the Roman influence of mainstream Catholicism. Due to this the word occult has lost its currency as a work for spiritual.

Before this people, often in rural areas, had their own sense of spirituality. Their culture recognised the importance of an inner world that is sensitive to hidden or unseen influences. The Druids are an example of such a culture.

Personal experiences can be a trick of the mind. On the other hand many people have had verifiable experiences that defy all the parameters of how our world and our mind is supposed to work. Not wishing to be considered fanciful they are careful what they share.

TEC SAID



I didn't even recognize where that could be from; probably because i don't have a NWT.

Matthew 5:3

Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Puts a new spin on it just from that. Here are other translations:

http://bible.cc/matthew/5-3.htm

The Araimic version in the above side-by-side versions stood out to me.


Criminy, regarding John 17:3... that too is a NWT translation, though I know of it because I have read it used a lot. You probably know the others, but the meaning is changed quite significantly... from taking in knowledge of you (which is learning ABOUT God and Christ)... to KNOWING you (knowing God and Christ... having a relationship WITH)

John 17:3

Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."


http://bible.cc/john/17-3.htm

Just something to think about, if you have not already.

Peace to you both,
tammy