xjwsforChrist

It kind of goes back to what is a "true believer".
A discussion I don't care for at all to be honest.
Why?
No one can make that call.

That said, IMO, anyone that becomes an atheist was never a believer in the since that they were "sealed" by the HS.
I could be wrong though.
I think that things can happen in our lives that drive a wall between Us and God and even drive us away from God because we construct a God in our mind and expect THAT God to do/be the way we "made" Him to be.

I know that here are days that I feel that way, days where the wall between me and Our Lord is very high and very thick...

I don't know if I will ever lose my faith BUT I know that there are days when it is very, very hard.

Paul, I don't think there are any days when there is a wall between us and God. It is not God who is in our own minds, just that we erect a mental wall. We may fail to turn to him, but he is always there waiting for us, supporting us even when we don't even know he is there.

He isn't there just when we think he is. He is there with us always. Matthew 28:20

"and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

The Footprints Prayer:

One night I had a dream...

I dreamed I was walking along the beach with the Lord, and
Across the sky flashed scenes from my life.
For each scene I noticed two sets of footprints in the sand;
One belonged to me, and the other to the Lord.
When the last scene of my life flashed before us,
I looked back at the footprints in the sand.
I noticed that many times along the path of my life,
There was only one set of footprints.

I also noticed that it happened at the very lowest
and saddest times in my life
This really bothered me, and I questioned the Lord about it.
"Lord, you said that once I decided to follow you,
You would walk with me all the way;
But I have noticed that during the
most troublesome times in my life,
There is only one set of footprints.
I don't understand why in times when I
needed you the most, you should leave me.

The Lord replied, "My precious, precious
child. I love you, and I would never,
never leave you during your times of
trial and suffering.
When you saw only one set of footprints,
It was then that I carried you.

Read more: http://www.prayers-for-special-help.com/footprints-prayer.html#ixzz2U1yElMqY

As to the Catholic, not necessarily, dear HP (peace to you!). If they renounced their faith, say, in their system of worship.. say, for another system of worship... no. Because the Holy Spirit was never involved. He/it did not "lead" them into either system (although he may permit it, so that such one becomes "under men in charge" in order to learn the elementary things they must have forgotten)... nor is HE in/a part of such systems.

If they renounce such systems for faith in CHRIST... alone... absolutely NOT. They are turning TO Christ, the Holy Spirit. For whenever there is a turning TO the Lord, who IS the Spirit... the "veil" that PREVIOUSLY covered their HEARTS... and so their EARS and EYES... there is FREEDOM. 2 Corinthians 3:16-18

As for the Christian, and by that I mean one who IS "anointed/chosen"... by means of holy spirit... such they are joined TO Christ and so a Member of HIS Body... and not simply someone who CALLS themselves a "christian" because they were baptized or otherwise joined to some RELIGION that claims to be "christian"... or simply following Christ (which is DISCIPLE and NOT an "anointed" one)... same thing: depends on what... or... WHO... they renounce their "faith" in.



It would depend on whether such "believer" TRULY turned atheist... such that they PUBLICLY renounced the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies... by PUBLICLY renouncing His Son and Christ, the HOLY One of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah). MOST atheists renounce "God," "Jesus," "Jehovah," "Yahweh", etc. This NOT the same, however, as renouncing JAH or His Son, JAHESHUA. In order for such one to renounce THESE... they would have to have first KNOWN these. And... given the utter astonishment at the names... which they claim to have never heard... my guess would be that they don't.

And it is because of the MERCY of JAH that they haven't! Man's religions have done much to turn mankind AWAY fro God. Imagine, then, if these religions HAD known Him and HAD used His name - imagine how many WOULD have blasphemed! But, as it is stated, "Israel" has been given over to a state of blindness, a dulling of sensibilities. In this way, many have been KEPT from blaspheming. Why? Because their anger is not with JAH... it is with the constructs of "God" and "Jesus" that man has MADE... and what these CONSTRUCTS have done, said to have done, and others have done "by means of" and "in the name of" in the earth!

Tell me, if Christ was TAUGHT to you... and MANIFESTED... in ALL "christians"... as he appears to be in, say, the Bible... if ALL "christians" lived up to what he taught, and said, and commanded... who could find fault?? Except perhaps those for whom such exposed in a negative way?

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is a known, intentional, and deliberate act. True, it may not intend to, say, "curse" God or Christ. But it intends to FOOL, DECEIVE, DENY, BELIE, LIE ON, LIE ABOUT, TAKE GLORY FROM... and otherwise reproach, if not all out profane Him and/or Christ, the Holy Spirit. In some way or another. Ananias and Sapphira didn't intend to deny God or Christ. Or lie on either of them. Or lie about them, take glory from them, or reproach them. Or profane either of them.

They DID, however, intend to fool/DECEIVE them... by intending to fool/deceive the members of Christ's BODY (Acts 9:1, 2, 4)... and so... they blasphemed. To the extent they did it (intended to deceive) Christ's Body... they did it to him.

So, no, an atheist may not necessarily have blasphemed against the Holy Spirit just because they renounced their "faith" IF they (1) haven't received that holy spirit FROM that Spirit and so were never in union WITH HIm, or (2) renouced a FALSE god... which is what the "God" (including "Jesus") known to most of them is: false. Such is not a renouncement of the TRUE God... OR His Holy Spirit, Christ.

On the other hand, some (including 5 that I know of, all from JWN and, praise JAH, ONLY five, so a very tiny number, miniscule, again, praise JAH!)... have INTENTIONALLY blasphemed against the Holy Spirit. They INTENTIONALLY called down evil upon, cursed, denied, belied, lied on, lied about, reproached... and profaned... the Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Son of God, who is the Holy One of Israel and Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah), the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies. They did, very sadly. May JAH have mercy on their spirits.

I hope this helps and, again, peace to you!

YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

SA

Fortunately, AGuest, there is no conflict whatsoever, since the Catholic Church is every bit as much exclusively for Christ as you are. It is not for the Pope, or for the hierarchy, but for Christ, to whom the Pope and the bishops and the whole Church turn, just as much as you do, so that the Holy Spirit, whom you say was never involved in the Church, is in fact very much involved.

What's more, in the Catholic Church, just as throughout the whole of Christendom, he is not only involved but recognised! So, no need to worry on that score.

In fact, the Word of God being alive and active, and sharper than a two-edged sword, (Hebrews 4:12), as time goes by all will become clear since, as Gamaliel pointed out to his fellow members of the Sanhedrin in Acts 5:34, mankind, and the words of those who think themselves knowledgeable, have no power to overthrow God's will.

What will be will be.

Yet, you deny his voice, dear Char (peace to you!), as being toward those who belong to him, although the very same letter (to the Hebrews) says he SPEAKS. Or perhaps you are referring to the Bible as the "Word of God"... as some do? They (and perhaps you) are incorrect, dear one. The MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies, only has ONE Word: Christ, the Holy Spirit (John 1:1, 14; 17:17; 14:6; Hebrews 13:12; Revelation 19:13

But then, you were taught that, too, yes, that he speaks... along with the FACT that he's alive?

If so, what is he, the Word, saying to you NOW... and HOW is he doing that?

Again, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama

*looks at the thread topic*

_________________
To fear me is to love me....

Why do you say I deny his voice, Shelby?

Pup, looking at the thread title, I've already answered it! The thread has gone elsewhere, but others must have felt their contributions relevant to it in some measure.

How would you address the thread title, Pup?

Good dog, though! *pats head*

Well I'd bring this back to topic in that the people Jesus were admonishing did not believe he was the Messiah which is why they attributed his powers to Beelzebub. So perhaps prior relationship with Jesus and God was not necessary to blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

_________________
To fear me is to love me....

That's an interesting point.

Would you care to expand on it?

In the chapter the verse is taken from it was the Pharisees who made the comment about Beelzebub. They did not see him as the Messiah. The thinking that those who are ignorant or misled can not be held responsible doesn't fit here.

_________________
To fear me is to love me....

So your question is, were the Pharisees guilty of the sin against the Holy Spirit? Is that the nub of it?

I can't answer definitively, but I would think not, for all the reasons I've previously given.

What do you think?

Then again should this even be a concern as this seems to be uttered only once by Jesus? If the thinking is that Jesus is the mentioned Holy Spirit then all Jews who do not believe him to be the Messiah have commited blasphemy against the Holy Spirit by not acknowledging and ridiculing him.

_________________
To fear me is to love me....

When Peter denied Christ three times he blasphemed three times by turning his back to Jesus out of fear. Of course this is all contingent on the theory that the glorified Jesus was the Holy Spirit in question.

_________________
To fear me is to love me....

I find the concept of "The Unforgivable Sin" to be fascinating.

_________________
To fear me is to love me....

Because you do, dear Char (peace to you!). You have here. As well as have implied that others should, as well.



Those people were IN a relationship with God and Christ, dear Pup (peace to you!). The were under the Law... COVENANT. That Covenant established their relationship with God, dear one. To the extent they agreed with and adhered to ANY part of the Law, they were bound to ALL of it. And these were, by means of Moses. They AGREED to listen to God by means of listening to Moses. MOSES, however, TOLD them that God was going to raise up a prophet AFTER him... and that they were to LISTEN to that One:

“JaHVeH your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear, according to all you desired of JaHVeH your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of JaHVeH my God, nor let me see this great fire anymore, lest I die.’

“And JaHVeH said to me: ‘What they have spoken is good. I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him." Deuteronomy 18:15-19

God's holy spirit was with ALL of ISRAEL, although not necessarily IN all of them. IT was supposed to guide them. But they kept turning away from that spirit. When Christ came, though, he TOLD them who he was: the one Moses, the Psalms and the Prophets spoke about:

"You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. I do not receive honor from men. But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust. For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?” John 5:39-47

So, to the extent they rejected Christ, they rejected Moses... and thus, rejected God. To the extent they were in a relationship with God THROUGH Moses, they were in one with CHRIST, as well... THROUGH Moses:

"By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt; for he looked to the reward." Hebrews 11:24-26

Those who gave the power of my Lord to the ruler of the demons were in a relationship with God, dear one... and Christ.

I hope this helps!

Again, peace to you!

YSFS,

SA