xjwsforChrist

Ah, shoot, dear A (peace to you!); now I'll probably get blamed for that, too - LOLOLOL! Dang. Can't win... for losin'. Ah, well... que sera, sera...

Again, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama

Shelby.....your always the bad guy/gal just face it!!!!!! LOLOLOLOL (((smile)))

Justmom

Yeah, but wait... are YOU really "JustMom"??? No, I think you're really "AGuest" pretending to be "IDAMOM". Tomorrow, you'll post as "FinalCall"... and then maybe as "LifesWaterFree"!

Well, you ain't foolin' ME - I KNOW you're ALL really just Shelby trying to BS folks.

But I ain't that stoopid, lady!

LOLOLOL! Peace, chile'...

YSSFS,

Shellama, the quintessential exJW Internet "badguy" girl... LOLOLOL!

_________________
To fear me is to love me....

lol at pup...oh, y'all are funny.

Thanks for your reply, justmom. That's a great story and I think it might be helping me understand a little better.

Armand, very simply, yes.

I know the Bible very well indeed, and have many translations on my bookshelves, as well as a Greek New Testament.

I like the RCC and probably relate more to them than any other mainstream religion.
I was a RC for many years, by choice mind you.
Then I realized that, as much as I agree with the majority of their Catechism, I can't ignore the parts that I disagree with and the more I studied the more I disagreed.
I think the issues I have with them are symptomatic in every organized religion with a hierarchy.

I have no argument with you, Paul. I really value your input here.

If it came over that I was having a go at you, I'm sorry. I know that you are well versed in non-Watchtower theology, as I am. Latterly, though, I've found myself, and the Catholic (universal) church, constantly under attack by some, mostly, I know, from a combination of exposure to the Watchtower and its prejudices, and other factors.

When our beliefs are called into question, it is always a "hot" topic and rightly so.
This is why I always try to NOT call into question what people believe but to understand WHY they believe it.
I recall this parable:


Why?

First off I am NOT making an accusation that ANYONE is a "weed", that is the first thing to be clear about and, IMO, a crucial matter in that parabel tends to be overlooked and that is:
Only Christ KNOWS who are the weeds.
He warns us that in our zeal we may "uproot" the good along with the bad and that is NOT acceptable.
When HE decides the time is right HE will tell those HE decides to.

Look, we can be as convinced in what we believe as we want to BUT there is ONE fact that NO ONE can deny here:
We are NOT infallible, we are NOT perfect and we DO make mistakes.
Lets us ALL keep that in mind, keep it very clear in our minds.
Remember, perhaps JW's can think that what they do isn't "their fault" because they are only "following the anointed" but we here do know better, don't we?
WE will answer for what we do, especially to each other.

As you know, I openly call myself a Catholic and believe that ALL those that believe and proclaim Christ as their Lord and Saviour ARE part of the Church of Christ, regardless of denominations.

Chariklo:



Good. Let me ask you this then, Having read the Bible as you state you have, and knowing what the Bible DOES SAY, why do you disagree with its contents? I should think that reading the Bible would give you some insight as to some of the conversations going on here in this thread or on this board. For example, to say that the “vomit” statement is not RCC theology is very misleading on your part. The “vomit” statement is in the RC Bible. The “vomit” statement was made by Christ. Therefore, IT IS RCC theology. How can you say it is not RCC theology? Now I realize it may not be proclaimed from the housetops but that, nonetheless, does not make it non-RC theology.

RCC theology says that a disciple of Christ is not to call anyone on earth “Father.” It’s in their RC Bible. Yet, RC theology CONTRADICTS the words of Christ who made this statement. Who is a person going to believe, supposed to believe? RCC theology that CONTRADICTS its own theology? Their Bible says not to do this; their extra-biblical theology says TO DO THIS, but Christ words say NOT TO DO THIS. What is a disciple to do? Believe and follow the contradicting theology of the RCC? or Christ who made the statement?

In many areas of its own theology, the Watchtower Society does the same kind of thing as the RCC. The Bible says “this,” but the Society says “that.” Who is a disciple to believe?

I think I will go with what Christ SAYS rather than anyone else or any other organization.

--Armand


PSacto:

You make an excellent comment regarding the WORDS OF OUR LORD. (As an aside, these are words from the RCC’s Bible. Catholic theology here plain and simple.)



I couldn’t agree with you more!!! Yet, hasn’t the RCC DONE EXACTLY THAT, done that which the “man” in Christ’s parable said NOT TO DO? In CONTRADICTION to what the “owner” in the parable stated (to wait UNTIL the “harvest”), in its attempt to pull up the “weeds” from out of their RC churches. Over the many centuries, how many wheat has the RCC uprooted and killed? Only God knows the full count.



YES! So why has the RCC done its own harvesting before the appointed time instead of waiting for the “owner” to send in his own harvesters?



Yuh think? Misguided ZEAL!!! What was it the apostle Paul stated about “misguided zeal”? Having read the Bible, Chariklo might know the answer to that question. Char, do you remember what Paul stated about misguided zeal?



Yep.



Yes we will.



And, of course, you are free to call yourself that which you will. However, you are mistaken in your belief and understanding that “ALL those that believe and proclaim Christ as their Lord . . . ARE part of the Church of Christ. . . .”

Note Matthew 7:21-23. Now, remember, these are the words of the one whom we claim to be Our Lord:

"…21Not every one that said to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity."

So . . . what that means contradicts what you just stated, PSacto. There are many who call themselves Christians and even who have done some pretty good stuff. However, for reasons known to Christ, many will be rejected and are thus not part of the Church of Christ even when they think they are.

And remember to, that Christ “calls out” those that belong to him. He calls them from out of their “pens” (denominations). Note John 10:1-10:

"10 “Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2 The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.” 6 Jesus used this figure of speech, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them.

7 Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.[a] They will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full."

I’m jus’ saying. . . .

--Armand

Good morning my brother Paul.....

I do understand this to mean then......that the WTBS is part of this church of CHRIST as well!

After all, they DO believe in CHRIST, they DO proclaim Him as their savior!

Just a thought
Justmom

Really? Because Paul himself says that all those that believe and proclaim Christ as Lord are sealed by the HS.

Note what I said: Believe AND proclaim, not one or the other but BOTH.



Yep and that is quite clear that not ALL that call Christ Lord are followers of Christ, this we know.
But WHO makes that call?
You? Me? anyone but Christ?
I think only Christ can make that call, don't you?



So, it falls on CHrist to make the final call, agreed?
Till then I will simply accept that all those that believe and proclaim Christ as His and not try to "play God" and decide for myself.




And I am just saying that if WE were to have our "Christianity" judged by the standards that WE impose on others when WE, quite incorrectly, judge them as "true believers", how would we do?

I for one am very well aware of my glaring failures in the faith department and would NEVER presume to judge the faith and belief of another.
Until Christ decides for himself then I will accept the belief and proclamation of those that have chosen Christ as their Lord and Saviour and accept them as my brothers and sisters in His Church.

This may not be anyone else's way, but is it mine.

Now, that said does that mean I can't judge their actions?
No, that is incorrect, I CAN and MUST judge their actions.
What I can't do is judge their faith or judge THEM at all, that is for Christ, not for me.

Proclamations and beliefs are INDIVIDUALISTIC, not "corporate".
Do I believe that any JW that in their heart truly believes that Christ is their Lord and Saviour is part of the Body of Christ?
Yes, Yes I do because Christ would NEVER turn away anyone, no matter how misguided, if their faith in Him is real.
I do NOT believe that one can proclaim and believe without having/choosing to have a personal relationship with Christ and because of that and because so many JW's put the WT between them and Christ I do feel that many are not as close to Christ as they think but that is between them and Christ and I KNOW that He is there for them.

In John 10:10, Christ stated:

The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full."

In contrast to what Christ Himself does, what people or organizations “steal and kill and destroy”? Does not the History speak for itself?

Note what Christ stated at Matthew 7:15-23, along with “my dicta”:

15 “Watch out for false prophets. [Religious people claiming/arrogating authority.] They come to you in sheep’s clothing [vestments and all their special garb], but inwardly they are ferocious wolves [mean sons of . . . .]. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. [Okay.] Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. [And there you have it!]

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

--Armand